it cant be too much light or sunburn as they dont get very much, they sit below the level of the window and are in chambers, also getting into winter now, i thought about maybe its too wet so have been keeping the lid off for a few hours at a time. i saw a few little fly like things hanging around the one tray that i have had things die in. no worms or noticeable mould or fungi. it has only taken about 5-8 of my seedlings but they just kind of loose their turgidness and then wilt like a minature balloon unitl they are just a wee green speck. but it happens quite fast like, 24-48hrs they are gone, from looking fine. i will try repotting them all into a clean container with new soil and pumice. thanks for your suggestions i will keep looking for defining factors. kea