Looming Constitutional Challenge on plant use as religious freedom

[sweeet]

... have been granted the right to put our constitutional arguments in the state court.

... We get to put the argument to a jury and go for jury nullification.

IIRC these two arguments were previously denied by the County Court, so while this particular HCA appeal was rejected the outcome is still a positive one if those two statements are true.

[ThunderIdeal]

i didn't think i was alone in being interested in jondoe's comments but simultaneously not knowing how to take them. the consequences of his comments if true are pretty enormous. can anybody comment on the likelihood of this scenario?

[lightning]

i didn't think i was alone in being interested in jondoe's comments but simultaneously not knowing how to take them. the consequences of his comments if true are pretty enormous. can anybody comment on the likelihood of this scenario?

Thunder while I understand and in fact agree with much of what jondoe said, I see no gain being made by denying the jurisdiction of the courts or challenging the integrity of the court to their face.

The legal basis of the sovereignty of the Parliament given the Treaty of Versailles and Australia's standing as a nation state is tenuous at best and we urgently need a new constitution and bill of rights. however that is a very separate issue to dealing with criminal charges under the current regime and laws. Holding the government to the letter of their own law (regardless of thoughts about the overall validity or otherwise of the current regime of laws) is the only approach that can change the law. Standing outside and throwing stones accomplishes nothing. Working within the system, showing due respect for the rule of law and turning their own rules against them will expose their hypocrisy for all to see.

We may as the nay sayers contend fail in our quest but at least we are giving it our best crack.

Constructive criticism to strengthen our arguments may help us achieve the goals we all seek for freedom of the plants, shit canning us for trying to bring change is petty and counter productive and shows an agenda well removed from the principles espoused by this site

[SunChaser]

As intelligent as you think you are lightning (or as intelligent as you may be) do you really honestly believe that the government is going to let a couple of what they consider ‘drug addicts’ pensioners come in there and tell them how it is?

The fight continues, and if they admit their lies and hypocrisy, we may show them mercy.

I mean comments like this really show the lack of reality you possess when it comes to government powers, even if you were right and it was humanly possible to beat them at their own game in the court room, it will not be done by you! You have no connections, money or any kind of qualifications to even register on their radar. You don’t even possess the diplomatic ability to put some little shit stirrer like jondoe back in their place with a intelligent comment, you just seem to get offended that he doesn’t agree with you and crack the shits, which will get you nowhere in the court room, which is made quite clear with comments like this.

I understand your arguments and do not disagree with all you say but simply do not have the time or inclination to argue with you.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. Either jump on board and use your obvious intellect to help in the fight or stay out of the thread please.

You may not have the time, but the fact is, ‘they do’. They have the time, money and the power to do whatever they like and they will/do implement these skills whenever they choose. They will lead you on like the donkey and the carrot for as long as ‘they’ choose, till your worn down to your last grasp of energy and it will be you who is begging for mercy, NOT THEM!

All respect to ya for (hopelessly) trying. I mean you could have easierly plead guilty, paid your fine and done your drug course, or whatever. But the reality is the only way the cannabis plant will be made legal for medical purposes in Australia is if the government says it can! For the sake of argument, even if you somehow succeeded, the government would just straight away pass some emergency act though parliament, without a single person opposing it from the opposition.

The only way cannabis will be made medically available in Australia is if the people of Australia want it and put their hand out to the government and say, please sir!

When’s the last time you’ve even heard the Australian mainstream media even say the words ‘medical cannabis’. The average Australian doctor will consider you just another junkie if you go in there and tell him you’re a medical cannabis user and the average Australian citizen has not even heard of it and even if they did/have they will/don’t give the slightest fuck about it, whether there tokers or not!

Until the Australian people are educated about the medical benefits of cannabis it is simply ‘not’ going to happen. The only way we can educate the people or force the media to report fact and not just government propaganda, or meaningless drug bust stories is though a law reform movement, not the courts.

You will not beat them in court at their own game!

People like me who don’t have the social skills to rock down to the local pub (or a property to grow a yearly supply) to start a conversation and work out a bag of weed will be fucking their bodies up with benzodiazepams and cold water codeine extractions for many years to come, that’s the fact of the matter.

You can tell me I’m just attacking you or trying to stuff the cause up all you like, I no longer give a fuck what anyone thinks about me, I’m just calling it like I see it, to them where nothing but junkies trying to get an easy high! Nothing will happen till that attitude changes.

[reptyle]

As the rain always find its way down the greatest mountain, eventuallly finding the sea, so the path of logic must proceed from the hieghts of the law to the freedom everyday life.

The more clouds, the more rain, the more forcefully the water travels...the more people, the more scenarios, the fasster the true law is unveiled.

flood this town.

peacefully...

[hutch]

As the rain always find its way down the greatest mountain, eventuallly finding the sea, so the path of logic must proceed from the hieghts of the law to the freedom everyday life.

The more clouds, the more rain, the more forcefully the water travels...the more people, the more scenarios, the fasster the true law is unveiled.

flood this town.

peacefully...

Just beautiful

Is the quote your's?

[sweeet]

You may not have the time, but the fact is, ‘they do’. They have the time, money and the power to do whatever they like and they will/do implement these skills whenever they choose. They will lead you on like the donkey and the carrot for as long as ‘they’ choose, till your worn down to your last grasp of energy and it will be you who is begging for mercy,

Eddie Mabo was a gardener. He challenged those in power by the letter of the law. And he won.

Don't be so defeatist.

[botanika]

As the rain always find its way down the greatest mountain, eventuallly finding the sea, so the path of logic must proceed from the hieghts of the law to the freedom everyday life.

The more clouds, the more rain, the more forcefully the water travels...the more people, the more scenarios, the fasster the true law is unveiled.

flood this town.

peacefully...

Nice quote!

Edited October 4, 2009 by botanika

[jondoe]

jondoe, I have separated your 'broken record' rants once before because they are not helping in this thread. I would have thought you were getting the hint when that thread died. You have made you position clear and we all know what you think, so why don't you just let Niall and Lightning get on with their attempt at what they think rather than putting them down at every step of the way. If you perspective of the legal system is so interesting, then why isn't your other thread moving along?

I am not saying niall is right, but change never happens if people listen to naysayers like yourself. You've had your say in this thread [twice] and you are getting on people's nerves [non-participating bystanders are reporting you as spam!], so please butt out and start your own threads.

Well, how can I respond to this little gem, non-participating bystanders are reporting you as spam! As the site POLICEMAN and self appointed site JUDGE and ADMINISTRATION OFFICER I really beleive that you should take more notice of these people and start a few other threads and see if I take any notice of them.

I could comment on some of the other rants but I wont bother, some of the Ethnobotanicalists and bush lawyers will get offended.

I dont feel that any further comments are required by me and this thread will go on for years if it follows the prosecution but there will be no successful appeals in this matter so it could be over when the defendents do some time at Her Majesty's pleasure regardless of the beliefs of their supporters.

[SunChaser]

Eddie Mabo was a gardener. He challenged those in power by the letter of the law. And he won.

Don't be so defeatist.

Well, that's my hole point. That issue had public and media support, this does not. So the government would never allow it! Doesn't matter what the consitution states about religious freedom, it's there game, not ours.

Jondoe, I only made my mind up about you when you stated your opinion about 'ethnobotanicals' which I feel was a sugar coated way of saying you were againsts them. I have no time for that kind of ignorance. Other than that I was personally interested in what you had to say.

Peace

[jondoe]

Well, that's my hole point. That issue had public and media support, this does not. So the government would never allow it! Doesn't matter what the consitution states about religious freedom, it's there game, not ours.

Jondoe, I only made my mind up about you when you stated your opinion about 'ethnobotanicals' which I feel was a sugar coated way of saying you were againsts them. I have no time for that kind of ignorance. Other than that I was personally interested in what you had to say.

Peace

I did not provide a sugar coated opinion either way and I dont beleive that I could honestly say that I am againt the ethnobotanicalists as I rely on a form of medication for pain releif in the same way, but I try and use substances that dont effect my thought processes and wipe me out for hours or days. If any person wishes to use MJ for medicial purposes or pain relief that is entirely up to them but public policy dictates otherwise and they know that.

I have not made my mind up about any opinion posted on this site, cant see why you did, I just provided opinion and supportered the opinion with evidence to support my comments, it got removed to another thread by the local forum Policeman so I guess that he has made up his mind as well.

I am suggesting that this matter will never be dealt with in any bulshit statutory court, they are not courts exercising judicial power without your consent, they are legal proceedings, conducted by member of the legal professiion and the self litigants, surreptitiously created with the implied consent of both parties under their statutory rules and they are dealing with public policy made by the very people who you willingly elect to sit in the Parliament and create this soft law for and on your behalf. Nothing to do with the Queen or the Sovereign whoever that my be.

If you beleive that any other person has the authority to exercise power and affect your substantive rights and you consent or apply to go into their legal system you will be bound by the results of the fraudlent process that you have willingly entered into.

It is a commercial system as you enter into a contract with the court (tribunal) to deal with the matter in dispute, you pay them a fee to conduct the business of the court. I suspect that it would have been a thousand dollar fee plus, to have the High Tribunal Office close the doors on the application for leave.

I have seen many many applications go the same way and this scamm will continue for many years to come.

[fractalreality]

Just a quick thought - a great deal of the successful court cases in the States have been influenced by the expert witnesses involved, people like Chris Conrad.

Now I realise they are way ahead of us, particularly in California, but as far as proving to these numskulls that Cannabis has real and proven medical benefits (not just pain relief but some of the amazing stuff they have been doing with THC and tumour reduction - I will find a link to the published study and post it asap) - would it help us to import some experts???

If they won't take us seriously they may have difficulty in ignoring people whose opinions have already been ratified in real cases. If we can provide some one who can prove that Cannibis is not simply a drug but a medicine don't they have to prove that it is not to deny it? Expert vs Expert. (After reading that statement it sounds a bit like a pipe dream - no pun intended).

Either way I think Johndoe's medication is making him cranky - half our problem is we spend so much time getting on eachother's nerves and not realising we are all on the same side. If you have made it to this forum you are passionate about something in this area (or atleast I hope we all are) - it's time for some three musketeers action! One for all and all for one!

[jondoe]

Just a quick thought - a great deal of the successful court cases in the States have been influenced by the expert witnesses involved, people like Chris Conrad.

Now I realise they are way ahead of us, particularly in California, but as far as proving to these numskulls that Cannabis has real and proven medical benefits (not just pain relief but some of the amazing stuff they have been doing with THC and tumour reduction - I will find a link to the published study and post it asap) - would it help us to import some experts???

If they won't take us seriously they may have difficulty in ignoring people whose opinions have already been ratified in real cases. If we can provide some one who can prove that Cannibis is not simply a drug but a medicine don't they have to prove that it is not to deny it? Expert vs Expert. (After reading that statement it sounds a bit like a pipe dream - no pun intended).

Either way I think Johndoe's medication is making him cranky - half our problem is we spend so much time getting on eachother's nerves and not realising we are all on the same side. If you have made it to this forum you are passionate about something in this area (or atleast I hope we all are) - it's time for some three musketeers action! One for all and all for one!

My medication, or I should say my diet, has not made me cranky and I dont know how you have come to that conclusion but its your right to have that opinion.

As for your statement half our problem is we spend so much time getting on eachother's nerves

Its very obvious that I have got on somebodies nerves, the people on this site dont get on my nerves at all so I dont understand why you make that statement as its infers that the people on this site get on my nerves, if they did I would not bother posting any comments on this site.

As for the information I provide on this site, I dont see anybody suggesting its incorrect and prooving I am wrong, the problem is they simply dont understand the facts of how our LEGAL SYSTEM has been hijacked by a particular section of the community and the elite members of the legal profession who have absolute control over the other pretenders.

When you realise what is happening behind the scenes, or what has NOT taken place in relation to the creation of so called laws or public policy, you may have half a chance of being successful with your pursuits in relation to the medical use of your favourite plant or other substances.

lightning I see no gain being made by denying the jurisdiction of the courts or challenging the integrity of the court to their face.

If you honestly think that there is some integrity in the court and that it has jurisdiction to exercise judicial power over your rights, what do you base this belief on ?

If the so called laws are not created in accordence with the State and Commonwealth Constitution and these laws create the courts and the judicial appointments, dont you think it would be prudent to actually check that all the procedures have been done correctly in compliance with the Constitutions.

The facts are that this has not happened, and it has been done this way specifically so the jurisdiction is provided by the parties before the court and not the law or authority of the grub wearing the black or red robes in the court room.

The courts can only exist or be constituted in accordence with the laws created by the Parliament that you all take part in electing and the one very important procedure is the Royal Assent issued by the Governor or Governor-General for and on behalf of the Sovereign. We are not yet a Republic are we, we are alleged to be a Constitutional Monachy with a westminister system of government.

If this Royal Assent has not been issued, properly signed and sealed, it has not happened at all, so we dont have laws with force, only terms and condition of public policy set out in the Bill passed by the Legislative Assembly in Qld. Qld does not have an upper house.

In the Commonwealth it has to be passed by both the Legislative Assembly and the Senate.

Edited October 14, 2009 by jondoe

[botanika]

Just a quick thought - a great deal of the successful court cases in the States have been influenced by the expert witnesses involved, people like Chris Conrad.

Now I realise they are way ahead of us, particularly in California, but as far as proving to these numskulls that Cannabis has real and proven medical benefits (not just pain relief but some of the amazing stuff they have been doing with THC and tumour reduction - I will find a link to the published study and post it asap) - would it help us to import some experts???

If they won't take us seriously they may have difficulty in ignoring people whose opinions have already been ratified in real cases. If we can provide some one who can prove that Cannibis is not simply a drug but a medicine don't they have to prove that it is not to deny it? Expert vs Expert. (After reading that statement it sounds a bit like a pipe dream - no pun intended).

I don’t think it would matter. Prohibition is about money and therefore power. You can throw expert witnesses, petitions and religious freedom at the courts all you like. They already know all about Cannabis and its values and religious liberties are not limitless. It doesn’t take much investigation into this plant to reveal its long valid history and relationship with humans. But the authorities don’t care what a drug does – the reason for prohibition is to set up a black market (money for nothing) and Cannabis is good at maintaining that. California has made progress in part due to better funded and more advanced reform organizations but is still ultimately subject to Federal law. Perhaps it’s better spending time and money advancing legitimate reform groups than high court costs. Australian drug reform is kinda like our snowfields – slow slushy skiing that often freezes up overnight.

[Neoshaman]

I don’t think it would matter. Prohibition is about money and therefore power. You can throw expert witnesses, petitions and religious freedom at the courts all you like. They already know all about Cannabis and its values and religious liberties are not limitless. It doesn’t take much investigation into this plant to reveal its long valid history and relationship with humans. But the authorities don’t care what a drug does – the reason for prohibition is to set up a black market (money for nothing) and Cannabis is good at maintaining that. California has made progress in part due to better funded and more advanced reform organizations but is still ultimately subject to Federal law. Perhaps it’s better spending time and money advancing legitimate reform groups than high court costs. Australian drug reform is kinda like our snowfields – slow slushy skiing that often freezes up overnight.

hmm thats what i said over at ozstoners and got the shit abused out of me by various members "cause we should be supporting these guys", while i admire lighning and niall I still have to say my opinion is that something like an Australian NORML chapter would be far more effective

[botanika]

hmm thats what i said over at ozstoners and got the shit abused out of me by various members "cause we should be supporting these guys", while i admire lighning and niall I still have to say my opinion is that something like an Australian NORML chapter would be far more effective

By offering critique you are doing much more than just supporting them. It's a little bit like architectural design. You can have all the structural support in the world but what's also important is understanding the site, having correct development approval and rigorous but open minded review/critique processes. No offence intended but IMO Niall and Lightning are trying to build a church on steep goverment owned land. NORML knows it can't own the land but the more people that expand such organizations the better chance there is to rent some of it. Cripes, does that make sense?

Edited October 14, 2009 by botanika

[Neoshaman]

By offering critique you are doing much more than just supporting them. It's a little bit like architectural design. You can have all the structural support in the world but what's important is understanding the site, having correct development approval and a commitment to rigorous review processes. Naill and lightning are trying to build a church on steep goverment owned land. NORML knows it can't own the land but the more people that advance such organizations the better chance there is to rent some of it. Haha does that make sense?

I'm still keen to do it and being an accountant I could at least try to get DGR status all i need is 5 Australians willing to become Members of NORML in the US so we can sign off on all necessary paper work and application to get approval to create an Australian Chapter I have a few contacts in NORML in the US and one of the Australian Medical Cannabis groups so I would say its still definitely a posabillity however its all depends on others supporting the cause Maybe that was my mistake right idea , wrong forum

[Light&Love]

The only reason why people are pissed off at jondoe is because he has told everyone the truth, and sometimes that is harder to bear than the created reality that everyone believes may happen.

A man convinced against his will

Is of the same opinion still.

Im going to say something that everyone knows, in their hearts, is true.

Australia, or any country for that matter, will never legalize anything that can improve your life in any way, shape or form. END OF STORY.

You people who have any hope(like i did for a few months) need to just let it go, because in our lifespan, NOTHING that makes you more intelligent, happier, healthier, will EVER be legalized.

Everyone acts like they think they can change everything, but the ultimate bottom line is, in this life, corruption runs supreme over anything good. And until whoever or whatever comes down in and around 2012, NOTHING will change.

FUCK DRUG REFORM. FUCK LAW REFORM. ITS NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. Stop arguing with each other and start enjoying what little time you have on this beautiful planet.

Peace

[ballzac]

Fuck abolition of slavery. Fuck abolition of apartheid. Fuck women's rights. Fuck...

[Light&Love]

Fuck abolition of slavery. Fuck abolition of apartheid. Fuck women's rights. Fuck...

Keep dreaming mate. I am in no way, shape or form, against 'the movement', but the things you have suggested were ALLOWED to happen. Im not going to argue with you about stupid shit, but what i believe is that we are living in a land of 'controlled freedom', where we can express ourselves to a certain point, and nothing more. This whole world we are living in is such a big mindfuck, and thats all.

Peace

[fractalreality]

WOW - we do have passion!

I do not believe for one second that we are powerless - that is not to say that it won't be nigh on impossible to get the authorities to recognitise their position on Cannabis.

Johndoe - to be honest I agree with you up to a point (and I apologise - by making that re your meds comment, I was contirbuting to the disharmony between us!)- people do need to FULLY understand a system to have any chance of being successful within it. That said I do not think that we are completely hopeless to achieve this. If we could convince (and I am not saying we could) every Queen's Council (QC) Barrister in Australia to admit that they love snorting coke then that shit would be legal in a heart beat! And the fact is they probably have a chuff the next day to deal with the headache!

Regarding the comments on California getting ahead because they have more organised and better funded movements - I could not agree more. But we will never get our organtisations to be better funded when they are called OZStoners. Most of the groups in California are called things like the 'Organisation for the advancement of freedom under law for all' (ie they never mention Cannabis at all). Also I have been talking to a few people in the States who were heavily involved in getting Prop215 passed and most of the work they did was at a ground level. By that I mean they were actually going to the supermarkets and getting people to sign petitions and holding formal education nights on the 50, 000 uses for Cannabis. The fact is that normal people just do not have a clue as to how useful Cannabis/Hemp really is. NEWSFLASH - normal people make up juries. So lets educate them!

Johndoe you seem to be fairly knowledgable as to the workings of our legal/political (or atleast you type like you do) - so surely you have a responsibilty to turn that knowledge to the advancement of minority positions. I just get the feeling that the machine has crushed your spirit. I can't help but hark back to Alice's Restaurant the song by Arlo Guthrie -

"If one of us walks in sits down and sings a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walks oout they'll think you a lunatic. If two of us walk in sit down sing bar of Alice's Resaturant and walk out they think you both f*****ots and they won't take either of ya. But if ten people - i mean ten people walk in sit down sing a bar of Alice's Resaturant and walk out then they'll think it's a movement! AND BY GOD THAT'S WHAT IT WILL BE!

I just feel like they have already won if we take a defeatist attitude - they don't even need to try if we think they have already one. As the age old saying goings - WIN OR DIE TRYING.

Light and Love - did you ever stop and think that we can enjoy life more because we have clandestine access to these lovely plants and other wonderful things. How many more people would enjoy life more if we who possess the knowledge worked harder to share it?

PS. Rick Simpson in Canada is the person I was alluding to regrading THC/Cancer trials.

Edited October 14, 2009 by fractalreality

[Light&Love]

Light and Love - did you ever stop and think that we can enjoy life more because we have clandestine access to these lovely plants and other wonderful things. How many more people would enjoy life more if we who possess the knowledge worked harder to share it?

I always stop and think. It is what has gotten me past all this bullshit to get to where i am today. Are you trying to say that we(who are supposedley smarter than the average) should be more proactive in getting our message out to the people who need to hear it? BULLSHIT. Everything happens for a reason. Are WE responsible for those people who do not adequetlly heed the message? What about their responsibility to hear it and understand it for themselves?

I have tried your path, for a full two years, and what it has achieved for me is loss of friendship and respect. The truth is, when people are ready to undertake their own journey, they will heed and understand the answers in their own way, when THEY are ready. The fact of the matter is, most people that will not be saved, are truly not ready to understand, and that is why we have reincarnation, a world full of a million and one chances at getting this "game" called life, right.

Peace

[fractalreality]

Possibly the best argument for why reincarnation exists that I have heard to date! Brilliant!

But honestly - everything happens for reason? Holocaust, Car accidents, Rape? Somethings are just down to assholes and ignorance. That said I definately feel your pain - I have talked myself blue in the face to people/friends I thought knew where I was coming from only to be labelled a hippy and a druggy. But my point was not so much about respnisibilty on our full stop but responsibilty to refine our message. At the moment we have a thousand voices screaming about a thousand different aspects of the same thing. Refine the message, and aim low so as not to be disappointed.

Maybe I'm still starry-eyed and niave but I still think that if you talk to a thousand people and just one of them turns on, then that is a victory.

More peace back at ya!

Edited October 14, 2009 by fractalreality

[Light&Love]

Possibly the best argument for why reincarnation exists that I have heard to date! Brilliant!

But honestly - everything happens for reason? Holocaust, Car accidents, Rape? Somethings are just down to assholes and ignorance. That said I definately feel your pain - I have talked myself blue in the face to people/friends I thought knew where I was coming from only to be labelled a hippy and a druggy. But my point was not so much about respnisibilty on our full stop but responsibilty to refine our message. At the moment we have a thousand voices screaming about a thousand different aspects of the same thing. Refine the message, and aim low so as not to be disappointed.

Maybe I'm still starry-eyed and niave but I still think that if you talk to a thousand people and just one of them turns on, then that is a victory.

More peace back at ya!

Honestly what i believe is that people who are born into those situations were not good people in their previous lives, so their circumstances for rebirth might have to do more with paying back their karma. This is just a well thought out theory of mine, so there are honestly no guarantees as to the accuracy of what i believe, but above all else, i do believe that what i know is learned from the heart. I am a very intuitive person, so the way i pick up information is completely different from regular people. Its hard to explain, and no, im not claiming im better than anyone because im different, i just happen to believe in certain events and things that happen in a certain way, as being that way for a reason.

Your starry-eyedness(is that a word!?) probably has more to do with your youth than anything else. If you want the truth, ask God to lead you on the path to what is true, I GUARANTEE YOU HE/SHE/IT WILL NOT LET YOU DOWN.

Peace

[t st tantra]

Honestly what i believe is that people who are born into those situations were not good people in their previous lives, so their circumstances for rebirth might have to do more with paying back their karma. This is just a well thought out theory of mine, so there are honestly no guarantees as to the accuracy of what i believe, but above all else, i do believe that what i know is learned from the heart. I am a very intuitive person, so the way i pick up information is completely different from regular people. Its hard to explain, and no, im not claiming im better than anyone because im different, i just happen to believe in certain events and things that happen in a certain way, as being that way for a reason.

Your starry-eyedness(is that a word!?) probably has more to do with your youth than anything else. If you want the truth, ask God to lead you on the path to what is true, I GUARANTEE YOU HE/SHE/IT WILL NOT LET YOU DOWN.

Peace

watch out for irony......

t s t .