Extreme Reaction to SAB Zonk Product.

[Bread Filter]

A few weeks back I had an extreme reaction to the ZONK pills from SAB that caused a rather frightening experience and I was just wondering what the major interaction was.

I took 100mg Tramadol SR then 300ml of grapefruit juice, (I like GFJ, it wasn't to potentiate), then 30 minutes later took 2 Zonk pills in the place of 5mg valium as I was looking into using the Zonk product as a valium replacement.

Within 10 minutes of taking the Zonk pills I was beginning to get extremely sedated and had to get my GF to drive me home as I wasn't feeling right. By the end of the 2 minute drive I was fast asleep and went straight to bed where I "slept" for an hour.

The alarming part was that my mind was still completely awake but my body was completely knocked out to the point where I was forgetting to breathe. I had to get my GF to stay there while I was out as we were both concerned. My GF then got me some toast with butter and within 2 minutes I was completely wide awake and fine.

I don't have diabetes and had eaten properly that day so have ruled out blood sugar levels. The tramadol was a sustained release formulation that would have only been starting to break down as the ordeal happened. Was the GFJ what caused the extreme sedation? There is no way in the world I will ever mix the 3 substances again but would like to continue buying Zonk instead of Valium for future use. I just don't want this to happen again.

Any thoughts?

[Genesis]

Shit man, that sounds horrid. I know the feeling, I usta get these weird sleep fuck ups as I was dozing off. As I began to nod my mind was still working but my body wouldnt move and I would have like a mini panic attack till I could get my legs and arms to work, lol.

Scary scary, couldn't imagine it for longer then a few seconds though.

[SunChaser]

lol, it's called being too paranoid dude.

Might give them a try though, if there really that good. Though, 50mg of temazepams can't even knock me out and I'm only a little bloke. So personally I doubt they'd even actually work for me, but you've got me interested now.

[Horus]

Hey Bread,

Well....after reading in other threads of your immunity to some of the other things you have been trying,

it must be a relief in some way that you actually got some effect,thus your moneys worth out of something!

Will keep an eye on this thread,to see how workable this gear is..

Take it easy,nothing like a wake up call.....or a not waking up call.....or a not breathing call...

[Evil Genius]

Hi Bread Filter, i dont like Tramadol. Not only that it causes seizures, it also totally wrecked my circulation and made me have similar reactions. Even breakdowns sometimes. If i were you, i´d test if you have the same problems without the Tramadol. bye Eg

[FancyPants]

I've had mixed experiences with tramadol too. Sometimes I can "make" it feel similar to a low dose MDxx, and sometimes I can "make" it feel similar to a drowsy opiate. Perhaps the GFJ potentiated all separate substances in the Zonk and tramadol to end up with that reaction?

[Bread Filter]

Perhaps the GFJ potentiated all separate substances in the Zonk and tramadol to end up with that reaction?

 

That is what I was thinking too. I am trying to work out which of the ingredients is massively potentiated by GFJ. The Tramal shouldn't have even partially dissolved in that time frame. I won't ever be doing it again though and don't advise anyone to try this.

I am legitimately concerned that someone could be killed if it is the GFJ that is causing the problem. Especially if someone took the recommended 3 Zonk pills for sleep.

For the record it was white GFJ, its definitely an acquired taste

[Bread Filter]

Hi Bread Filter, i dont like Tramadol. Not only that it causes seizures, it also totally wrecked my circulation and made me have similar reactions. Even breakdowns sometimes. If i were you, i´d test if you have the same problems without the Tramadol. bye Eg

 

I am too scared to try it again. It was honestly one of the most frightening experiences in my life and I grew up in Charnwood! I put it up there with the fear from my first Salvia experience.

Forgetting to breathe is not fun, at least with Nitrous your unaware that you are dieing.

[lofty86]

ive been doing some google searching on the ingredients in the zonk pills and im guessing the combination of grapfruit juice on top of the tramadol, as well as both the aporphine,and nuciferine from the blue lotus caused the breathing difficullty and the limbo dreamstate like some sort of mu opiod overdose. nuciferine itself is used to induce catalepsy and inhibit spontanious motor activity.

tramadol as well as being a mu opiod recetor agonist also has weak SNRI action, in the zonk pills you have skullcap, containing baicalin an enzyme that acts as a hormone releasing agent which stimulates the release of oxytocin and also has some action on the GABA receptors. celadine, containing coptisine an MAO-AI affecting dopamine levels. hops, with dimethylvinyl carbinol a hypnotic and anticonvulsant. and blue lotus with both aporphine an opiod type drug and nuciferine a dopamine agonist.

it looks like a lot of thought went into the synergy of zonk and it seems like it would be resonably safe on its own the products been around for at least 5yrs and this is the first negative experience report ive heard.

does zonk have a warning on the label not to use in combination with pharmaceutical drugs? maybe it needs one.

surely if it was the grapfruit juice adversley affecting the zonk somone else would have experienced a reaction by now?

Edited July 14, 2010 by lofty86

[Bread Filter]

Thanks for the post lofty, very informative.

The Zonk product by itself is brilliant. I have been using it for years now and would recommend it to anyone. When compared with buying Valium on the street at $5 for a 5mg tablet, the Zonk definitely works out better value. $12 for 50 on the PBS is a better deal though for those who can access it.

Zonk doesn't have any kind of warning on the label. I definitely think it needs one now.

I thought the same thing about the GFJ, surely I am not the only person who likes grapefruit juice!

[C_T]

i find in 99% unlikely its the grape fruit.

so did it suppress your breathing or was your chest still moving up/down but airflow restricted in the upper airways?

downers with downers can do this so i'm not surprised at all.

[Bread Filter]

i find in 99% unlikely its the grape fruit.

so did it suppress your breathing or was your chest still moving up/down but airflow restricted in the upper airways?

downers with downers can do this so i'm not surprised at all.

 

My breathing wasn't suppressed at all. I just felt like I was forgetting to breathe as my body was so heavily sedated yet my mind was still wide awake. It definitely wasn't an anxiety attack.

I am well aware of the effects of mixing CNS depressants, this was like nothing I had ever experienced before and was truly frightening.

[FancyPants]

i find in 99% unlikely its the grape fruit.

so did it suppress your breathing or was your chest still moving up/down but airflow restricted in the upper airways?

downers with downers can do this so i'm not surprised at all.

 

GFJ is well known to potentiate opioids. It's been a while since I read why, and I never got around to trying it because I ferkin' hate GFJ

[Bread Filter]

GFJ is well known to potentiate opioids. It's been a while since I read why, and I never got around to trying it because I ferkin' hate GFJ

 

It inhibits the CYP3A4 enzyme which affects the metabolism of a range of drugs and can increase their bioavailability. I think thats word for word from Wiki, I have been trying to memorise it.

[lampy]

I have also had a bad reaction to Zonk about a year ago.

It was at a festival in a country with better laws than aust.

I had taken a line or two of K and a small amount of cid earlier in the day and had nearly back to baseline.

I then took around 250mg 5htp and drank a few beers.

Then took 2-3 zonk caps to get to sleep as it was around 3.00pm and i wanted to get up later that night to go dancing.

About an hr later i had heavy sedation and a stimulating feeling at the same time which was not pleasant. I was sweating profusely. I could not sleep/move/think for about 3 hrs. I also felt that my breathing instinct was reduced. I had to constantly remind my self to breath. This also happens to me on high dose mushrooms. I find my self holding my breath for long periods

I have had zonk before but never with these symptoms. I think it may have been the 5htp that did it.

[Bread Filter]

Your effects sound similar to mine lampy. How did you get Zonk overseas or did you take it with you?

[Chiral]

i find in 99% unlikely its the grape fruit.

 

ScienceDaily (Aug. 20, 2008) — Scientists and consumers have known for years that grapefruit juice can increase the absorption of certain drugs — with the potential for turning normal doses into toxic overdoses. Now, the researcher who first identified this interaction is reporting new evidence that grapefruit and other common fruit juices, including orange and apple, can do the opposite effect by substantially decreasing the absorption of other drugs, potentially wiping out their beneficial effects.

The study provides a new reason to avoid drinking grapefruit juice and these other juices when taking certain drugs, including some that are prescribed for fighting life-threatening conditions such as heart disease, cancer, organ-transplant rejection, and infection, the researcher says. These findings — representing the first controlled human studies of this type of drug-lowering interaction — were described today at the 236th National Meeting of the American Chemical Society.

"Recently, we discovered that grapefruit and these other fruit juices substantially decrease the oral absorption of certain drugs undergoing intestinal uptake transport," says study leader David G. Bailey, Ph.D., a professor of clinical pharmacology with the University of Western Ontario in London, Ontario. "The concern is loss of benefit of medications essential for the treatment of serious medical conditions."

Bailey and colleagues announced almost 20 years ago the unexpected finding that grapefruit juice can dramatically boost the body's levels of the high-blood-pressure drug felodipine, causing potentially dangerous effects from excessive drug concentrations in the blood. Since then, other researchers have identified nearly 50 medications that carry the risk of grapefruit-induced drug-overdose interactions. As a result of the so-called "Grapefruit Juice Effect," some prescription drugs now carry warning labels against taking grapefruit juice or fresh grapefruit during drug consumption.

In the most recent research, Bailey's group had healthy volunteers take fexofenadine, an antihistamine used to fight allergies. The volunteers consumed the drug with either a single glass of grapefruit juice, water containing only naringin (substance in grapefruit juice that gives the juice its bitter taste), or water. When fexofenadine was taken with grapefruit juice, only half of the drug was absorbed compared to taking the drug with water alone, Bailey says. Loosing half of the amount of drugs taken into the body can be critical for the performance certain drugs, he points out.

They also showed that the active ingredient of grapefruit juice, naringin, appears to block a key drug uptake transporter, called OATP1A2, involved in shuttling drugs from the small intestine to the bloodstream. Blocking this transporter reduces drug absorption and neutralizes their potential benefits, the researchers say. By contrast, drugs whose levels are boosted in the presence of grapefruit juice appear to block an important drug metabolizing enzyme, called CYP3A4, that normally breaks down drugs.

"This is just the tip of the iceberg," Bailey says. "I'm sure we'll find more and more drugs that are affected this way."

To date, grapefruit, orange and apple juices have been shown to lower the absorption of etoposide, an anticancer agent; certain beta blockers (atenolol, celiprolol, talinolol) used to treat high blood pressure and prevent heart attacks; cyclosporine, a drug taken to prevent rejection of transplanted organs; and certain antibiotics (ciprofloxacin, levofloxacin, itraconazole). But additional drugs are likely to be added to the list as physicians become more aware of this drug-lowering interaction, Bailey says.

Orange and apple juices also appear to contain naringin-like substances that inhibit OATP1A2, Bailey says. The chemical in oranges appears to be hesperidin, but the chemical in apples has not yet been identified, the researchers notes.

Bailey advises patients to consult with their doctor or pharmacist before taking any medications with grapefruit juice or other fruits and juices. Unless it is known to be a problem, he recommends taking most medications only with water. This research was funded by grants from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and the United States Public Health Service.

SOURCE OF INFORMATION

[-Zero-]

if you go onto drugs.com u can type in ur chosen drug and it will tell you if it reacts with grapefruit and to what extent in the interactions part

[mutant]

maybe its the same mechanism lemon juice potentiates psilo tea and/or other drugs... maybe it's just an increase in metabolism rates making the effects more obvious and intense

[Chiral]

maybe its the same mechanism lemon juice potentiates psilo tea and/or other drugs... maybe it's just an increase in metabolism rates making the effects more obvious and intense

 

likely it is allowing more of the drug to be passed across the blood brain barrier by preventing a larger percentage of the drug than usual, from being metabolized in the gut and passed on for excretion unused.

95% of amphetamine is passed through the body unused, but if you make your gut alkaline prior to ingestion, you can increase the amount of amphetamine passed to the blood brain barrier, this does not make the hit heavier or stronger though apparently, rather it prolongs the actual high, also the drug will show up on a tox screen or drug test much longer afterward than usual.

I think the term "potentiates" is slightly misused when it comes to drugs, the amount of drug you are taking is still the same, rather another secondary substance is acting like a police escort to get it to it's destination undisturbed or obliterated by our stomach acids. The relationship of ascorbic acid and stomach acid is where this information is to be found.

GASTRIC ACID

Edited July 15, 2010 by Chiral

[lampy]

95% of amphetamine is passed through the body unused, but if you make your gut alkaline prior to ingestion, you can increase the amount of amphetamine passed to the blood brain barrier, this does not make the hit heavier or stronger though apparently, rather it prolongs the actual high, also the drug will show up on a tox screen or drug test much longer afterward than usua

i tried to test this theory a few years ago with MD. Collecting urine while intoxicated and drinking a day or so later. No effects were noted. Maybe the some change in stomach, acidic conditions?

Edited July 15, 2010 by lampy

[ThunderIdeal]

95% of amphetamine is passed through the body unused,

 

i've been thinking about this. wiki actually has lower figures but i've just read that with acidic urine (eg ph 5.0) that 99 percent passes through the kidneys. does this really mean it is unused? once it's in the blood brain barrier does it not come back out? if it does then maybe it's not accurate to say it enters the bladder unused. *shrug*

[Chiral]

i've been thinking about this. wiki actually has lower figures but i've just read that with acidic urine (eg ph 5.0) that 99 percent passes through the kidneys. does this really mean it is unused? once it's in the blood brain barrier does it not come back out? if it does then maybe it's not accurate to say it enters the bladder unused. *shrug*

 

Pharmacokinetics

On average, about one half of a given dose is eliminated unchanged in the urine, while the other half is broken down into various metabolites (mostly benzoic acid).[50] However, the drug's half-life is highly variable because the rate of excretion is very sensitive to urinary pH. Under alkaline conditions, direct excretion is negligible and 95%+ of the dose is metabolized. Having an alkaline stomach will cause the drug to be absorbed faster through the stomach resulting in a higher blood level concentration of amphetamine. Having an alkaline bladder causes the drug to be excreted very slowly. The main metabolic pathway is:

dextroamphetamine \rightarrow \; phenylacetone \rightarrow \; benzoic acid \rightarrow \; hippuric acid.

Another pathway, mediated by enzyme CYP2D6, is:

dextroamphetamine \rightarrow \; p-hydroxyamphetamine \rightarrow \; p-hydroxynorephedrine.

Although p-hydroxyamphetamine is a minor metabolite (~5% of the dose), it may have significant physiological effects as a norepinephrine analogue.[51]

Subjective effects are increased by larger doses, however, over the course of a given dose there is a noticeable divergence between such effects and drug concentration in the blood.[52] In particular, mental effects peak before maximal blood levels are reached, and decline as blood levels remain stable or even continue to increase.[53][54][55] This indicates a mechanism for development of acute tolerance, perhaps distinct from that seen in chronic use.[56]

WIKI DEXTRO PAGE

sorry for slight sidetrack powdered toast man...

Im sure you find this stuff of interest too.

[ThunderIdeal]

seems to imply that alkalising gives you the added neurotoxicity from having it stick around longer without any of the benefits you might expect from such.

[C_T]

so its not the grape juice in-particular, but the fact of alkaline gut from it, an many things could cause this state.. is that what i'm seeing here?

i swear 2 or 3 beers steadily, then taking anything will enhance and bring on the onset much quicker, i'm sure its more the way it speeds up the metabolism, perhaps combined with alkaline juice could be the go.