The future of SAB.

[MORG]

What's going to happen to all the information that's collated here on our beloved SAB forums?

Are there long-term plans? What happens if Torsten finds God and leaves us all to dedicate himself to the holy life?

Will SAB's information exist in 10, 20, 50, 100, 1000 years or become lost?

If it is perpetuated, what form will it take? Who will be able to access it?

Interpret as you will.

I suppose my queries stem from the more basic question as to the future of online information itself.

There's alot of information here that could be very useful for alot of people for a very long time, it would be a great shame for it to disappear. There's also alot of information that's bound to bite most forum users in the ass should they run for PM.

Edited September 16, 2006 by MORG

[apothecary]

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=9260

[Torsten]

I would really like to see some sort of association or trust taking on the responsibilities of communal interests sometime in the near future. I set up an association with this purpose in mind, but it's existence has actually hindered rather than advanced things. The fundamental things I have learnt over the last few years is that VERY few poeple have any sort of depth to their ethnobotany committment, and those that do either have no money or little skill to actually contribute much in the areas that are in need.

I wrote about this recently too - that the vast majorty of folks just move through this community, use it for their needs and then move on. It used to frustrate me, but these days I just see it as that we provide a refuge for those people who need it WHEN they need it, and if they take something away with them that will shape their future then it was all worthwhile.

But coming to that realisation does not help with the logistical issues that need to be addressed on a continual basis. Like, the fact that folks spend hundreds of dollars a year on drugs, herb, etc, but can barely raise $100 per year to keep EBA running when eccles needed financial help. Maybe if he had felt that members valued the place enough to donate 0.1% of their annual drug budget, just maybe he would not have lost interest in it. We don't know if that's the reason, but surely it wouldn't have helped.

On the other hand you have people constantly complaining that having a forum associated with a business is a bad idea. Well, SAB is now the second longest running ethnobotany forum in the world (edot beats us by 3 months), so at least having the business behind the forums has created a great deal of stability.

So what will become of SAB in the future? We have made provisions for others to run the forums if something happens to us. We also highly value the information in the database and even if the forums come to an end, the information would be kept online by us, or by who we put in charge of it. Ideally I'd still like to see a trust of engaged people forming sometime in the future and then all such responsibilities would be transferred to it. I know these things have worked overseas, so I can't see why we can't do it here. rest assured we will try our best to make sure this stuff stays available.

Google has got us cached pretty well too, and I presume such massive database projects will in future be the main source of archival information.

[Torsten]

What happens if Torsten finds God and leaves us all to dedicate himself to the holy life?

I'm not looking, so I am unlikely to find him

There is only one thing I am really looking for and that is a revelation that connects time and wisdom. There is just never enough nitrous to work it out though

There's alot of information here that could be very useful for alot of people for a very long time, it would be a great shame for it to disappear. There's also alot of information that's bound to bite most forum users in the ass should they run for PM.

I always warn people that this forum is a permanent public record. I am agreeable to edit some stuff if we had some major legal changes that would unreasonably endanger members, but other than that everyone is responsible for their own stuff.

maybe in 30 years time the record on this forum will be a great election tool as it is your proof that you already saw through the lies and futility of the drug war in your youth and hence this strengthens your credentials as an open minded progressive leader.

hey, I'm an optimist

[gerbil]

But coming to that realisation does not help with the logistical issues that need to be addressed on a continual basis. Like, the fact that folks spend hundreds of dollars a year on drugs, herb, etc, but can barely raise $100 per year to keep EBA running when eccles needed financial help. Maybe if he had felt that members valued the place enough to donate 0.1% of their annual drug budget, just maybe he would not have lost interest in it. We don't know if that's the reason, but surely it wouldn't have helped.

I don't really think that's a fair comment at all T.

[_e_]

I don't really think that's a fair comment at all T.

Totally!

I think sometimes its easy to get dejected and disillusioned with SOME aspects of the online community.

However, sometimes it seems that if you focus on those aspects, its hard to see the true beauty of whats going on.

I know i personally have left the forums for good lengths of time due to personal discrpencies in the past.

The online community is in no way an accurate example of what is REALLY going on.

Sure u get an idea of who and what, and to some extent where.

But the reality is that there are only a certain number of people who have the time,desire and energy to continue being ACTIVE on the forums (for various reasons).

Many people come online to do some research or trading, but never post, or post infrequently and to no significant depth. Many people have never even been on the forums, and some even still have never used the internet.

This doesnt mean that their Ethno enthusiasm or entheogenic/psychadelic/plant medicine lifestyle isnt as REAL, ACTIVE and COMMITTED as someone who posts online. Nor does it mean that their contribution to the ethnobotany 'community' is any less.

Sometimes i think your sense of dejection towards the ethno community should be given a disclaimer 'the online community'. Because to be online and posting about plants for most is the first step, before actually getting out there and growing and collecting and utilising these sacred gifts.

Next time you consider this, ask yourself how many of those people who come in and out of the community without necessarily 'giving' something in particular, may in fact continue to grow share and utilise plants in the REAL WORLD.

Would this then still be such a selfish and terrible thing?

And as for the EBA thing. I personally donated PLENTY of stuff to the eba cause when i was active there, and i know i would have continued doing so if it wasnt for the fact that my time and energy seemed to be unreciprocated. Hence i shuffled on over here.

[_e_]

maybe in 30 years time the record on this forum will be a great election tool as it is your proof that you already saw through the lies and futility of the drug war in your youth and hence this strengthens your credentials as an open minded progressive leader.

hey, I'm an optimist

YEP, this is my future too... but im thinking more like 10 years...

revolution moves quickly, and in case you handnt noticed, time is accelerating!

(and no its not just because goes faster the older you get... thats a myth that tries to cover up the fact that there is no solidity in time)

[Torsten]

Gerbil and E - my comment about funding is not just related to the forums, but to virtually everything else that requires money in this community. However, forums ARE a good example. Spiritplants first started going downhill because of money troubles and eventually the owner just disappeared without handing over the keys. Other smaller groups disappear in a haze of poltics and funding issues. It happens all the time. less so now that websites are much cheaper to run, but it still happens. And not just in the ethnobotany community. So there is a pretty good precedent of a very high likelihood that these issues woudl have also featured in EBA. And if they didn't then so what? They would have featured in dozens of other groups you have watched implode or fizzle away.

But it goes beyond that. People whinge and whine about conference tickets, and they even whine about having to pay for plants that cost thousands of dollars to bring into their reach. Not everyone whines, but many do.

Then there is the issue of lack of support. Conferences sell merely 50 to 100 tickets to ethnobotanical enthusiasts. Doesn't matter if they are $50 or $150. Why should promoters (who run their asses off for weeks beforehand) also have to pay cash shortfalls for these events? Why do they have to run raffles to meet the budget? With the hudnreds of 'dedicated' members we have it should be a breeze to come up with $1000. That's only a dollar each of all the active member on this forum for example.

How about copyright? People will share media created by people within this community without any shame for the loss of compensation they cause. And then they complain that there are no good plant and drug documentaries. Who'd want to invest in a doco they know will not pay for itself? Only those who have money to spare or who are obsessed with the subject!

How about the association? we could't even get 5 people to nominate for positions, and the 5 that did are mostly waiting for the association to do something for them rather than the other way round.

E - I am not saying that people do not contribute. I am also well aware that many contribute in the 'next phase'. And I already said in my last post, I realise the progressive nature how people move from on-line to offline and into the world means they rarely put back in at the beginning, but put in plenty further down the line. The problem is that if there is a lack of support at the grass roots level there will also be less recruitement (for lack of a better word). Any political or social group that wants to survive and progress puts a lot of energy and resources into the entry level, because you need new blood to keep things vibrant and progressing. My point is that much of the investment you are talking about is done in more or less selfserving groups rather than in public service.

You can take any social, sport or political community and appreciate it for it's close connections and member support. But if the group does not support a public face, an opportunity for new engagement, and a lobby, then it will go stale and serve no purpose other than to the existing members.

There are maybe 10 people who actually work in public service of this community and maybe another 20 or so who will help out if asked directly - but most lack any sort of long term committment to provide financial or time support at the *entry level*.

Interesting thought that the only objection has come from people who are in fact committed and helping at entry level

[gomaos]

I have donated to EBA and would donate to SAB too if necessary. So would many other people I believe.

The main prob with EBA is that new member's can't join and post. Eccles won't fix and/or doesn't want it fixed, why, nobody knows... i guess politics of some kind... I have a hunch but rather not talk about it...

I have always said it would be good to have another australian ethnobotany-forum and still say.

EBA could still be fixed, but Eccles doesn't want it fixed.

It's only good for all us users of forum to have more choice, that's not putting SAB down at all.

The more information, the more different view-points, the better.

Egoplays and jelousy lead nowhere.

progressive expansion i say, gentle but steady...

[Torsten]

I have donated to EBA and would donate to SAB too if necessary. So would many other people I believe.

Fact is that when eccles asked for donations he only got very few. Barely enough to cover what was owing, let alone any future payments. It's all good and well to speculate about how generous people WOULD be if the situation hasn't actually ocurred, but in this case it has ocurred and we know that only very few people were in fact generous.

The main prob with EBA is that new member's can't join and post.

I am talking about the state of things BEFORE eccles disappeared. There was no sign up problem then. But there was also little generosity.

I have always said it would be good to have another australian ethnobotany-forum and still say.

EBA could still be fixed, but Eccles doesn't want it fixed.

I think the biggest problem is that EBA still exists. If it had gone down and died then I am sure we would have another forum by now. In fact I remember that apoth had already set one up. It's the fact that we keep hoping that eccles will relinquish control and let someone else take over which keeps everyone hoping. I think that is very damaging.

The sooner we get another Oz forum the better for everyone.

[apothecary]

T, there was definitely a signup problem the whole time, don't you remember signing me up my account back sometime in 2005?

I took the EBA replacement forum down. It had less than 10 posts and absolutely no interest.

It can be placed back up in less than an hour, and given a database dump of EBA, I can still have the entirety of EBA online on another host on better forum software in the space of that same hour.

As for generosity, are you sure? I recall just from Eds Eileen auction that way over $100 was raised.

[Torsten]

T, there was definitely a signup problem the whole time, don't you remember signing me up my account back sometime in 2005?

I am talking well before that. There were funding problems all along and there were no sign up problems for the first few years.

As for the amounts raised, there was never any spare.

[occidentalis]

I am talking well before that. There were funding problems all along and there were no sign up problems for the first few years.

As for the amounts raised, there was never any spare.

One of the main problems was a lack of communication and transparency in what happened to the money

I donated a good sum about 2 years ago. I received a heartfelt thanks but never any confirmation on what had actually happened to the money. 6 months or 1 year later eccles started requesting funding. I was not inspired to donate any more (although didn't have the funds anyway) because I had no idea where my previous donation had gone (it was enough to easily last 6 months or a year, with my understanding of site costs).

Several people then donated money or goods for raffles, and while I don't know what was communicated personally, there was never any public discussion of how the money had been spent. A short time later all the current problems started and eccles went AWOL. I'd say there is very little interest in the community for further donations now, but that is not because of lack of generosity.

[_e_]

I have to second creach's sentiments!