Rattle caapi / Ayahuasca cascabel

[gtarman]

Hey hey.

Just wondering if anybody has ever seen this particular plant or has even second hand knowledge of it?

It sounds really cool, and it'd be great if we could get some doing the rounds in oz somehow. Seed-gathering expedition to Peru anybody?

[gtarman]

Still no replies 22 hours later haha.

Y'all are lucky I've done a HEAP of digging on this one

There is VERY little information available out there, and it's quite spread out

From the research I've done online though, I've deduced that it most likely grows in the Napo province of Amazonian Peru. It is referred to often as the strongest of all caapi strains, and one of the rarest as well. It's name is almost certainly a reference to Crotalus durissus - a South American tropical rattlesnake/pit viper, common name "Cascabel".

I've found three separate entities that make reference to the strain on their websites, two of which are Peruvian ayahuasca retreats claiming to use it in their brews, the third being a shamanic infomation database compiled by a single writer over many years.

I have emailed each of them (as nicely and respectfully as I could) with a request for more information on the strain's distinguishing features, growth and reproductive habits, and just maaaaybe obtaining some viable seeds if at all possible. Will share any information I receive on here.

Also, a resource I saw referenced on a few of these websites was a long out-of-print book about Shamanism in Amazonion Peru called "Vegetalismo". Thinking that this may contain the answers I was looking for, I tracked down a PDF copy, although after searching the document for all of the related terms I could think of, nothing surfaced. It was written in the mid 80's though, so I guess they didn't know much about different caapi strains back then. Anyway, if anybody wants a copy, feel free to PM me - I'm sure the book would still be of interest to some folks here, and you can't buy it anywhere.

Gtarman out-

EDIT: It just struck me that this could perhaps simply be the Peruvian name for the more well-known Brazilian strain "Caupuri" - with the swollen nodes resembling the rattle on the tail of the Cascabel viper. Hmmmm....more digging needs to be done methinks. I've not heard talk of Caupuri being super-strong, but to be honest I don't know much about Caupuri at all save for it's appearance, so I'm still not sure.

Edited October 15, 2012 by gtarman

[Jox]

Nice research Gtarman

I have been reading up about B.caapi strains/varieties, after being gifted one by a very generous member (Thank-you).

I am not sure if there is a way to distinguish the difference between the varieties by sight if so I don't know how mature the plants would have to be.

Or are they only distinguished by chemical analyses?

Cheers

jox

[gtarman]

Thanks mate. Curiosity is one of my strong suits haha. That and having done a bit of work in SEO, I know my advanced search queries pretty well, which comes in handy.

I'm pretty sure that it's entirely an appearance thing, but with each strain of different appearance having it's own typical chemical signatures, alkaloid levels and various other attributes as well most likely. I know it's most easy to spot with Caupuri due to the funky-looking swollen nodes as mentioned above. I might have to see if I can get any of these people I contacted to send me a photo of a section of Cascabel so that I can either eliminate or confirm Caupuri as synonymous.

[Zaka]

Irie,

As far as I'm aware Cascabel (Peruvian name) & Caupuri (Brazilian name) are synonymous.

I have several vine from seeds of cascabel, from a brazilian source....

Quite distinctive due to the round enlarged nodes...

Not had a chance to compare strength.

Respect,

Z

[gtarman]

Cheers Zaka

I'm gonna keep looking into this a little more, and maybe see if I can get some photos just to be sure either way. I think it'll be really cool to have sorted this out - always love a good mystery.

[Micromegas]

Ayahuasca banisteriopsis "Cascabel"

(personal photo - do not reproduce)

Called "Rattle" ayahuasca because it's bark looks like the skin of a jungle snake in the genus Crotalus (perhaps?). Interestingly, from what I can tell, there are no rattle snakes in the jungle so the actual snake it is named after may be another type of pit viper without the rattle!

"Genus Crotalus: The most common representative of this genus is the famous Rattle Snake. However, there are no Rattlesnakes in the low Rain Forest areas of Peru, but there exists a non venomous snake that locally goes under the name of Cascabel Falso or False Rattle snake, which looks very much like the real thing but is not venomous." The rattlesnake Crotalus durissus lives on forest margins and adjacent savannahs.

Crotalus durissus looks like this:

There is a similarity there.

Found this: "Mestizos in the Upper Amazon generally refer to the various Bothrops species as jergón in Quechua or as vibora in Spanish. The Spanish term cascabel, rattle, usually refers to the genus Crotalus, the rattlesnake, which is not found in neotropical environments, but rather in dry habitats such as the savannahs in Guyana. In the Upper Amazon, the term cascabel may be used to refer to juveniles of the genus Bothrops." From http://www.singingto...8/04/snakebite/

I.e. Bothrops atrox, from Peru:

... Cascabel:

(Personal photo - do not reproduce)

Further to that, if my memory does not deceive me, this strain of ayahuasca is referred to as Cascabel euphemistically, substituted for Thunder (i.e. Rattle = Thunder), because this strain of caapi brings the thunder, and in that sense Cascabel has dual meaning, identifying the plant from its appearance and also from its quality during ceremony.

In my experience equating this plant with thunder or bringing thunder is apropos, indeed!

Micro.

[IndianDreaming]

In Tihkal p.289 Sasha mentions a smooth form of the vine called tukunaca predominately found in the cooler areas of southern Brazil. And the large node variant called caupurí in Amazonia

Not sure if it's relevant to your discussion though!

[gtarman]

Ayahuasca banisteriopsis "Cascabel"

(personal photo - do not reproduce)

Called "Rattle" ayahuasca because it's bark looks like the skin of a jungle snake in the genus Crotalus (perhaps?). Interestingly, from what I can tell, there are no rattle snakes in the jungle so the actual snake it is named after may be another type of pit viper without the rattle!

"Genus Crotalus: The most common representative of this genus is the famous Rattle Snake. However, there are no Rattlesnakes in the low Rain Forest areas of Peru, but there exists a non venomous snake that locally goes under the name of Cascabel Falso or False Rattle snake, which looks very much like the real thing but is not venomous." The rattlesnake Crotalus durissus lives on forest margins and adjacent savannahs.

Crotalus durissus looks like this:

There is a similarity there.

Found this: "Mestizos in the Upper Amazon generally refer to the various Bothrops species as jergón in Quechua or as vibora in Spanish. The Spanish term cascabel, rattle, usually refers to the genus Crotalus, the rattlesnake, which is not found in neotropical environments, but rather in dry habitats such as the savannahs in Guyana. In the Upper Amazon, the term cascabel may be used to refer to juveniles of the genus Bothrops." From http://www.singingto...8/04/snakebite/

I.e. Bothrops atrox, from Peru:

... Cascabel:

(Personal photo - do not reproduce)

Further to that, if my memory does not deceive me, this strain of ayahuasca is referred to as Cascabel euphemistically, substituted for Thunder (i.e. Rattle = Thunder), because this strain of caapi brings the thunder, and in that sense Cascabel has dual meaning, identifying the plant from its appearance and also from its quality during ceremony.

In my experience equating this plant with thunder or bringing thunder is apropos, indeed!

Micro.

 

Awesome! Thanks for sharing this. None of the dudes I emailed have gotten back to me but this is definitely not caupuri haha.

[mauve]

Very interesting pictures and info, Micromegas, thank you ! Would it be possible to know where the pictures were taken ? I am curious to know more about this caapi and it's usages, if possible ?

The bark of this caapi is very rough indeed, i am wondering if the "cascabel" trait is genetical or depending of cultivation, conditions or age ?

[gtarman]

Very interesting pictures and info, Micromegas, thank you ! Would it be possible to know where the pictures were taken ? I am curious to know more about this caapi and it's usages, if possible ?

 

I'm not sure where Micro took these photos, but the two aya retreats I found and contacted that say they use cascabel are:

http://www.elmundomagico.org/

http://www.biopark.org/

I'm also still interested in finding out any more information that anybody might have about this strain

[TrailBlazer]

My 2 year old Cascabel Caapi

[TrailBlazer]

I can take cuttings of this plant if people are interested.

Edited March 22, 2013 by TrailBlazer

[toast]

I can take cuttings of this plant if people are interested.

Dude I'm definitely interested in a cutting of that vine.

I have plenty of stuff available for trade too

[shortly]

I'd be pretty keen myself

[TrailBlazer]

Toast if you agree to propagating and getting it out there amongst the people then for sure we can trade.

[tarenna]

Would love a cutting if any are available please - much to trade.

Looks like Sphagneticola trilobata underneath it.. Yuck...

[toast]

Toast if you agree to propagating and getting it out there amongst the people then for sure we can trade.

Cool, that's the plan TB

[mauve]

Trailblazer, you have a beautiful caapi ! But it looks more like a caupuri/mono/mujeres caapi than a cascabel !

[TrailBlazer]

This plant is very popular hey, Please be aware I don't have any cuttings at this present moment to offer but will take some as soon as its growing again OK? The climate and weather has been up the shiter this year

When plants are available I will put some in the trades department. I have received shit loads of requests ha! So everyone ask me then hey, Sorry I can't help sooner! This vine is a real slow grower!

Cheers!

Edited March 31, 2013 by TrailBlazer

[TrailBlazer]

To add further to the confusion that is the Amazon and naming of plants from region to region, From tribe to tribe.

Here is my Rattle caapi with its cork, Snake like skin the same as MM has posted above.

Cascabel has smooth bark!

Rattle has rough cork bark, They are not the same thing.

Its bloody confusing hey? Cascabel is a spanish word meaning bell or bell like.

I go with what stands out visuall, Its clear whats what but it gets lost in translation and what not.

The ayahuasca forums has a good thread about the ambiguity and confusion in relation to Malpighiaceae vines of the amazon. It would make a bloody good book i rekon!

Don't get me started on the that joke about vine colors ha!

[mauve]

Thank you for correcting ! Yes it is a very confusing issue, the "vine colors" thing is still a very good marketing tool for vendors hehe.

I am glad that more and more differents caapi are appearing, diversity is great ! I hope to see more and more pictures of the differences betweens cultivars, if any, grown in the same conditions...

[gtarman]

Wow, cool that this thread has taken off again. All the sources and information I found (and I did do a considerable amount of digging on this) speak of "Cascabel" and "rattle" caapi interchangeably. I haven't found anything suggesting them to be different, and that picture looks very typical Caupuri to me. Not saying it may not be that way, but I certainly have my doubts.

I do concede though that the taxonomy is very, very sketchy at times - and often completely different depending on where you are or who you ask...the same plants can be called different names by different tribes, or depending on whether you're in Brazil or Peru etc, and it's not always clear what's what or what somebody is referring to when they say some name, whether we're talking species, clones, strains etc.

But from a pragmatic point of view that first picture looks exactly like any Caupuri plant I've ever seen, and Micro's picture seems to have more credence to being distinct and taken on location in a place where Cascabel/rattle is used and known in it's traditional environment.

I'd say it's just a confused issue overall (I wouldn't claim to have the answers either way). If somebody does actually write that book, I'll be lining up to get my copy signed haha

Edited March 22, 2013 by gtarman