changa???

[TIHKAL]

so i got a neat email from trout today he pointed out to me that...

"One of the most amazing things I encountered while in Oz was people taking dried caapi leaf and making it into a 30-50% smoking blend with Acacia resin (using alcohol or something to get it to stick to the leaf) The results were somewhere in between smoked acacia and oral ayahuasca in effects and duration. Much more clear than oral ayahuasca athough."

you guys have been holding out on the rest of us havent you?

this sounds great! what i am wondering is whether hes talking about is acacia resin is this a natural product of a specific acacia like sap or gum or is he talking about and extracted resin. this is really interesting to me!

when is some one going to send me some acaica resin??!!!

[TIHKAL]

so i got a neat email from trout today he pointed out to me that...

"One of the most amazing things I encountered while in Oz was people taking dried caapi leaf and making it into a 30-50% smoking blend with Acacia resin (using alcohol or something to get it to stick to the leaf) The results were somewhere in between smoked acacia and oral ayahuasca in effects and duration. Much more clear than oral ayahuasca athough."

you guys have been holding out on the rest of us havent you?

this sounds great! what i am wondering is whether hes talking about is acacia resin is this a natural product of a specific acacia like sap or gum or is he talking about and extracted resin. this is really interesting to me!

when is some one going to send me some acaica resin??!!!

i got an email back from trout saying that it was an extraction i see know. i was thinking that perhaps there was a natural product like the tree sap or something. i am not to with it with acacias thus being here amoung you all.

i am fascinated though by this method of ingestion. do you guys get pretty good yeilds of caapi in Oz?

[occidentalis]

From what I've heard changa tends to be a made by a process where crystal tryptamines are dissolved in a NP solvent which is poured over some caapi material and evaporated.

[Rev]

do you guys get pretty good yeilds of caapi in Oz?

yeah certainly of leaves

good stem might take 4+ years to grow but the leaves are there end of first season in abundance

which is also what makes D cabrerana so very interesting

in a frost free subtropical climate Capi is a rampant vine

[TIHKAL]

yeah certainly of leaves

good stem might take 4+ years to grow but the leaves are there end of first season in abundance

which is also what makes D cabrerana so very interesting

in a frost free subtropical climate Capi is a rampant vine

for me living in a temperate zone. i think its worth a shot trying to grow it as long as i am just harvesting leaves. if i was growing it for vine harvest it just wouldnt be practical i would have to grow alot of them. and ayahuasca is something that people work with alot when they are working with it. i have been looking into growing mimosas and just useing thier leaves instead of the root bark. the entheogen review says that it seems to work pretty well. but i have not heard any first hand acounts of people makeing use fo the mimosa leaves. if it did work it would be a hell of a lot more sustainable.

any one ever try that?

[Pelinster]

What do people here think of the potential this stuff has to stir up some bad publicity?

Say for an example - a sample lands into the wrong hands. Once analysed it would be sure to get someone's attention, especially considering the scheduling some of these medicines have unjustly received. I would imagine such attention could be a major blow to any Shaman facing future legal difficulties.

/me imagines picking up a national daily journal only to read a huge three letter acronym sporting the front page

[TIHKAL]

What do people here think of the potential this stuff has to stir up some bad publicity?

Say for an example - a sample lands into the wrong hands. Once analysed it would be sure to get someone's attention, especially considering the scheduling some of these medicines have unjustly received. I would imagine such attention could be a major blow to any Shaman facing future legal difficulties.

/me imagines picking up a national daily journal only to read a huge three letter acronym sporting the front page

my question would be what effect would the bad publicity have?

if its made with local native wild crafted plants which cant really be controled. and as far as i know caapi is easily grown and produces alot of leaf, and is not controled. so even if it did get bad publicity then all they could do is perhaps bust you for harvesting leaves and bark from acacias. which is easy to get around. there is such an abundance of psilocybe mushrooms in the fall here where i live the law has had to adapt due to the insane amount of people picking and useing them. as long as they are fresh and not in a platic bag dried your good to go! even if they catch you picking them!

as allways dont let them scare you into compiance. the bad publicity thing allways gett me riled up ( riley is my middle name....)

change the laws fight for your rights. cautionary statements like this are cool and need to be thought about but they remind me way to much of the fact that this is a global war we are fighting in and most of us fail to see that and do something about it. we just constantly retreat. hide in the closest...becuase of fear of legle persacution. im not trying to lay some harsh trip on you Pilinester. to some degree your in the right to ask the question and to bring awareness that its a secret war we are fighting and we have to keep things under wraps so we can contiue to fight another day. but i get so tired of there haveing to be fear associated with this work. what you said though just reminded me that there have been way to many causualties on our side of this war on "drugs".

paz :ph34r:

[Amulte]

changa hit public stream a few years back as bussinessmans lunch, i remember Tripple J going on about "an extract of Australian natives soaked in various other plant matters is smoked to produce a short but intense trip lasting as long as a lunch break."

stirred up a little fuss but died down. dont think people outside this comunity found any appeal or just couldnt get it. copped some bad publicity then.

Edited May 22, 2006 by Amulte

[Alice]

it is supprising how few people outside our little community know about acacia resin. even those people who have been consuming cannabis and chems for many years look at you blankly if u mention it.... so unknown it is.

it appears to me, in australia anyway, that probably 95%+ of the knowledge is confined to these forums...

Edited May 23, 2006 by Alice

[folias]

Its all kind of relegated to small sectors of the public and it seems to do a great deal of good as the material contains a lot of the effects of "ayahuasca" healing.

I'm sure there could be incidents of bad publicity (some people can be really stoopid!) but like Amulate said, folks here after hearing about the bad publicity (it was seemingly a real stretch for them to say anything "bad"!) a few years ago, drew lots more attention to the businessmans lunch, of people who deliberately sought out said material!

I don't think tryptamines could be as easily publically demonised like "Ice" or "meth", which are real and evident public health problems, stuff like natural tryptamine smoking mixes seem to have very obvious benefits for human beings, seemingly beyond and above other compounds if "safety" issues and such are taken into account.

From various legal cases in Australia and talks to various peoples in the know, its clear to see that in Australia, at least, there is enough common sense in the intellegensia of law enforcement and justice system to differentiate between natural use of psychedelics which is conscious and by the majortiy of reports, beneficial on every level, and an abuse of synthetic substances that cause create much damage within individuals and the community.

Saying all that, THIKAL, I think there a lot of people in Australia who are very wary of the consumeristically bratty consumeristic bad boy/girl attitudes of people in other countries have to "drugs" and the differences in innate policy that law enforcement have... I have been posting at bluelight recently (despite the consistant valley girl level rudeness and abuse!), just to actually get some clear information out to these (overwhelmingly American) kids who seem to be beginning to take to DMT and ayahuasca so that this information is on the public record, so that true "harm reduction" is communicated here and some semblance of information which allows right use and respect of these compounds.

Julian.

[Pelinster]

as allways dont let them scare you into compiance. the bad publicity thing allways gett me riled up ( riley is my middle name....)

change the laws fight for your rights. cautionary statements like this are cool and need to be thought about but they remind me way to much of the fact that this is a global war we are fighting in and most of us fail to see that and do something about it. we just constantly retreat. hide in the closest...becuase of fear of legle persacution. im not trying to lay some harsh trip on you Pilinester. to some degree your in the right to ask the question and to bring awareness that its a secret war we are fighting and we have to keep things under wraps so we can contiue to fight another day. but i get so tired of there haveing to be fear associated with this work. what you said though just reminded me that there have been way to many causualties on our side of this war on "drugs".

paz :ph34r:

TiHKAL, your point is definitely worth bringing up and I appreciate what you are saying. I only know it too well. Part of my 'underground' instinct comes from having spent time incarcerated for 'drug' related matters. This won't stop me from furthering my relationship with the universe and testing the boundaries of my own consciousness, but I know too well that we do have something to fear (if we choose to), if only for being different. Sometimes it's easy to react in this way when you have observed what you perceived as negative outcomes in a related circumstance previously. I look forward to a day when I don't react in such a way. If it were to come to it I would still stand by my beliefs regarding what I believe to be my right to ingest medicinal plants, however I am in no rush to make such a stand. I dream of a day when people will look back on the war on personal freedoms and see it for what it really was. I imagine these people will feel great sorrow for the suffering felt by those who have been victims of the current anti-'drugs' climate.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Pelinester

[PD.]

I have been posting at bluelight recently (despite the consistant valley girl level rudeness and abuse!), just to actually get some clear information out to these (overwhelmingly American) kids who seem to be beginning to take to DMT and ayahuasca so that this information is on the public record, so that true "harm reduction" is communicated here and some semblance of information which allows right use and respect of these compounds.

Julian.

Haha. I have seen a few of your posts at bluelight.

I too got sucked into this abyss of myths and ignorance, the whole forum is supposed to be about harm reduction and all the little girls and boys there just want to argue. I gave up on it cause its all about dick sizing and who (pretends to)knows more. The majority of them are kids still at home with mum and dad, its little shits such as these that cause all the trouble when they fuck around with things they dont, or dont want to understand.

[TIHKAL]

TiHKAL, your point is definitely worth bringing up and I appreciate what you are saying. I only know it too well. Part of my 'underground' instinct comes from having spent time incarcerated for 'drug' related matters. This won't stop me from furthering my relationship with the universe and testing the boundaries of my own consciousness, but I know too well that we do have something to fear (if we choose to), if only for being different. Sometimes it's easy to react in this way when you have observed what you perceived as negative outcomes in a related circumstance previously. I look forward to a day when I don't react in such a way. If it were to come to it I would still stand by my beliefs regarding what I believe to be my right to ingest medicinal plants, however I am in no rush to make such a stand. I dream of a day when people will look back on the war on personal freedoms and see it for what it really was. I imagine these people will feel great sorrow for the suffering felt by those who have been victims of the current anti-'drugs' climate.

just recently watched the ayahuasca video on google. man that just charged me up. the shuar guy ready to die to protect the forest and yantra protestng publicly in amsterdam to keep ayahuasca legal, that was just really amaizing! also keeping in consideration of the UDVS victories in america in keeping ayahuasca legal. these are great victories. i think italy recently had a vicotry with aya as well. not to mention the vicoties that MAPS is makeing.

i dont want to make a big ignorent personal stand myself. but i have lent support to the groups that are doing so. like maps and the cognitive liberty group. if groups like these began in other democratic countries alot could be done globaly through workng together. maps fascilitates for global change i know for sure.

it was about 7 years ago after an pretty life changeing trip that i realized i couldnt just sit back and let it all go down with out a fight. and i am glad to see that there are others willing to put it on the line and through down. not all of us can do that in an extreme but i do think that we can organize and make a differance. its just not good for any one for it all to be underground and in the closet. private and secret only to the point of personal security. but organizations can complete alot of the work if its done intelligently and carefully. these forums are great but they are no substitute for actualy getting your hands dirty in getting the work that needs to be done done. all i can do is volunteer and support the few groups that are trying to do something. i have had ideas though for other groups. but all i am is an idea guy really.

one idea was to form a legal aid group thats pratects the religious freedoms of entheogen workers. kinda like a union. those that belong to the group pay dues and have a legal library or are connected to one based on entheogenic drug policy as well as a lawyer who is there for every member. the aim is not to make some stand to make things legalized or decrimminalized but just in case those that do get busted can have a lawyer who is educated and pro entheogen and who can be of instant support incase of a bust. this could turn a frown upside down. a misreable mistake into something that could potentialy change drug laws for good. with enough members backing it the legal fees could be handled easily because it would be a nonprofit legal defense and social change group. just an idea... but one i have been working on for a while... :ph34r:

[Pisgah]

these forums are great but they are no substitute for actualy getting your hands dirty in getting the work that needs to be done done.

These forums are all about getting your hands dirty. Nobody will have any leg to stand on if you don't understand how to cultivate the plant and fungus teachers.

This is important stuff we are doing, cultivating and sharing botanical knowledge. There is the political, there is the chemical, there is the shamanic, but it all begins with the plant, fungus or animal excretion.

Make no mistake here. This whole "growing plants" thing is exceedingly important.

[TIHKAL]

These forums are all about getting your hands dirty. Nobody will have any leg to stand on if you don't understand how to cultivate the plant and fungus teachers.

This is important stuff we are doing, cultivating and sharing botanical knowledge. There is the political, there is the chemical, there is the shamanic, but it all begins with the plant, fungus or animal excretion.

Make no mistake here. This whole "growing plants" thing is exceedingly important.

i agree thats very true.

[Pisgah]

Word.

[themagicmushroom]

could one make a smoking mix with beta-carboline containing acacia + methylated tryptamine containing acaica to the same end?

[stonewolf]

it appears to me, in australia anyway, that probably 95%+ of the knowledge is confined to these forums...

I think thats a amajor underestimate of the amount of people using the stuff, there is far more of a community around it than you would think. It spreads through word of mouth quite readily, I was introduced to it by an acidhead who loved it, he had introduced a fair few people to it who had in turn told others...it is still well within the bounds of those who enjoy their hallucogens though. But i guess my point is you would be suprised how many people smoke acacia resins.

[-YT-]

"I think thats a amajor underestimate of the amount of people using the stuff, there is far more of a community around it than you would think. It spreads through word of mouth quite readily, I was introduced to it by an acidhead who loved it, he had introduced a fair few people to it who had in turn told others...it is still well within the bounds of those who enjoy their hallucogens though. But i guess my point is you would be suprised how many people smoke acacia resins."

I dont know if personally i would call it a "Community" as such in the general defination of the term..maybe a loose network of people.. That said there is a Community of people who do use and treat this Teacher/medicine with Intent etc. But Yes there is alot more people becoming aware of Tripitamines and using them as such, but again the question comes back to there intentions.. That said it has so much to offer Us to further ourselfs and connection with Nature. What suprises me is the amount of ppl who relatively know little about the natural Plants habitat, growth, tradition etc and are just after a quick blast of fractalling Geometric patterning.. They want something for nothing.

It does spread by word of mouth with amazing speed but with that comes the spread of knowledge into the hands of those who are less uh caring and connected with nature. The point of this Rant if Any at all Is that Tripitamines are becoming more and more known to the wider community but it makes me ponder what peoples intentions are.. if only for themselves and not the further development of this community and survival and continuation of such beautiful and powerfull life forms.

What T replied with in the other thread really makes one think.

I find this whole hipocrisy sickening, but then again it is not surprising as *most* people in pass through this community as some sort of rite of passage, but really have little understanding of it and contribute little to either the community or the plant world. It's all about what the community and plant world can do for them. I mean many of the people who simply pass through in search of themselves. I wonder what they find when they realise that threatened plants are part of their own development.

.

[Torsten]

What T replied with in the other thread really makes one think.

I find this whole hipocrisy sickening, but then again it is not surprising as *most* people in pass through this community as some sort of rite of passage, but really have little understanding of it and contribute little to either the community or the plant world. It's all about what the community and plant world can do for them. I mean many of the people who simply pass through in search of themselves. I wonder what they find when they realise that threatened plants are part of their own development.

.

I am glad someone picked up on that as it is something that has been on my mind a lot lately. There is a core group of really dedicated people who really are a community (or maybe several communities, or just one large very fractured community), and then there are the vast majority of temporary 'hangers on'. And I don't mean that in a derogative way!! The sheer number of people who have passed through this community and the associated lifestyle and mind set is astounding. In fact it is about the same as what I experiened in the rave scene. In the rave scene it was simply the process of growing up, moving on, getting serious, etc that caused a high rate of attrition. In the EB scene there are similar processes at work.

When I look at the lives of many of my old rave buddies I wonder what they really gained from their 2 years on the wild side (mind you, acid was still prominent in the rave scene in those days). Many are in dead boring job, have the same mortgage as everyone else, too many kids, high consumption lifestyle, and generally they lead a conservative life. And that is where the big difference is. I was wondering whether the core EB group isn't just wasting their time trying to make an impact as most noobs just wander off again a few months/years later. However, it turns out many people in the EB scene seem to take a piece of it with them in their later development, which does seem to make it all worthwhile.

The problem now is to make the core group understand that they should not get frustrated with the lack of long term dedication most 'members' of this wider community seem to exhibit. They are not here for the long term dedication. However, most are also not here for the short term thrill either - although undoubtedly some are. We need to realise that all we are doing is facilitating a step in the growing up process. That most

'initiants' won't hang around for long and that we have done our job even if only a few of them take a small part of what they have learnt and integrate it into their future lives. We simply serve a purpose. Like parents, teachers, school bullies, rolemodels, shaman, 'Young Liberals', etc we help youngsters to find their own path. But I think it is almost impossible to ask them to give anythign in return - it's not their time to do so.

I presume that most of this will have little effect for 10 or 20 years and maybe the greatest effect will be on the next generation (history would indicate so).

[folias]

Young Tripper,

Spot on post!

I have heard a reports of a dude in Melbourne walking past a alleyway and smelling the unmisktable distinct smell of changa!

He looked down the alleyway and saw a hottet up car, with Jay Z or some such homey ho muzak blarring out of the sub-multidimensional woofers... and some gold chained up dudes in the car sucking down some changa!

He was shocked and and horrified and taken aback and splurted out words to the effect of his multiplied grief that such wonderful material was going to perpetuate such an egoic splurge of a context seemingly so disassociated from its origins that the smokers of said herbs were surely going to hell!

His expressed anger and outrage were immense and I believe he left the scene very rapidly after some flurried words...

The cat really is out of the bag with this stuff... and there are heaps of issues involved with that...

I have seen people be missionaries with it... and then really pull back after seeing it was only encouraging the persons tendancies...

But I have also heard dozens and dozens of reports of "hallelujah!" (and also witnessed a lot too!)...people breaking decades old addictions...big healings only usually attributed to drunk Ayahuasca. (which makes sense as ayahuasca is usually present in the mix!) and often not seemingly attainable to normal forms of smoking freebase DMT.

Julian.

[MORG]

He was shocked and and horrified and taken aback and splurted out words to the effect of his multiplied grief that such wonderful material was going to perpetuate such an egoic splurge of a context seemingly so disassociated from its origins that the smokers of said herbs were surely going to hell!

His expressed anger and outrage were immense and I believe he left the scene very rapidly after some flurried words...

If this is a substance so valuable for growth, healing and development then perhaps it is what is most needed by those most corrupted by modern excess?

[findbuddha]

If this is a substance so valuable for growth, healing and development then perhaps it is what is most needed by those most corrupted by modern excess?

Is there any substance that will heal regardless of intention?

[apothecary]

If this is a substance so valuable for growth, healing and development then perhaps it is what is most needed by those most corrupted by modern excess?

You only get out what you put in.

Sometimes the product can kick your ass into submission anyway (even more likely to occur with something like changa), but if you project the "big rush hit" idea enough onto your changa experience, then that's what you get.

I like to think that the constituent tryptamines are working their magic regardless of intention, possibly subconciously...but real life experience indicates to me now that even extremely powerful tryptamine lessons can be forced into submission by the "hit" intent.

But depending on how you think about it...maybe there is a 'so what' factor involved.

Why should we project our beliefs of the drug on how other people use it. Some people here like to use it shamanically, for others it's an extremely personal experience and others again even have enough reverence that they are afraid to try it. Even in our shared reverence of this molecule there is diversity in how we all use it, and nobody is up in arms.

Gangstas ripping on changa are much more preferable to me than gangstas ripping on meth or coke! Or shootin' up H! And whether it happens or not, I reckon changa is more likely to initiate positive change in personality than the other refined illicit alkaloids available on the street these days.

Isn't this "business mans lunch" type trip what people foretold of in the 70's?

[stonewolf]

I don't know where I would fit in this picture being painted of an EB community exactly. I'm in it because the use of certain substances gives very interesting insights and new perspectives, though i find the a large amount are fleeting and unlikely to be lifechanging. I would also be in this for shits and giggles to some extent as well, i mean who doesn't enjoy intense visauls and your thoughts while your mind does a backflip. Thirdly alot of EB plants are asthetically pleasing and i want to grow them in my backyard. I also love researching the effects of psychoactive substances and how they work. The fact that a tiny amount of certain chemicals can cause your brain to act in certain bizarre and beautiful patterns is amazing. It at times feels like your moulding your brain out of its conventional form without knowing what the outcome will be.