Comments on "Lost Peyotes"

[Teotzlcoatl]

It would though be interesting to see if the people who have interest in actual ingestion rather than armchair speculation about written words are not in or around this age range?

No reports of it being hallucinogenic but plenty of it being an MDMA-like mild stimulant.

The activity of some as ADMIXTURES seems far more interesting and begs for some real research.

There seems to be plenty of potential for medicines in assorted cacti. Maybe some MAOIs from the Coryphanthas and Pachycereus and others, possibly antiinflammatories from some Ariocarpus (or at least this is usggested by their use), some are certainly active as stimulants and probably some will prove to be pain relievers.

Teotz'- Mr. Trout, I have a question concerning the following written by M. S. Smith-

"Coryphantha macromeris:

Reportedly used as a traditional hallucinogen. K. Trout states that a bioassay experience- ?had been very mild and very strange, with many waves of intense nausea and extremely persistent after effects, such as distorted vision and a very weird feeling of unreality lasting for weeks after it's use.?"

May I ask you a question?

http://entheogen.netfirms.com/articles/art...otic_Cacti.html

Mr. Trout- Sure.

The plant lacks any demonstrable traditional use. If I am in error a reference would be nice.

I do not know of any interesting bioassay report. I felt more poisoned than anything and have no plans to follow through.

Teotz'- Was the cactus correctly identified before you ingested it?

How many did you eat?

How did you prepare them?

Besides nausea and sickness, were there any other effects?

Thanks so much for the help...

I plant on looking into all the following cacti-

(Suspected) Psychoactive Cacti-

Ariocarpus agavoides

Ariocarpus fissuratus

Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus

Ariocarpus retusus

Astrophytum asterias

Astrophytum myriostigma

Aztekium ritterii

Carnegiea gigantea

Coryphantha compacta

Coryphantha elephantidens

Coryphantha macromeris

Echinocactus platyacanthus (Echinocactus visnaga)

Echinocereus salm-dyckianus (Echinocereus scheeri)

Echinocereus polyacanthus

Epithalantha micromeris

Lophophora williamsii*

Lophophora diffusa

Mammillaria grahamii

Mammillaria heyderi

Mammillaria (Dolichothele) longimamma

Mammillaria pectinifera (Solisia pectinata)

Mammillaria (Mamillopsis) senilis

Mammillaria sonorensis (Mammillaria craigii)

Matucana madisoniorum

Neoraimondia macrostibas

Obregonia denegrii

Pachycereus pecten-aboriginum

Pachycereus pringlei

Pelecyphora aselliformis

Strombocactus disciformis

Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele

Turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus (Pelecyphora pseudopectinata)

Trichocereus species

I also want to cultivation all the "Cimora" brew plants...

?Cimora? Brew Plants and Admixtures-

Trichocereus spp.

Neoraimondia macrostibas

Pedilanthus tithymaloides

Isotoma longiflora

Brugmansia spp.

Iresine spp.

Datura spp.

Thank you again!

Mr. Trout- Only in the really broad sense of the word psychoactive is that list going to be psychoactive in interesting ways.

It is likely that only several of those entries are worth pursuing at all.

Its really funny that this list or one very close to it keeps getting resurrected and explored. Too bad more people don't publish what did not work for them or pay attention to the negative results that are published (such as Matucana which has never had anything at all observed in it and all speculations about activity were based on Paul HUtchison thinking it looked like peyote. He and some students of his made LOTS of speculation but all lacking bioassays. Its had gcms ran at least twice now including on material straight from Paul Hutchison's wild collections.).

Its especially amusing about Epithelantha. I have heard comments about people eating them or their fruit for no effects for several decades yet more people keep doing it based on that one single line in the literature that keeps getting rehashed.

I think critical thinking needs to be taught in school more commonly.

ID was correct. It was one of the larger NM type macromeris that grow much larger than those in West Texas.

the plant weighed over a kg and half was ingested after the whole thing was made into a lime juice based tea that came out as thick as snot without any reduction.

I felt mildly deranged for days - I felt as if I had been poisoned and survived.

It is so weird people don't want to stick with the tried, safe and true plants and want to find something new no one has noticed or has overlooked.

Teotz' Q.- So you honestly think that none of the cacti on that list have potential as entheogens?

Mr. Trout A.- It is far more likely that they are not then are. Most of the assumptions of their potential activity arise from one of several things:

1) Anecdotal accounts exist extrapolating something like "widens the eyes" "enables one to see sorcerors" or "gives strength to runners" as meaning hallucinogenicity. What is pertinent is NONE of the people making those claims (whther the original or the retellings) actually ever ingested the plants they talk about. This gets compounded by many people over the years talking a lot about it without bothering to take the logical FIRST step which is attempting replication to support the claims.

In some cases people have ingested the plants (such as Epithelantha micromeris flesh or fruit) have no results but this is not for some reason as widely recounted as the original mythology. Maybe its not as exciting to hear something was ineffective?

2) Assertions of activity are based on containing phenethylamines of some sort despite none of those showing hallucinogenicity. Bruhn for instance added a lot of mythology operating on this bad assumption. In some cases one can actually now find some PEAs appearing in print as having hallucinogenic activity based on Bruhn commenting they were found in a supposed hallucinogenic cactus (that he did not ingest nor witness ingested) In one of these cases it turned out that the plant analyzed was not even the species with purported activity!

3) Assuming that simply being called a peyote means it is hallucinogenic.

4) Some arise from bad or illfounded popular audience literature as well. For instance the claims of Epiphyllum oxypetallum causing hallucinations (I think this came from Grieve's Herbal?) or the assorted articles in High Times over the years.

Caveat lector!

The activity of some as ADMIXTURES seems far more interesting and begs for some real research. Pedilanthes for instance.

Teotz' Q.- I'm not only interested in the psychoactive potential of these plants but also the medical potential.

Mr. Trout A.- There seems to be plenty of potential for medicines in assorted cacti. Maybe some MAOIs from the Coryphanthas and Pachycereus and others, possibly antiinflammatories from some Ariocarpus (or at least this is usggested by their use), some are certainly active as stimulants and probably some will prove to be pain relievers.

Teotz' Q.- I have however promised one of my buddys a large Mammillaria sonorensis (Mammillaria craigii).

He wishs to ingest it, I told him of the dangers but he says he's still up for it.

What dangers are you aware of?

Mr. Trout A.- There is not a shred of published analysis for it. Its been consumed by many people in Oz already. No reports of it being hallucinogenic but plenty of it being an MDMA-like mild stimulant.

Also in equating sonorensis with craigii are you sure the two actually have the same shared chemistry or are they merely lumped together in name now?

Teotz' Q.- Do you think it is unwise to allow him to do this?

Mr. Trout A.- Its his choice.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Teotz'

[Vertmorpheus]

I was doing some grafts a lil while ago and nibbled on some Echinocereus pentalophus tissue... persistently, characteristically bitter in the green bits and quite a ways into the white. Easily as bitter as the wee slice of monster bridge I taste tested whilst grafting those, and probably more persistant.

http://cactiguide.com/graphics/e_pentalophus_b_600.jpg

http://cactiguide.com/graphics/e_pentalophus_600.jpg

Feel free to eat a bunch and tell us how you get on!

VM

edity... forgot to mention that I once accidentally ate some Mamm. longimam, nice lil specimen, hard grown... in early summer it had a weirdly metallic tang with a good helping of a taste that took me back to being a lil kid with asthma, some kind of medication... something thin and blue green to the nose, (synesthesia saves time!) chemical-ly, sharp and "high" rather than the more familiar and decidedly earthy tang of more typically nibbled genii. When less accidentally nibbled more recently, cooler drier weather but probably still growing as rapidly for now... just tasted like very salty snotty spinach with kind of an oxalic tang. Didn't get whacked off either (nibbling one lil cone shaped "brachlet") and wasn't trying to, either. Eat a whole one at the start of summer and you might breath a lot easier, or something? give yourself a years worth of cortisone in one sitting? It was something I had around the time I was getting a lot of cortisone, anyway... weird how the nose n taste works faster than the mind sometimes.

No, I don't run around eating everything in sight , I just do it especially with new plants etc because it's educational in regards to the plant itself Don't nibble in nurseries though, it all just tastes like confidor.

Edited April 14, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[Teotzlcoatl]

This is exactly what we need...

Documented cases of ingestion.

Wheater the effects be psychoactive, stimulating, medinical, entheogenic or absent, I still find these cacti interesting!

[Vertmorpheus]

also Cereus "peruvianus" (the tall dark green one, bugger all spines, usual thing) is not bitter, just green... cereus forbesii is not bitter, just green... none of my hylocereus are bitter. None of my two epiphyllums taste like much more than spinach. mammilaria (possibly) gracilis isnt bitter, mam. magnimamma isnt bitter, in fact for a cactus that pisses out white sap when u cut it, its not very tangy at all. Blue myrtle, not bitter. Cereus "uruguayensis" that thick more powder olive green cereus, bit fat great base to the spines but not real long spines... football shaped new growth in profile, etc... not bitter.

thats all the tastebuds can tell for now. Course, any of those might be screamingly interesting at other times of year... couldnt tell you when I nibbled half of em, its just something I do when I see exposed flesh muwhawha.

VM

[AndyAmine.]

This is exactly what we need...

Documented cases of ingestion.

Wheater the effects be psychoactive, stimulating, medinical, entheogenic or absent, I still find these cacti interesting!

Personaly, I think this is exactly what we DONT need on this forum...

[Vertmorpheus]

Certainly not actual ingestion with a view to getting off, thats for sure. I feel ok reporting what my taste buds tell me though, (same way some mycos nibble n spit... just the tiniest possibly amount til you can taste it, then spit n rinse. No swallowing ) it's a standard test I subject just about any newfound plantling to, more with a view to potential edibility than medicinal questing. One step on from smelling, which I always do too... but it's usually not as insightful.

Not telling anyone to go actually INGESTING anything, which is a different kettle o highly bitter fish, and something I would a> put somewhere else b> probably not do in the first place c> would go into much more precise detail than vague descriptions of taste and unmentionably tiny amounts, if I did.

I can only imagine how many people are keeping an eye out for an ugly little Echino in their travels, though (btw, makes a good graftstock for parodias, too). But then that'd happen just for mentioning that it seems like a kinda fucked up version of an originally taller, neater vaguely trich looking thing... minds like flypaper, around here.

Apologies for bringing gardening into disrepute Don't eat anything unless its on your dinner plate! Even then, keep your wits about you...

VM

[mutant]

Does anyone know of an reported astrophytum bioessay?

http://galeon.com/cactomania/alucinogenos.htm

[Teotzlcoatl]

If they do I can't find it...

I'm pretty sure Astrophytum asterias is completely inactive....

But the "Bishop's Cap" cactus (Astrophytum myriostigma) may have been a Sacred Cacti to some Native Americas... It is said to have "Datura-like" effects, Tho no actual bioassys are known.

Traslation of Spanish Text from link-

Astrophytum myriostigma small and slow Cactus variable concentrations of hordelina, mescaline and other. Original of Mexico. Call "untamed peyote cactus" or "miter" and "mortarboard of bishop" Cactus enteogenos

Edited April 28, 2008 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

Mr.Trout, could I ask you a few more questions?

[sandalwood]

not to "butt" in here...

but I thought I would include a negative bioassay of ariocarpus fissuratus that was harvested apparently from land that was being cleared to raise cattle on.

I seperated the two cacti tops from roots.

I believe I ate the roots first. waited a few hours, and tried the tops.

as I heard rumor the tops were psychoactive and the roots were narcotic/painkiller in effect.

there was no bitterness. the cactus tasted like warm salty cucumber.....mixed with a not unpleasant earthiness.

the cacti were not ancient specimen...I have two others that were almost twice the size.

I feel bad for killing these cactus now.

I have heard claims of ariocarpus being active. but the recent report over at edot seems to be someone claiming that a certian species is active if you smoke the tops.

after my experience...or lack of one really, I would only stress to people that it may not be worth destroying such slow growing specimen of cacti such as these.

I have looked at these lists for a few years....and been interested in bioassay reports.

but about the most interesting I have found, are all reports of negative physical effects.

such as the experiment that the shulgins sat in on with what I believe was a type of pachycereus (pringlii?) or similiar spelling....and the report that MS Smith includes on this website.

the only effect that I might consider was a mild placid stimulation. but perhaps that was just increased opioidopaminergic endogenous activity from the act of novel exploration? ha ha.

and the effect of feeling very "watery"....

as if I was full of water, but not bloated, a comfortable saltiness.

the commercial interest of finding a new psychoactive cacti probably drives as many people to eat "strange" cacti as does the search for psychoactivity.

with pedro tea, I think one already has a lifetime of potential waiting. the gift that at least this cacti is legal to grow has been an important avenue of exploration for me since 1984 when I was first dosed on a small amount of "peyo-tea"

there is a plant in particular that I would love to hear a bioassay of...

but its not a cacti, rather, acacia rigidula.....this interesting species has recently found its way into some weight lifting formula's....but that is another forum.

I think the pachycereus type cacti might hold some promise. at least we have some reliable information that they are at least psychoactive. if not nauseating.

my ears will be eternally open to this discussion though, if not for my stomach.

Mr.Trout, could I ask you a few more questions?

[Teotzlcoatl]

That's very interesting. Thanks for reporting.

[Auxin]

 

 

Its really funny that this list or one very close to it keeps getting resurrected and explored. Too bad more people don't publish what did not work for them or pay attention to the negative results that are published

Agreed. Has anyone heard of use of Echinocereus mojavensis? Its one of the ones that keeps getting rehashed as a supposedly active species (even tho Smith pointed out its likely the original literature was refering to E. polyacanthus instead) so surely someones tried it. What makes me most curious is that it has been found to contain N,N-dimethylhistamine, as have other Echinocereus sp., and I'm wondering if that causes any toxicity because other Echinocereus sp. with potentially more useful alkaloids may also contain it. I've been unsuccessful finding human toxicological data on N,N-dimethylhistamine <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_sad.png

 

[MORG]

Epithalantha micromeris bioassay here...

Perhaps Teotz' can systematically blend and deliver himself enemas for all the other "lost peyotes" on the list?

[rahli]

Epithalantha micromeris bioassay here...

Perhaps Teotz' can systematically blend and deliver himself enemas for all the other "lost peyotes" on the list?

If Teotz was a 19 year old female from the southern U.S. it might even be worth reading the trip report.

Hang on a minute.........

Edited February 23, 2009 by rahli

[Teotzlcoatl]

Wow thanks for posting that Epithelantha bioassy!

I don't really get your post Rahli... Whats were I live or me being 19 have to do with anything?

Edited February 23, 2009 by Teotz'

[Auxin]

He was just constructing a porno in his mind, I think you may have a fan.. after all, guys dont fantasize about cactus snot enema/scat porn with girls they dont like <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_newimprovedwinkonclear.gif (its ok if you find it creepy, I would too <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_tongue.png)

[Teotzlcoatl]

Wow... uber-creepy.

Now! Back to cacti!

Edited February 23, 2009 by Teotz'

[rahli]

Now! Back to cacti!

Wow have you started systematically blending already.

You go girl, and don't forget the interesing parts in your report

[t st tantra]

i'm curious about these plants too but i hate seeing someone harvest decades of growth,15 whole cactii apparently,yeild only 31gms and its a bad trip.......karma!.....this topic is largely a bad trip imho!

i usually just try to ignore it but it wont go away........

t s t .

[Auxin]

Why are you always so negative about cacti tst? Not all cacti in collections are harvested from the wild, in fact most are grown exclusively in captivity exclusively for sale or personal use and some are cultured exclusively for tests. So lets look at this- a cactus nursery buys some Neoraimondia seed from mesa and grows it to sell clones. They sell a clone- mission achieved, they get to eat and junior gets closer to college. The buyer buys it to eventually test, s/he grows the clone for three years then tests it- mission achieved. How is any of that bad karma? Is it bad karma to eat corn? Of course not. If corn was a biennial rather than an annuual would eating it then be bad karma? Of course not. Is the extreme majority of cacti in australia grown by humans or harvested illegally from the wild half a world away and smuggled in to australia in violation of federal and international law? I feel pretty safe in assuming the former.

So if someone buys a Echinocereus berlandieri to mix with Trichocereus as an experimental admixture, or tastes a slice of a Oroya neoperuviana they grew, or whatever else, whats the big deal?

[Teotzlcoatl]

Thanks for the post Auxin.

Never heard much of Oroya neoperuviana... anything interesting about it?

[Auxin]

I was just grabbing names of species I could think of which someone could easily have decided to test <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_newimprovedwinkonclear.gif

Oroya sp. is a small peruvian genus of small cacti related to Trichocereus which, as far as I know, hasnt yet been tested for alkaloids or crossability with Trichs. Echinocereus berlandieri is a cactus with an uncertain amount of 3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine as the sole PEA alkaloid someone might try as an admixture if they were curious about that alkaloids role as an admixture (may contain N,N-dimethylhistamine too). Neoraimondia sp. has admixture mescaline analog PEAs, both phenolic and non-phenolic.

I think the biggest frontier in psychonautic cactus research will lie in the admixture potentials of different cacti, if such data is collected and then cross-referenced against known alkaloids in the cacti in question it should quickly be possible to target further research according to what types of alkaloids different cacti groups contain. For instance, Trouts bioassay of Coryphanths macromeris sounds intimidating.. upon looking at the chemistry of Coryphantha (after taking into account past classification messes in the genus) it seems clear that variously O-methylated epinephrine and synephrine alkaloid analogs occur throughout the genus. Its no frikking surprise that epinephrine and synephrine analogs would be unpleasant in active doses! However if experimenters determined a dose that were sub-threshold alone and then, after a 2 week detox, combined that with a very predictable dose of a well known Trich thats where it may expose some admixture magic. Might make the visions sharper or brighter, might energize the mind more, might cause little psychadelic sparkles in the visual field, might also produce/amplify anxiety... what it would do can currently only be guessed based on structure which is why people fortunate enough to be in a place where its legal should share their experiences because any experiment with one Coryphantha would have broad implications for most Coryphanthas, and thats just one example- there are groups of cacti with similar PEA groups, groups of cacti with similar THIQ groups, etc. If enough data is collected it could be possible to deliberately engineer brews with the desired vision colors, vision sharpness, body high vs. visionary potential vs. mind bending, sedation vs. stimulation vs. neutrality, what would compliment music better or what would compliment visual experiences beter, etc, etc.

So again I ask, anyone know of results of a Echinocereus triglochidiatus mojavensis bioassay or any other Echinocereus bioassay? Anyone know of reliable bioassays for other species? I previously posted here regarding tests of Mammillarias as admixtures [Link] Sounds interesting, mamms are known to have variously N-methylated tyramine and 3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine alkaloids, probably other similar ones in there too... those critters are also found in peyote and its no secret peyote is experientially different from purer mescaline sources.

[t st tantra]

Why are you always so negative about cacti tst? Not all cacti in collections are harvested from the wild, in fact most are grown exclusively in captivity exclusively for sale or personal use and some are cultured exclusively for tests. So lets look at this- a cactus nursery buys some Neoraimondia seed from mesa and grows it to sell clones. They sell a clone- mission achieved, they get to eat and junior gets closer to college. The buyer buys it to eventually test, s/he grows the clone for three years then tests it- mission achieved. How is any of that bad karma? Is it bad karma to eat corn? Of course not. If corn was a biennial rather than an annuual would eating it then be bad karma? Of course not. Is the extreme majority of cacti in australia grown by humans or harvested illegally from the wild half a world away and smuggled in to australia in violation of federal and international law? I feel pretty safe in assuming the former.

So if someone buys a Echinocereus berlandieri to mix with Trichocereus as an experimental admixture, or tastes a slice of a Oroya neoperuviana they grew, or whatever else, whats the big deal?

this is an unrealistic view of my comments which are largely based on the very wide easy availability of alternatives which are only a years growth or so.

no issues with cactii just little slow growing ones .

everyone makes their own decisions on what they consume and lives with them.

i just couldnt do what was reported above.........without going into the bioassay tek.......

t s t .

[Teotzlcoatl]

i just couldnt do what was reported above.........without going into the bioassay tek.......

Please elaborate.

[mutant]

Lol, I guess Teotz will have various folks around the world to eat the cacti he wouldn't dare to try after all.. I would call this a success!

It's just a pity for the cacti....