processes and timing of dmt in the body

[spiraleyes]

what happens when elves consume pharmahuasca?

lets say an elf had a light lunch then fasted for a few hours.

he then proceeded to take 150mg of moclobamide.

half an hour later another 150mg of moc.

about ten minutes later he swallowed the desired amount of dmt extracted from acacia.

what happens then?

this is a question about physical processes not a question about perception.

after the extract is swallowed it leaves the mouth and travels towards the stomache.

how is it processed from there,which organs do what?

and a rough estimation of timing.

how does the process differ from an ayahuasca brew made by boiling leaves?

much appriciation goes to anyone who can help me get these questions answered.

an elf i know is very curious about this and is having trouble finding this information.

thanks

[Torsten]

the elfspice travels to the stomach and is turned into the HCl salt, which is then watersoluble. This allows absorption through the stomach walls. It then travels around the blood steam unhindered for a while and some of it crosses into the brain where it invokes the elves. After some time (depending on inhibitor dosage), some of the MAO becomes free again and then neutralises the elfspice. The result is probably the deaminated carboxylic acid derivative (indole acetic acid??).

Without MAO inhibitor the deamination process would start straight away.

[spiraleyes]

Originally posted by Torsten:

the elfspice travels to the stomach and is turned into the HCl salt, which is then watersoluble.

so extracting the spice from viridis leaves with hcl acid,it is already in salt form.absorbing rapidly into the stomach walls?

the acacia extract would take about an hour or so to absorb?

does the liver and kidneys play a part?

theres a whisper getting about that an elf had some obtusifolia extract which he swallowed with moclobimide.

an hour or so passed and the magic was being involked.

the lights got brighter and many things were witnessed,then the experience subsided.

after about three hours or so from the point of injestion,feeling relativly base line,a wave came on.he felt it in his lower digestive system-bubble squelch.

starting to feel like more magic was coming on,the elf got shaky and started to get very uncomftable and hot,until he was down to his elf shorts.

he felt his heart going faster then he started to tremor and his muscles in his legs and back started to spasm-uncontrolably.

which he rode out drinking as much water as he could get down at a safe pace,while trying to cool his spine.

he felt very cold,but had a very high temperature.

his lower digestive system would move every now and again feeling very weird.

not a very good experience-VERY SCARY-seriously.

as calm as could be and still with clarity of mind,not paranoid but with much fear,he was unsure if death was near.

he was ok about two hours later, but shaken.then slept.

what couldve happened at that three to three and a half hour mark which couldve triggered such a reaction?

they say its happened twice,all the other elves were all ok.

please help this elf

[BIZZ]

Originally posted by spiraley :

as calm as could be and still with clarity of mind,not paranoid but with much fear,he was unsure if death was near.

VERY poetic. i like it, sounds as thoe the gnome was creativly freaked out.

(i am not condoneing the experiance)

[This message has been edited by BIZZ (edited 19 July 2002).]

[Torsten]

Originally posted by spiraleyes:

so extracting the spice from viridis leaves with hcl acid,it is already in salt form.absorbing rapidly into the stomach walls?

hmm, kinda. the problem is that the extraction requires excessive HCl, which would do damage on the way down. Dissolving in orange juice with a little bit of citric acid added is a better way to go, but also incrases the volume and the 'pukeability'. A purified tartrate would be the best I guess, but who is going to bother....

the acacia extract would take about an hour or so to absorb?

depends entirely on your stomach condition and what it is doing at the time. After fasting the tummy is usually quite inactive and even an aspirin may take a couple of hours to hit properly. taking a small amount of nutrient with it stimulates the tummy into action. I find drinking a bit of milk is very effective. On one had it protects the tummy lining and on the other hand it stimulates the tummy into activity.

does the liver and kidneys play a part?

not up to the deamination part. not sure where the metabolites go, but I presume urine.

theres a whisper getting about that an elf had some obtusifolia extract which he swallowed with moclobimide.

It's really hard to tell what the problem is here. It could be a reaction to the moclobemide, to the extract, to the combination, or a sideffect of the MAO inhibition.

When I took moclobemide (prescribed for depression) I sometimes got anxiety from it, especially if it was after I had binged on 'e's the days before. I would presume that the low serotonin levels allowed other monoamines to build up and cause the stimulation without antagonism. This used to happen about 2 hours after taking the moclobemide. A similar situation may occur if the pharmahuasca depletes your serotonin levels before the MAOI wears off.

The extract could be at fault as most extracts are made very crude and with lots of toxins. Not as bad when you smoke them, but possibly dangerous when ingested. Such toxins may not be absorbed in the tummy and may only cause problems once in the small intestine - thus the time lag. There are also natural oils and unknown substances in the extracts which we have no idea what they might be.

Sometimes when I used to trip, by GI system would shut down during the peak. Thus once the peak was over, I would then absorb another lot of material and it would start again. This is especially a problem if the material was put in gel caps which often don't dissolve properly. However the nature of freebase and the oils surrounding it (in the usually available extracts) may have a similar effect to the undissolved gelcap. Once peristalis is in full swing again more may be absorbed.

Second peaks are never as nice as the first and are often the cause of freak outs. This is simply due to the fact that you have spent most of your neurotransmitters and are running on empty. This may cause anxiety. Any anxiety in a trip can easily be translated into psychosomatic problems wich may result in real physiological problems.

The most likely reason is a combination of a pharmacological effect (such as the delayed second peak) and psychological amplification.

[spiraleyes]

hmm, kinda. the problem is that the extraction requires excessive HCl, which would do damage on the way down. Dissolving in orange juice with a little bit of citric acid added is a better way to go, but also incrases the volume and the 'pukeability'. A purified tartrate would be the best I guess, but who is going to bother....

i mean,does boiling up viridis leaves with a few drops of hcl acid,simmering,filtering,ready to drink,have the dmt in the same form as obtus. extract?

why does this brew come on much faster than the extract?

Second peaks are never as nice as the first and are often the cause of freak outs.

deffinitly not just a freak out.

there is something else going on.

toxins hmmm,all the other elves were ok.

but maybe this one is less tolerant. hmm??

what else could cause such a rise in body temperature,extreme spasming in spine and upper legs at that 2-3 hour mark?

thanks for your answers torsten,

at this point the elves are a bit worried.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by spiraleyes:

i mean,does boiling up viridis leaves with a few drops of hcl acid,simmering,filtering,ready to drink,have the dmt in the same form as obtus. extract?

yes, however you will find this most unpalatable. The most palatable form would be to boil it up with plenty of lime/lemon juice or a bit of citric acid.

The citrate is also soluble and will ion exchange readily when in tummy.

why does this brew come on much faster than the extract?

because it is alsready in a water soluble form that can eaisly cross the stomach wall into the bloodstream. The freebase is no water soluble.

deffinitly not just a freak out.

there is something else going on.

I didn't think it would be, but do not underestimate the power of the mind and the actual physiological reactiosn that can follow. For example, we know that LSD does not have any toxicity, however there are hospital reports of paralysis, spasms, severe abdominal cramping etc which are all real physical symptoms, probably caused as a result of an adrenaline flood caused by anxiety.

toxins hmmm,all the other elves were ok.

but maybe this one is less tolerant. hmm??

maybe different GI constitution. GI irritation/cramps can cause full blown anxiety attacks even without any drug present.

what else could cause such a rise in body temperature,extreme spasming in spine and upper legs at that 2-3 hour mark?

the temp is not an important indicator as any increase in metabolism or problem with toxicity can cause this. It can also be caused by tyramine buil up, but is unlikely with moclobemide.

You should also look at the material in question. if you tried the same with viridis leaves and then got a similar reaction, the problem is likely to be with the moclobemide (test on lower doses). If it turns out to be the extract, then maybe purifying it may help. Failing this, you can always smoke it once MAO inhibited and work your way up from that. This would also eliminate delayed peaks.

obviously this can all be dangerous so it is all hypothetical and should only be attempted by real elves in countries where legal.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by Torsten:

For example, we know that LSD does not have any toxicity, however there are hospital reports of paralysis, spasms, severe abdominal cramping etc which are all real physical symptoms, probably caused as a result of an adrenaline flood caused by anxiety.

My llama found a definite increase in distressing physical symptoms while on pharmahuasca- chest pains, liver pains etc. After a bit of navigational analysis, she tells me that it was happenning everytime she got 'too close' to several personal issues that were concerning her, and were the reason she had chosen pharmahuasca as a diagnostic aid.

Once she reaslised the correlation, and told herself not to worry about the symptoms, they stopped, and she could move past them to examine the things which were bothering her much more easily

She tells me this is not a reason to ignore undue physical discomfort at any time, especially during the ingestion of sacraments, but rather to bear in mind that such symptoms can be the mind protecting itself from the investigation of sensitive issues.

She also suggested that one of the best ways to monitor physical distress during an experience is to have a safe, trusted and sober person presiding, preferably one who has similar experiences re dispensing the sacrament concerned.

My llama lives in a location where such ingestion is legal, though she seems to have problems communicating via keyboard as they are not designed for cloven footed ruminants.

[t st tantra]

are gel caps ment to bypass the stomach,for absorbsion by the GI tract?and this is not what is wanted?

t s t .

[Torsten]

Originally posted by t st tantra:

are gel caps ment to bypass the stomach,for absorbsion by the GI tract?and this is not what is wanted?

t s t .

No, they are supposed to dissolve in the stomach and dissolve quicly. However this is not always the case. if you tummy is in resting mode it may not attack the gel at all and the gel may just become soft and 'shrinkwrap' around the compound.

There are special types of gelcap coatings that do not dissolve in the tummy at all, thus bypassing the acid environment and then dissolving in the small intestine. These are called enteric coatings and are used on some sensitive compounds.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by Torsten:

if you tummy is in resting mode it may not attack the gel at all and the gel may just become soft and 'shrinkwrap' around the compound.

My llama had that happen to her at a party. Ate a gelcapped comestible item on a completely empty stomach...hmmm, she thinks, nothing happenning...two hours later and the party's still boring and nothing's still happenning.

So she rode home about sixty kays, and about twenty metres from the door got hit with a full body pelt, made it inside OK but spent the rest of the morning cursing herself while simultaneously grinning like a neurochemically augmented maniac.

The best access to the best info in the world won't help even the hardiest cloven footed ruminant if she is too stupid to pay attention to what she's bloody well been told. Now she makes sure she has something to eat, low protien, low fat, high carb, like a health food bar, if she intends augmenting her diet with colourful supplements

[theobromos]

And a bit of salt?

[coin]

pickled ginger (sliced ginger, squeeze lemon, grind rock salt) & hot 'tea'..

have to concur with the unreliability of gel caps..especially if they're compressed/packed really tight..not a good idea..very annoying..all sorts of strange low level time-release, etc

solubility differences with gelatine caps vs vege caps?

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 22 July 2002).]

[woof woof woof]

Hey DL, aren't health food bars low in carbohydrates and high in proteins?

(Quoting Darklight: something to eat, low protien, low fat, high carb, like a health food bar)

[spiraleyes]

you want all the spice to be absorbed in the stomach not the intestines.

is that right?

ive heard people say drinking milk stops some things from being absorbed or atleast delays absorbtion.

i know with mushrooms,when i was in amsterdam,washing them down with milk seemed to make for a smoother come on.

but maybe not as strong.

hmmm..dont really know what im trying to say here,just thinking with my fingers.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by brian:

Hey DL, aren't health food bars low in carbohydrates and high in proteins?

Dunno bout where you are, but over here 'health' food bars are a sort of combo, honey, dried fruit, oats, coconut and nuts- that sort of thing

Some of them aren't all that healthy, they just have piccys of fruit on the front to fool ppl. check the ingrerdients list. But as a readily avail source of carbohydrates they're great

[Torsten]

Originally posted by spiraleyes:

you want all the spice to be absorbed in the stomach not the intestines.

is that right?

depends on how quickly you want it to hit. slow absoption isn't such a bad thing. It is certainly more enjoyable.

ive heard people say drinking milk stops some things from being absorbed or atleast delays absorbtion.

sure, possible. I guess lemon juicce is the best thing to wake your tummy up and aid absorption, however it is also a hell of a lot more likely to make you puke and give you tummy and gut problems.

[t st tantra]

i notice that most native users take a combined extract,while others recommend predosing with moai,followed by tryptamine about a half hour later.

would anyone care to compare these 2 approaches?

t s t .

[Torsten]

any tryptamine taken before FULL MAO inhibition is immediately destroyed by MAO and thus wasted. Knowing this, and considering that most people have problems getting copious quantities of tryptamines for free, it is prudent to inhibit first and then take the tryptamine. Traditionla folks usually don't have a tryptamine supply problem

There really is no difference except maybe that the combined brew probably comes on a little more gently and gradually.

[coin]

perhaps they also appreciate a possible metaphysical union or alchemical marriage that takes place..

also possibly the long, slow, cooking time allows the two plants & admixtures to "settle their differences" in the pot

[Torsten]

personally ( and I must stress that this is just my opinion), I believe that way too much emphasis is put on the spirit side of plants (eg "settling their differences").

I think that in most cases this is a poor western interpretation of an archaic system. When Hofmann gave Maria Sabina some psilocybin in a capsule she remarked of the experience that Hofmann had captured the spirit of the mushroom in his creation. Now if a traditional shaman cannot tell the difference or at least doesn't have a problem with the difference, then why should we. Our understanding of such things is much less developed and yet we insist on emphasising it.

Please do not misunderstand this though. I don't mean we should reduce everything down to its core components. I am a firm believer in whole plant medicines (where these are applicable and unless the whole plant is less healthy for the body), but I think we are also taking things a little too far. For traditional cultures the spirits were explanations they needed for something they could not explain any other way. We know a little more about the workings of these compounds and this should be incorporated into our lives.

It would be interesting to do a double blind study with shamans and neoshamans, giving them brew made from whole plants prepared traditionally, and crude extracts made the modern way. And then see who can pick what they had. if we look closely at traditionla cultures, they have in most cases where they were able to made use of concentration techniques. Even traditional ayahuasca is concentrated, not to mention snuffs and curare. I think our advanced methods are simply an extension of this development.

All this is not to say that there are no spirits in the plants. I think this very much depends on the definition of spirits. It appears to me that the term had a different meaning for shamans like Maria Sabina than it does for most westeners.

[eccles]

well said Torsten...

Also, who is to say that pure compounds do not have a spirit? it would sure make a hell of a lot of sense if they did...

and who is to say that, just as humans can be possessed by demon spirits (or at least some other kind of spirit than their own), that plants can't be possessed by the spirit of a compound? I mean... the spirit of the plant could be taken over by, or give itself up to, or just be programmed to be a conformer to, or complimentary with, the spirit of a powerful molecular presence that it becomes subject to?

again, just thinking with my fingers (to borrow that delightful phrase

[coin]

all i meant to say is that sometimes concept & symbolism are an important part of the trip & preparation, and we need not always be appealing to the logical mind..these journeys are often very much about taking ourselves past that, and the limitations so frequently imposed thereby...i am certainly not an animist...but if the symbolism of "marriage" was important to me, and i had no "tryptamine supply" problems, and the effects of the brew resulting from this preparation were not found to be subjectively inferior, then this confluence of factors would lead me as such, regardless of prudence & our more advanced understanding..fuck double blind studies

also, by settling their differences..in a way i meant this as a cooking metaphor - one aspect of this is simply the way it cooks down.. if one cooks a bowl of rice, and also cooks a pot of soup..mixing the rice into the soup then eating this blend, is quite different to cooking the rice in the soup..the homogeneity of the latter preparation is much easier to digest.

but heck, never mind

maria sabina obviously had no idea about dosing procedures outside of the usual ritual she'd practised since childhood..because of the delayed psilocybin onset (due to a different vehicle of delivery), she was worried, confused & doubting..she may not have had a problem with the difference once hoffman upped her dosage (because of his inability to communicate the dynamics of the situation) but perhaps by saying "spirit" of the mushroom, she meant the essence..ie, the most predominantly active constituent.

however, she also said other strange contradictory stuff, such as that the mushrooms would question & reprimand her if she didn't eat their "feet" (the dirty bottom bits)..i never read of her saying anything about the mushrooms being annoyed that this time she had forsaken their body..

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 04 August 2002).]