Urine - recovery of metabolites

[Guest reville]

No im not taking the piss

I am seriously interested in this complex substance

I was at a party the other night and ran into

some people who use 'urine therapy'

Not the most palatbale subject but very interesting

(One case was their elderly mother who without them knowing started using it and after years of frailty and osteopoosis made a remarkable improvement where conventional therapies failed to give results

My main interest was in the field of Biosynthesis and recovery

The points im interested in are

What is in urine and what isnt

eg i know melatonin makes it but serotonin doesnt

Taking that further

Ephedrine, psilocin,amphetamines opiates etc are

but what about TMA-2, Mescaline, Harmala alkaloids and things like MDA or MMDA?

Itd be good to gather up a list of those things that are and are not excreted intact

Heres and idea and a recipe a gnome i met dreamt up

Take

1 gelding, billygoat,steer or wether.

several Kilograms of Asiatic Wild carrot or Calamus root.Or even amounts of Passionflower vine .

A Urine collecting device

Get the idea?

The gnome says the idea came to him whilst reading one of Shulgins books in particular several paragraphs on the idea of Biosynthesis

My gnome friend thought mmmm but wasnt keen to use his own liver to do it

My main interest was in reclamation of melatonin and other endogenous or food based substances from Urine

What sorts of procedures would most easily remove alkaloids and tryptamines from this medium?

would you do the acid base or a solvent extraction. I wouldnt have a clue

But the prospects of recycling look good

Particularly for things where the dosage is quite high and ther may be a chance of recovery

BTW this gnome really was a gnome - i met him at a fancy dress party and the theme was 'Mythical forest creatures'

[Guest reville]

What about feeding Cows or sheep Phalaris?

Does anyone have reason to expect that 5MeO will be passed?

[Torsten]

I know little about what is passed unchanged, but extraction from urine would be a simple thing. Just reduce the volume of liquid by boiling (if alkaloids heat stable; if not then use vacuum), basify with ammonia and extract with suitable solvent (depends on alkaloid). Pool extracts and acidify. Remove alkaloids in acid water. Basify and extract with solvent. This triple phase change should remove most undesirables. From here use distillation and/or chromatography.

Maybe some of this should be attempted simply by testing the urine in GC/MS rather than trying to quantify the results by extraction.

[waterdragon]

interesting segment on landline(abc) recently where they were farming mares with urine collecting devices. hormones were the desired outcome and it is supposed to be lucrative. for more info on urine collection devices check out the abc-landline site as the recent stories are put on the web.

[Fractalhead]

I suppose i'd better go and start trying to convince my chemistry unit co-ordinator to let me run some of my friends' urine through the HPLC system. Hmmmm... i wouldn't want to let them see the chromatogram... BTW, Rev, the other day i acquired details on TLC protocols for simple indole derivatives (for the phalaris analyses) aswell as protocols for ergot alkaloid analysis. If i can get the right solvents, TLC plates, and locating reagents i can use the given retention times to work out what's present in the relevent plant/fungal materials. Need a quick field test for tryptamine content in Acacias? TLC is all we need.

Cya

[Fractalhead]

actually, come to think of it, i found TLC protocols for mda, mmda, opiates, and more. Better get a photocopyin'

[waterdragon]

hmm, got me thinking now. i wonder if anyone would get suss of a reideer farming enterprise where the primary feed source was a.muscaria? those urine collecting devices that fit the horses would easily adapt to reindeer. might get a bag made up for santa claus while i'm at it - whoops, can't use santa coz CS killed him. lest we forget.

[waterdragon]

while i'm pondering, what's wrong with you people? first there's a thread on entheogenic shit. now revs started one on piss. i wonder if i might get a discussion happening on the extraction of actives found in the snot of tryptamine snuffing shamans? and those violent ayahuasca purges, what a waste.

[Darklight]

You taking the piss WD? Freud would have a field day...

I once heard of a bloke who recycled his own piss after a binge on a prohibited substance which acts on dopaminergic receptors and reckoned he recovered a goodly portion which was subject to some bizarro process into an identical form to the original and was suitable for consumption.

Of course it wasn't discussed whether the recycled portion was bioassayed for purity, the mind boggles and the stomach retches and I walked off to the bar for another drink seeking more salubrious company

[DaNozz Direct]

 

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php3?ID=10049 - might have some information relevant to this topic, reville.

[Torsten]

waterdragon - you obviously didn't pay attention to Pier's phlegm coated millipede ingestion at EB2 then

[Caldeye]

Hi everyone,

Please don't feed any Phalaris to sheep - tryptamines are poisonous for them!

here's an URL: http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/1998/3/327bourke.htm

That's why commercial cultivars of Phalaris are usually very low in tryptamines.

Yet I heard that Amanitas are pretty safe for the reindeer...

[spaced]

Perform a search on the word "uropathy."

Also keep in mind that certain tumours in humans produce excess quantities of serotonin which could in theory be converted by methyltransferases in the body to try and retain homeostasis.

Theories that people with schizophrenia produce DMT and related compounds through the same mechanism have never been substantiated. DMT was also found in the urine of the control group.

[Auxin]

Been watching this topic and my feelings can be summed up into two words:

WHAT THE?

-Recovery would be more costly than just buying more.

-Why pass the A. muscaria through an animal, why not just use it, or extract it as is?

-You would run into more toxic metabolites than desired product.

-Some of the suggested materials contain quaternary amines as the only amine, or they are monobasic & monoacidic zwitterionic substances. Neither can be extracted by A/B methods or standard 'non-polar' solvents.

-If your gonna play with pee, why not make pheromones out of it? The potential result is much more pleasant and you would have an interesting story to tell any resulting children ("How did I meet 'mommy'? I met her by smearing my body with chemically modified urine concentrates!")

[gomaos]

When I was travelling India 20 years ago the indians talked about their prime minister. He said he drank a glass of his own urine every morning and that kept him fit and healthy. His critics said he just said that to impress the indian ppl.

At the time I just thought the indians are crazy, but here we are.

Can't bring myself to try it however, i might when I'm old and feeble (i.e. not yet)

[coin]

try the homeopathic route..you can dilute a small amount of it til you get used to the taste..you want the morning's first..mid-stream.

taste-tip: avoid caffeine (well you wouldnt want to be drinking it if it's filled with a heap of funky metabolites..other than the usuals)..heck, those indians probably douche it through their nostrils at times

[spiraleyes]

bout a year or two ago i was in the book store and i seen a book called

'the golden fountain'

once i realized what it was i had to buy it.

good coffee table book ey.

supposedly its the most complete guide to urine therepy written so far.

its not a huge book but its got a fair bit of info in it.

it tastes pretty bad,i was burpin it up all day and make sure its cold.

bit of apple juice,lovley

well...i had to give it a go

but i think ill wait till im real sick to do the daily program.

[Guest si]

ahh...another reason to convince my girlfriend that 'golden showers' are actually GOOD FOR HER !!!

[theobromos]

Auxin, which of the suggested materials is zwitterionic? You are not confusing psilocin with psilocybin surely? Also, which of the materials contain desirable quaternary amines? I looked through the thread but didn't spot them.

Perhaps you should also add the illegal nature of some of these compounds to your cost-benefit analysis.

[Auxin]

A. muscaria has Muscarine which is a quaternary amine, and it has the alpha amino acid (zwitterionic) Muscazone. Remember they were talkin 'bout feeding 'em to raindeer and milking the urine. I dont know how active muscazone is or if it would get through unaltered, but muscarine does so thats why people drink the pee of people trippin on A. muscaria.

And your right, as soon as psilocybin (zwitterionic, non-CHCl3 sol.) hits the stomach its converted to psilocin (of course its probably a mute point because it would probably be metabolized at least to 4-hydroxyindole-3-acetic acid before bein peed out, and that aint a entheogen [but it could be an active auxin])

[eccles]

wow guys, this is really incredible. and to those of you who have not read this and thought "I'll type 'urine therapy' into google and see what happens" then do

there is a good site here: http://biomedx.com/urine/

and here is an exerpt about what is normally found in urine:

In 1975, one of the founders of Miles Laboratories, Dr. A. H. Free, published his book Urinalysis in Clinical Laboratory Practice, in which he remarked that not only is urine a sterile body compound (purer than distilled water), but that it is now recognized that urine contains literally thousands of compounds. Among the urine constituents mentioned in Dr. Free's treatise is a list of nutrients that will knock your socks off. Here's just a few...

Alanine, Arginine, Ascorbic acid, Allantoin, Amino acids, Bicarbonate, Biotin, Calcium, Creatinine, Cystine, DHEA, Dopamine, Epinephrine, Folic acid, Glucose, Glutamic acid, Glycine, Inositol, Iodine, Iron, Lysine, Magnesium, Manganese, Melatonin, Methionine, Nitrogen, Ornithane, Pantothenic acid, Phenylalaline, Phosphorus, Potassium, Proteins, Riboflavin, Tryptophan, Tyrosine, Urea, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12, Zinc/

Stories have been told of individuals who have both lived and died by being trapped in places without food and water for days. Those that survived did so because they drank their own urine, those that perished did not. The ones that died probably could not overcome the mis-informed thoughts that urine is a waste product of the body. It's not. It's just a substance the body secretes that contains elements not needed at the time.

[Guest reville]

Originally posted by Auxin:

but muscarine does so thats why people drink the pee of people trippin on A. muscaria.

psilocin (of course its probably a mute point because it would probably be metabolized at least to 4-hydroxyindole-3-acetic acid before bein peed out, and that aint a entheogen [but it could be an active auxin])

point 1

Isnt the active ingredient Muscimol whilst muscarine is the undesirable toxin (lots of drooling)

Point 2

Drinking Pee after tripping on Psilocybian mushrooms does work. My (real) gnome friend has done it and told me it worked just fine.

I just want to say thanks for the commentary on this thread so far.Its added a whole lot more to my understanding

Also in terms of the cost benefit analysis

i guess it depends where you are

Whilst illegal in both countries th eresident of the USA may find it easier to track down say some more peyote buttons than to reextract from pee whilst the australian counterpart has little choice - do iit or wait 3 years (pedro) or 12 years (lophs) for another go.

There is also the matter of using the animal as the manufacturer and /or concentrator of material.The whole acid /base/defatting process occurs in the digestive tract with the material going into the blood, maybe being altered by the liver or lungs and then being nicely filtered via the kidneys.

If for example Harmala alkaloids were selectively excreted un altered then feeding a cow or goat a cut ration with Passionflower might help concentrate the material. Of course these things would have to be considered with regards to the animals wellbeing and the law of the land.

[Auxin]

"Isnt the active ingredient Muscimol whilst muscarine is the undesirable toxin"- reville

Oops left that out, yes muscimol is the prime active ingredient and its an alkaloid, but not only is it not that stable to strong acids or bases but it is also quite polar thus making a/b extraction hard with the normal 'non-polar' solvents available to home experimenters (even ether wouldn't be that effective, especially with the tiny amount that would be in pee, even if you salted the pee most of the freebase alkaloid would probably stay in the aqueous layer), it is also highly toxic in pure form.

Also while muscarine may be a undesirable toxin by itself, in combo with muscimol one mans toxin is another mans entheogen spice.

Just like the peyote ritual where the 'toxins' cause you to through up, many find that to be an integral part of the experience.

"Drinking Pee after tripping on Psilocybian mushrooms does work."- reville

Interesting! I wouldn't have expected that. Any idea what percent goes through unaltered?

Does your gnome get a full strength trip off pee from a full strength trip or is the potency notably diminished?

Anyways, in regards to purifying a single compound out of pee, no mater what you were after (aside from urea) youd need many liters of pee and the process would no doubt involve multiple extractions, ion exchange resins, column chromotography, maby activated carbon, vaccum dessication/sublimation/distilation, forming chemical derivatives to aid purification, then regenerating the original product, heavy metals, etc, etc...

Technically possible (has been done many times in professional labs mostly with the pee steroids) but HARD, costly, and time consuming.

[spiraleyes]

my book says your kidneys filter your blood,trying to keep all things at the right levels and the excess nutients etc is excreted in pee.

so pee is just filtered blood.

hmmmm

[theobromos]

Muscazone has only been found in summer-fruiting varieties of A. muscaria found in Switzerland. It was not liked as much as muscimol. As has been pointed out muscarine is not desirable. It is also only found in trace amounts that are unlikely to have any effect on the consumer. The significant toxins in A. muscaria are ibotenic acid (which is neurotoxic, which is the reason A. muscaria should always be cooked gently before use) and amavadin, a remarkable vanadium chelate. The latter is probably the cause of the usual nasty effects from prepared A. muscaria.