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tiapan

Native Erythroxylum Seeds and leaf available

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After an expedition to the top end last year, I still have a few seeds and some leaf from Erythroxylum australe available.

For those who are interested academically, and are after specimens for taxonomic, pharmacognostic, ethnobotanical or DNA studies I can offer 5 seeds and a sample of leaves (couple of grams) for $25AUD. (WILD HARVEST - No guarantee of viability).

(see my site for further information done in conjuction with Lambo)

http://www.webcauldron.com/rareplants/erythroxylaceae/

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could these seeds still be viable?

Other erythroxylum seeds supposedly only last 3 days or a week?

Does anyone know?

Torsten perhaps?

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proly not!

those seeds are dead as doornails after a month, some people claim they store a bit longer.

but not viable if collected late last year!!

[ 27. May 2004, 15:24: Message edited by: planthelper ]

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the seeds would definitely be dead.

and before anyone attempts bioassaying the leaves, please read the section on this plant on this site... or ask Piers what he thinks of it

Also, in NSW all parts of this plant are illegal.

Your site is fascinating. Definitely the best collection of information on australian erythroxylum species I have seen yet.

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Contrary to the suggestions of Lambo, a germinating seed of coca or novo has cocaine in it and so would be prohibited from import, export or possession in most countries of the world. But this doesn't matter with these seeds as they will never germinate because they are dead.

Lots of information on the website but how well-selected? Swallowing Rain Tree articles whole without chewing can be very dangerous for your health.

According to Rain Tree:

"Catuaba is known by several botanical names in Brazil, including Juniperus brasiliensis, Anemopaegma mirandum D.C., Erythroxylon catuaba martius, and Trichillia catigua, . Catuaba belongs to family Erythroxylaceae whose principal genus, Erythroxylon, contains several species and varieties of which are the source of cocaine."

Or, in the real world:

"Juniperus brasiliensis , Anemopaegma mirandum (Cham.) Mart. ex DC., Erythroxylon catuaba Mart. [mobot doesn't have this one either, just an invalid name], and Trichilia catigua A. Juss. are just some of the many aphrodisiac plants known as Catuaba in South America (the name means "Strong Man"). One of these Catuabas is a member of the Erythroxylaceae. Other members of the genus Erythroxylum can contain cocaine and other poisons."

The line-drawing and the photo on the page http://www.webcauldron.com/rareplants/eryt...lum_catuaba.htm are so clearly Bignoniaceous that one has to curse Rain Tree, Lambo and tiapan for blind fools. But then what incredible lack of botanical nous is needed to think that a conifer like juniper is the same as a showy flowering tree like Anemopaegma or Trichilia?

I get pissed off with people propagating scientific lies.

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Thank you for your important contribution to science theobromos. Im glad you have identified the true identity of that material called Catuaba. I have not had the opportunity of examining it first hand so I can not positively identify it.

I believe examination of the "Catuaba" petals would show a lack of one very genus specific characteristic ie: Petals green/white/cream with a pronounced appendage ruffle on the inner surface of the petals with 2 very short crested lobes midway between the base and the apex.

This I think would allow us to boot it permanently from the record...

Having obviously made the same observation myself you will note, at the start of each section dealing with "Catuaba" the proviso querying the validity of "Catuaba's" listing in the erythroxylum genus.

eg quote from my website

"Family: Erythroxylaceae

Genus: Erythroxylum

Species: catuaba martius

(is this really a species of Erythroxylum?)"

and further . . .

"Family: Erythroxylaceae

(I do not believe this is correct)

Genus: Erythroxylum

Species: catuaba martius"

I hope I am not looking quite as FOOLish as some now... :)

It is included in the website because it is STILL called Erythroxylum catuaba and sold as such. So for completeness the pitiful data I have collected is there as stated until better arrives.

And yes it does have info from the site you mentioned and several others as well.. I find it the best way to get it in one spot and look for contradictions and reinforcements. It was also important to get a handle on the pharmacognosy and alkaloidal chemotype claims.

Having identified this genus as a logical candidate for pharmacognositic investigation

I noticed, whilst researching this topic years ago, the amount of totally contradictory data in the many of the original references to this genus.

In order to resolve the discrepencies in the literature it was necessary to get up and see these species first hand. Having done that, I then put together, what I believe is the first report (see website), correctly combining the archival and first hand data into the most accurate botanical report on these Australian species to date.

I did it as an aid for those who like me have an interest in pharmacognosy. By putting in one place, the information I took so long to find myself others can now find it quickly and efficiently avoiding the frustration I endured.

This genus includes many species which have provided various communities throughout the southern hemisphere with numerous resources.. timber medicines food for thousands of years. Many are the source of various unique compounds of the important tropane alkaloid group used throughout medicine. One of its species is of such major economic importance that several south american countries are directly affected by it politically and economically. The species, E.coca produces one tropane alkaloid Cocaine a substance deemed far too dangerous for the public to be allowed to use and as such, vaste resources are expended to limit its production and distribution. This is fair enough as it was decided democratically?

The problem is that of the other 250 species (NB with 2 execeptions: novo and trux) have absolutely no illicit substance in them at all, yet many examples of poorly thoughtout legislation tend to blanket ban anything spelt the same way.

I use the Australian TGA and US standards which in essence concern themselves specifically with those species containing cocaine, ecgonine and methyl-ecgonine. Specifically E. coca ; E. novogetenses and e. trux.. Declaring these definate NO NOs but excluding those species without controlled substances present.

If there is no illicit substance present in these plant species material then the only problem lies in the name. If so why is E. catuaba freely available and sold even in NSW.

As far as the NSW legislation is concerned E. australe is classified as a noxious weed so growing it is not permitted but St Johns Wort is also a noxious weed in the same state where it is regularly wild harvested transported all over the place and generating a steady income for a small cottage industry.

The law is grey if there is no illegal substance present.

It is important that these and many other native species be thoroughly examined to broaden our understanding of the vaste variety of ingenious ways plants have of chemically dealing with problems. Allowing light to be shone on problems of our own from a new angle especially in medicine and pest management. However, with science in this country, the way its going, it is unlikely much resource will be spent in this area, so it is up to those like us to go out and do the miles.

I hope my site is useful for all and helps those who wish to follow in my foot steps

btw the seeds and leaf sample offer above, is purely for identification purposes and no claim is made as to the seeds viability.

My site is open to suggestions and welcomes any new valid data.

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awesome pic's thx tiapan,

the best pic of australe on the net,

now i know how it looks like.

i live in the norther rivers, my closest search area would be esk shire wivenhoe dam.

btw, novo gives coca cola some of it's taste!

yes, there is still novo in the coke.

[ 28. May 2004, 09:36: Message edited by: planthelper ]

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Tiapan - it is my experience that when location data is posted freely that plants disappear very quickly. Sadly not everyone who reads these forums treats plants with the respect they deserve. I am not against sharing location data (quite the contrary), I just think it is wiser to supply it on a case by case basis after personal contact. This in general weeds out most vandals.

Re the legality of this genus in NSW you are right that it is listed as a noxious weed, but this is the way it is enforced in all states. In NSW specifially you will find the whole genus covered by the drug misuse and trafficking act. In other words, growing it is the same as growing a cannabis plant. It is also no longer freely available in rainforest nurseries etc because of this.

As for the sale of catuaba, I am sure that it is only sooooo popular because it has the name Erythroxylum on it. I know it is locally marketed at the 'legal coca plant'. As the material sold is in fact not of this genus, the authorities would have a hard time proving their case, although theoretically you can be convicted of a crime if you represent your material to be an illegal material even if it isn't (ie selling a baggie of sugar to an undercover agent pretending it is speed can still land you with a drug conviction).

Maybe you can use your page to properly dispute the naming of catuaba so it can be used as a reference to correct the marketing myth that is abound. Even if it doesn't solve the actual species ID, you can use the deductions above to show that it is not Erythroxylum. It would also keep Theo happy

[ 28. May 2004, 18:02: Message edited by: Torsten ]

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Just realised the coordinates only go to the minutes anyway, so no danger of anyone finding them

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Your right but I took back my initial reticense about handing out location details.

This is the most prolific of the species, and I would like to stimlate some discussion so I decided to release those 4 (which btw are available via public access on the Internet).

I have over 100 more such locations,

Hopefully amongst the hoards of forest rapers some will actually fall into good hands.

The same is not true with E. ecarinatum a true rainforest tree in every sense of the word. These are extremely rare and I will never divulge their Locations. (Too bludy hard to find the next one :) . You can see details from recent photos at

http://www.webcauldron.com/rareplants/eryt..._ecarinatum.htm

I am still gathering specimens from E. ellipticum and will release further details as they become available. data so far can be found at

http://www.webcauldron.com/rareplants/eryt..._ellipticum.htm

I will post GCMS/HPLCMS results later this year if finances permit

Initial results of GCMS analysis indicate Atropine type tropane moity which may explain the mydriasis dry mouth and other cholinergenic or parasymapathetic symptoms reported on ingestion of E.australe leaves.

If so it brings the the species based on biochemical genotyping into the group closer to the tropane pathways of Solanaceae such as Datura Bella Donna and Brugmansia and rather more distant from the tropane chemistries associated with its cousins the south american species.

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Nice work Tiapan. You must have been stoked to find E. ellipticum and E. ecarinatum! I've been wanting to make the trip to Laura for ages. I wonder how well distantly related Erythroxylum spp. cross pollinate? What do you mean when you say:

"Other related active alkaloids that are not yet entheogenically discovered are Methyl-Ecgonine 3,4,5-Trimethoxycinnamate (Australian Cocaine), Methyl-Ecgonine Tiglate."

Do you mean that these compounds haven't been discovered in any Australian species, or at all, or do you mean they haven't been bioassayed in humans? Am I correct in my understanding that no methyl-ecgonine moieties have been identified in Australian species?

[ 31. May 2004, 22:56: Message edited by: Fractalhead ]

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Where has the other photo gone, tiapan? The one of the tree? The one at the top is obviously one of the Rutaceae of the Citrus types.

I did not identify the marketed Catuaba, why do you suggest I did? I gave an opinion. I know the species names of many Catuabas if you are lacking excitement in your life, tiapan. Science has identified all that were offered. I just have to read about them in books.

I am afraid your "Is this an Erythroxylum sp.?" doesn't solve the other errors in the page.

Are you not aware of the work done by Timothy Plowman and E Wade Davies on the many wild species related to coca? Several other species than E.coca were shown to contain cocaine, not just E. novogranatense and "truxillense". All S. American natives, but a gap in your database that needs to be filled.

You have a contradiction in your own post:

"The species, E.coca produces one tropane alkaloid Cocaine a substance ..."

"with those species containing cocaine, ecgonine and methyl-ecgonine. Specifically E. coca ; E. novogetenses and e. trux.. "

Can you sort that one out for me?

In case you are not aware, the ecgonines are as much tropanes as cocaine is.

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I just gave you a chance to apologise for changing the page in order to make me look like a fool. And offered constructive criticism, Davis and Plowman contributed more to Erythroxylum botany than anybody else. I don't look like a fool, the only result of your changing your bad information is to show you to be a liar, ignorant and a fraud.

You obviously have no interest in "an aid for those who like me have an interest in pharmacognosy" or you would want to find out the truth and not defraud people by selling dead seeds.

Caveat emptor.

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theo, play nice!

maybe tiapan changed the page because he was correcting it? surely you wouldn't want him to keep something you have identified as wrong.

and was that really SFB chiming in there too, or did the forum software stuff up the nametag and it was really theo? surely we can't have two such abrasive characters here

Tiapan is a chemist not a biologist, and if he gets his germination info from lambo then you would have to excuse his ignorance on that matter

Blimey, re-reading the initial post I could almost swear that tiapan was fully aware of the unviable nature and stated as much!! (not like you to miss a detail like that theo). Knowing his field of study means he probably feels others would be similarly interested in seeds for their pharmacology etc rather than growing them.

If you feel that tiapan isn't doing a good job then maybe advise him rather than attacking him. After all he already has the framework for a good informative site and is willing to share info that most others prefer to keep for their own glorifcation.

Glad to see he is not rising to the bait.

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SFB left himself logged in on the computer, sorry about that.

Why should I play nice when tiapan tries to ridicule me by changing his page then commenting here that I was mistaken about it? Why not ask tiapan why he accidentally forgot to mention while insulting me that he had "corrected" his page following my advice? Why should I give a stuff about him or his page. I don't help rip-off artists.

If he understands nothing about science he should ask for help, not publish lies. I am a chemist really, doesn't stop me understanding a little about plants.

I am sure tiapan was aware of the unviability of the seeds. However, tiapan said "(WILD HARVEST - No guarantee of viability)." This implies that the lack of viability is due to the uncultivated nature of the seeds, not the fact that they are dead. These are weasel words, probably invented by his partners in crime, lambo.

Some people need abrading.

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c'mon theo, you just got your back up cos you saw lambo's name mentioned. happened to me too

I doubt lambo's contribution to science is of any significance in this matter, however I know that tiapan has a lot to offer. maybe if you gave him a chance you'd find out.

anyway, don't we have a rule here to be nice to newbies and not to start shredding them until they become psychonauts ? well, we should

I might have missed it, but where exactly did tiapan insult you? actually, I only just realised the sarcasm in his post :rolleyes: ..... maybe I'll stay out of this one. if he can dish it out then he can take it too.

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"A quick round of name throwing"....

Regarding my posts and website I do not mind constructive critisisms which will result in the ultimate improvement of the information offered.

However I prefer these comments to come from those who have studied the subject and can read plain english. There is one here who leaps before he looks, spews forth bullshit primarily because he is to LAZY to read what is directly in front of him. He assumes implied scenarios which are purely figments of his own imagination and exageration of his limited ego.

This person has accused me of being a FRAUD IGNORANT and a LIAR.

I initially dismissed these comments as the rantings of an idiot. (obvious evidence above)However in retrospect I decided I could not let this lie without response.

With these traits I would suggest he would have trouble passing High school biology let alone declaring him self in anyway scientfically literate.

I also believe I do more real science in 5 minutes than this dickhead has done in his entire life.

I Leave it to all viewers here to read the above posts. I believe it is fairly simple to see who the FOOL realy is.

This is my final post here. I will not respond further now that all my samples have gone.

I do appreciate the very positive responses and comments from EVERY other informed literate (can speaka da engalisha) viewer of this board and my website.

Thank you

Theo STICKIT WHERE THE SUN DONT FRIGGIN SHINE you stupid ignorant IDIOT.

NOW I feel much better having got that off my chest :)

cheers

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tiapan - you should know theo only picks on people he deems worthy. take it as a compliment

seriously guys, I don't think either of you are playing with a full deck here and your language doesn't do either of you justice.

tiapan - sometimes it's best not to bite when someone has a go on a webforum.

theo - leave the newbies alone!!

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ok let's have at it. theo and taipan - get fucked, in fact everyone get fucked.

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Torsten:

the seeds would definitely be dead.

and before anyone attempts bioassaying the leaves, please read the section on this plant on this site... or ask Piers what he thinks of it    

oh yeah! i remember that distinctly...a really precise lump in the throat feeling it was..a feeling that any more and that crucial breathing gap might close up...rather worrying that a brave australian might feel obliged to go for a whole cheekful and swallow the juice..and then neck some more, just to be sure

i mean i am pretty sure this was not a placebo bummer ok

I thought the sound of Torsten laughing was to be the last I heard on earth

I am still wondering why you wouldn't let me drive two days later when I merely hallucinated The Giant Koala Hotel - I was tired OK?

And the orange floodlight on the gum tree made a very convincing koala-like shadow..didnt it..really

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quote:

Originally posted by Piers Gibbon:

[QB]I am still wondering why you wouldn't let me drive two days later when I merely hallucinated The Giant Koala Hotel

The Giant Koala Hotel... they check in, but they don't check out.... :cool:

ROTFL Piers I think you've started something

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Hey, that was a wicked road trip. A fun time with you, Christian and Claudia!!!

And no, my refusal to let you drive had nothing to do with the erythoxylum..... and everything to do with orange koalas

Who's got the video footage of that experiment anyway? you or me?? maybe we should put it up on the site so that anyone contemplating the consumption can check out the grim reality.

And I am sorry i laughed (and laughed... and laughed....), but I thought your effects were more like mine the year before.... ie mild. It took me a while to realise that things were a *little* more intense for you.

[ 11. June 2004, 00:37: Message edited by: Torsten ]

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I dont know who has the video but I'll check my archive vaults

yes, lets get the video up there and the world can judge - that your level of laughter was entirely appropriate I reckon

delicate english mucous membranes innit

ahhh happy days

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