Jox Posted June 2, 2013 I would like to start this thread as this topic is viewed differently by many people & I would like to hear peoples opinions about it. Through my experiences, I am someone who believes that L.w var caespitosa is different from other williamsii, I have come to this conclusion by watching my seedlings grow & other more mature plants, I am talking about seed grow plants not cuttings or grafts. I do think there are factors that can make your normal williamsii look caespitosa or "clump" such as grafting or growing conditions & of coarse damage to the plant, also you might be lucky & get 1 out of 1000 of your normal seedlings that has some weird genetics (I have not seen this in my seedlings). The main reason I believe this is through growing out seed & my L.w var caespitosa are the only seeds out 100's of other Lophophora that have pupped at a 6 weeks old & 5mm big , ALL of more other Lopho's are reaching a year & a half & none of them are showing any signs of pupping. Surely this can not be coincidence, all the caespitosa seedlings pupping & hundreds of non-caespitosa over a year old not pupping. Here are some photos of my caespitosa seedlings My caespitosa seedlings Showing the size Seedling #1 Seedling #2 Seedling #3 Seedling #4 This one has two pups Seedling #5 This one throw a pup straight out the top, there was no damage Like I said, this can not be coincidence but I sure other will not agree. I look forward to hearing other peoples opinions on this. Cheers jox 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted June 2, 2013 Jox, you can't call something a variety if it can't be reproduced reliably. It is not possible to breed a caespitosa variety of Loph. G.Koehres is one of the most respected authorities on the genus and categorically states that all attempts at making caespitosa a variety have failed with the same results. This means that caespitosa is just a trait within the range of possible phenotypic outcomes of the species. And until someone finds a way to stabilise the trait it can't be a variety. Nearly a century of trying to establish this indicates it is unlikely to ever happen. There are ways to increase the chances of the caespitose trait, but as far as I know nowhere near the purity and reliability required to justify it being called a variety. That makes the distinction nothing more than a marketing tool. I have no particular opinion on the matter. i am just relaying what Koehres told me. My experience in germing lophs has been that regardless of seed source I get at least 10% caespitose. The seed I got from Koehres he rekons has about 10% caespitose, but we usually get about 25%. Crossing our own caespitose plants we get the same 10-25%. Many of them will pup VERY young [similar to your pics]. other may not pup till they are a few months old. Curiously, we have stripped several of our madly pupping plants continually and after taking 20-40 pups off over sometimes several years they now no longer produce any pups at all - and have been like that for several years. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bullit Posted June 2, 2013 wish i had a 10% chance for a boy after all my seeds i have sown 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Illustro Posted June 2, 2013 Torst: what about Lophophora williamsii v. La Perdida? I've heard very reliable reports of 100% 'caespitose' rates in such seeds. From Kohres himself: http://www.koehres-kaktus.de/shop/advanced_search_result.php?XTCsid=srgmvss3ldtgv8fduf4u71r8b0&keywords=perdida&categorie_id=364&x=67&y=7 http://www.lophophora.info/lophophora/standortbilder.php?pfad0=Bildmaterial/Bilder%20am%20Standort/Staaten/Tamaulipas/williamsii/&zeige_ordner0=La%20Perdida&gattung=williamsii&staatname=Tamaulipas&karte=tam&thumbs=Bildmaterial/Bilder%20am%20Standort/Thumbs/Tamaulipas/williamsii/&file=La%20Perdida http://www.lophophora.info/gallkult/Willkult/wperkult.html 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jox Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) I understand what your trying to say to me Torsten but the seedlings in the photos were bought as L.w var caespitosa seeds & 100% of them are pupping at this size. I have sown 100's of Lophophora's, all the species & I have never seen any of them pup at that size. I am thinking along the line of if I have bought seeds labeled L.w caespitosa seeds & 100% of them have pupped at 5mm then people are successfully reproducing them & they are a reliable variety . Like I said, I known people will disagree but I am going of what I see happening. Cheers jox Edited June 2, 2013 by Jox 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted June 2, 2013 It's been quite a few years since I talked to Koehres, so maybe things are different now. He didn't have La Perdida then for example. however he was also selling caespitosa seeds back then which is more due to market forces than proper taxonomy - a dilemma for anyone with a passion for taxonomy while running a business. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted June 2, 2013 I agree with jox, going from experience. I have always seen the same results as jox. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
incognito Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Double post Edited June 3, 2013 by incognito Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
incognito Posted June 3, 2013 I Agree with jox as well from own growing exp. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted June 3, 2013 sure there's a variety caespitosa , its so extremely caespitosa that this cant happened by chance! it is grown commercially in europe, these are seedgrown specimens growth of speed is much faster apart from extreme pupping 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted June 4, 2013 I am thinking along the line of if I have bought seeds labeled L.w caespitosa seeds & 100% of them have pupped at 5mm then people are successfully reproducing them & they are a reliable variety . wow, who woulda thunk? Jox, I'm curious, what was your germination rate of the lw var caespitosa seeds? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jox Posted June 4, 2013 Hey zelly, hope your well mate. I had pretty good germination with these, I put down 15 seeds down & have 11 little cacti so with my germ rates that makes me happy, I have had a lot worse . I was a bit surprised to see that most people have had similar finding to me, to be honest when I was starting this thread I thought a lot of members would disagree. I find with plants like animals species are getting re-categorized, names get changed, species are getting broken up & re-named & things are still been discovered, this can make it very hard to stay on top of Latin names & means old books are no longer as helpful. I know this problem well because when I was younger I spent years learning the Latin names of Australian reptiles & amphibians, the people I respected told me to forget about "common names" as they can be different depending on were you are & the people your talking to. This made sense & still does but when I had a few years of & went traveling some zoologists with access to new science decided Australian fauna need to be broken down, moved around & re-named leaving about half of what I had learned the way it was but changed the other half, making my years of study a bit of a waist of time . Thanks for peoples input, look forward to hearing more. Cheers Jox 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted June 4, 2013 http://postimg.org/image/3n6ucdwqv/full/'> a non caespitosa graft. it split itself from the center but not pupping I have done several from a a strain with at least some caespitosa characteristics, but which are not excessive when ungrafted. and I have done some of the extremely caespitosa form. I can suppose this is the true caespitosa. http://postimg.org/image/4rrpqa4g7/full/'> 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) CAESPITOSA TO THE EXTREME!!! ^^^ if you figure out what is pupping from what, let me know to help you the 5 consecutive shots are going around Edited June 23, 2013 by mutant 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted June 26, 2013 CAESPITOSA TO THE EXTREME!!! ^^^ if you figure out what is pupping from what, let me know to help you the 5 consecutive shots are going around I wholeheartedly disagree with your synopsis. IMHO it is totally disingenuous to suggest ANYTHING grafted as being caespitose in nature, since the mere action of grafting typically implies forced growth. Trying to draw a comparison between forced, mutated growth to a naturally occurring growth is just wrong. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted June 27, 2013 I will write the synopsis (btw also two greek words, syn and opsis) close to my death I was not presenting no comparison, only forms of caespitosa growth... I did not realise we were still debating this ... do you feel caespitosa form is rare?? not really ime I am not sure where you were objecting, zelly, I am sure you got lots more experience than me mate, sure. me no afraid to say this is forma A or forma B, and why should I ? Me got a good eye , hey? hurry not friends, remember what happended to the rabbit , so, this grafted freak is the only such extremist from a group of grafted lophos, we'll see, half are the extreme caespitosa, and other half are plain lopho with normal caespitosa expression... PS: if you're saying that this extreme pupping is due to the very good graft of mine or stock energy, then, thank you, but I believe its due to the extreme caespitosa form of which I have many , some of which are these grafts... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sclaws Posted July 8, 2013 Any loph can grow in the caespitose form (I have jourdaniana and koerehsii as caespitose). It is also the case that williamsii has been produced for some time in a stable caespitosa form the seeds of which are always caespitose. The originating breeder (or one of them- at least the one I know), based in the the UK, has produced cloned stock the seeds of which tend to flower younger and more frequently than more original caespitosa- in turn their seeds are caespitosa. My guess is that what started as a "sport" or oddity is now reliably stable. Since caespitose has a distinct form and will readilly hydridise with normal williamsii I guess it is now a variety (however not one that existed in the wild as a stable population). Naming of cacti is changing scene- I say lets keep it simple- if you like it grow it! 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jox Posted February 27, 2014 Just an update, here is a photo showing one of the plants from the first post. This photo was taken this morning, the seeds were sown on the 3/11/12 making it 1 year and nearly 4 months old. Cheers Jox 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted February 27, 2014 Wow Jox, those must have been some pretty magical seeds.... In no time it all it should begin to look like the mother plant..... 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
