A psychological problem

[occidentalis]

Lately I have been living slowly and consciously, looking after my body, and attempting to pay attention to my quieter parts. This has enabled some buried issues to emerge and come to my notice. One of these seems to require a solution, which I don't know how to find... it is a fairly universal problem and I'd say most people have come across it at one stage or another. Perhaps some of you sage folk (pun intended) have some advice.

How do you forgive yourself for the nasty things you did as a kid?

I don't think anything I did was particularly evil - just the standard meanness with which kids often treat each other. Someone liked a TV show that I thought was stupid, so I gave them a hard time about it... that sort of thing. But I remember the honesty and innocence with which that girl told me she liked that TV show, and I remember the way I shattered that by telling her how stupid I thought it was... and I remember many other times that similar acts of emotional and psychological violence were inflicted on others by myself intentionally.

I'm sure none of them are scarred in any way by it, just like how I've gotten over the similar (and much worse) treatment I received from others my own age. But that's the thing - as a sensitive, quiet, nerdy kid I copped a lot of it. And as a smart, emotional, and spiritual kid with a very strong ethical compass, I'm sure, if I had thought about it, I could have seen that I was perpetuating the same pain that others had caused me. So did I think about it or not? I don't know. But if I did, then I was intentionally hurting others, and if I didn't, I should have. So I can't escape the conclusion that I have a big chunk of bad karma following me around (note I don't believe in karma in the technical hindu/buddhist sense, but it is a useful metaphor).

At one level I find it OK to excuse it by saying that that's how kids treat each other much of the time. And it's true. But I really feel I knew better than that, and I find it hard to forgive myself. And it really causes me pain now to remember how much pain I caused others, for no real reason but... I don't know, to bolster my ego? or something?

Is there a logic that can be followed to relieve oneself of this remorse? Or is this an issue that must be worked with on the emotional level?

Thanks...

[Benzito]

I'm not sure how you deal with it Creach.

It's been eating me up inside for the past few years. I was never a real bully, but just too smart for my own good. That combined with ADHD, making me impulsive, I was prone to poking fun at others before I thought of the consequences.

After a few years of feeling bad about it, I'm starting to see that I really don't think it was malicious at the time. But, how can you know? If I am now, aware, that what I did hurt their feelings, then I must remember enough to know that? Does that mean I knew, at the time, aswell? If I can remember those looks of hurt on their faces, surely they held the same meaning then, as now?

Sorry, I probably haven't helped you at all, just given you more to feel bad about.

If someone knows how to forgive yourself for your youthful behaviour, please let me know aswell.

[indigo264nm]

Yeah let me know as well... .

...though I do have a theory that if you regard yourself as a completely different person then it may be easier to overcome. I have more of a fear of the karmic consequences from what I did as a young kid at the moment, and how my past actions will impact what's to come.

Also the fact you show remorse for your actions as a child makes you a step up from the majority of people, alot of which have a hard enough time showing remorse for recent actions. Recognising your better qualities may help to put your mind at ease a bit more, and a also having a conscious determination not to have those qualities you displayed in younger ignorance - basically accepting that you've grown up.

[SikkimRex]

This is probably not the right reponse, but I can say that from the other side, as a bullied kid (both at home, and at school - it happens that way), that kids do mean shit to each other. Childhood is the testing ground for all these emotions, but also ethics. Consequently, if you are upset about it now, then simply, your lesson has been learnt, regardless of how long it takes.

While at the time I literally wanted to kill my bullies (and indeed borrowed a pistol and took it to school to kill the bully, after appropriate humiliation of course - all fantasy - I just left school instead), 20 years later, if I heard any of those bullies expressing remorse as you are (and theirs was much more physical than yours), I would forgive them immediately.

Yeah, reflect on it for sure, but dont think you are the same person - you are not - real bullies don't feel remorse, they just keep fucking people over. Just be glad that you survived childhood without staying that way.

Laboratories also require failed experiements to confirm the truth!

[occidentalis]

Thanks for your responses guys

SikkimRex, as I said, I too was on the receiving end more than on the giving, usually from people who I considered to be 'friends'. So don't think I'm some kinda big bad bully ;).

Consequently, if you are upset about it now, then simply, your lesson has been learnt, regardless of how long it takes.

Yeah, I agree on one level. But it still feels like I actually have to get it out in some way and clear it from my body and mind.

[Rev]

Perhaps you can console yourself in the realisation that in returning to this you have come of age in a new way - lessons learnt on a deeper level effecting permanently changed behaviour

and the end is clear - completion of forgiveness of oneself for your past existence, realisation that tey no longer exist and acceptance and affirmation of the new YOU

so thats stage 1 and 3

2 you have to work through but keep positive cos you alredy know it must eventually result in stage 3

its just a matter of exactly how?

[Endrogen]

I look at it like we all develop intellectually, emotionally and spiritually at different rates and amounts. And that you function best when all are given equal priority.

And the remorse felt is just acting as a counterbalance. The more sensitive you are to the balance, the more you begin to work on your metaphysical aspects, than the supra-metaphysical aspects..........

Which is a whole lot better than ignoring the consequences of your actions and letting negative aspects permeate your being.

[Auxin]

So I can't escape the conclusion that I have a big chunk of bad karma following me around (note I don't believe in karma in the technical hindu/buddhist sense, but it is a useful metaphor).

Karma, in the technical buddhist sense, is cause and effect. Its how your actions effect the world and what lasting impressions they leave on your mind which shape your future actions. The whole past life karma thing is drastically over emphasised in much of western thought. Example- a soldier that was wounded in the vietnam war went to a renound buddhist master and asked what was the source of the bad karma that led to him being shot... he expected some mystical insight about bullying kids as a child or shooting someone in a past life. The monk told him he was shot as a result of joining the military. Cause and effect

Anyway... so we know that our actions have a lasting effect on our minds, and that we cant change the past. All the above posters who said you should forgive yourself were right, because you cant change the past and psychological violence toward yourself will also have a lasting effect on your mind- as will forgiveness but forgiveness has a positive effect

It looks like this, in a relatively harmless way, has shown you that causing harm to others leaves a lasting effect on yourself which causes harm both in the short and long term- thats a very good lesson to have learned Your present actions also have lasting effects, so focusing on guilt is a form of violence to yourself which will hurt you and, through shaping your thinking and actions, could even harm others. So forgiving yourself, and remembering the lessons learned, is the most compassionate thing you can do for yourself And others.

My $0.02 USD

[wandjina]

This is a tricky one. Often, for me, it is harder to forgive myself than to forgive others.

I agree with what has already been said...you cannot change the past. What's done is done, and it can't be taken back. And that's OK. That is life. Everybody has made, and will make, mistakes. We only have influence over what is to come.

Occassionally we may hurt other people. When we're young we may intentionally do this, when we're older hopefully we do this alot less, yet sometimes we may still hurt or offend (etc) others unintentionally.

I think this is unavoidable...minimisable, but otherwise an inherant part of being human.

Ultimately we have to forgive ourselves, of course,...but sometimes 'confessing', in every detail, our 'sins' to another person can be helpful. I find talking it out really helps me to let go. Or even writing a letter to the person(s) you feel you wronged...you don't have to send it, what is important 'get it out'. This really works for me, even when i start out thinking it won't.

Don't be too hard on yourself

quick edit:

re karma: IMO the only real judge is the self...judge yourself harshly and you may manifest 'bad karma'.

Every moment the universe gives you a fresh start.

Edited February 24, 2006 by wandjina

[Salviador]

So you feel guilty for mildy bullying this kid? After all these years it seems unlikely, Is it possible you feel dissapointed that you werent as nice now as when you were younger? That you couldn't have done thing differently? Think about how you feel when you think about bullying that kid, do you shudder in embarrassment?

Try to feel what its like to be looking at you as a kid what would you say that yourself. What would that kid say to you? Once you get an idea about how you feel about him, try to figure which core beliefs you now hold are affecting that judgement, ie im angry because i believe that i should have known better than that when i was young. hell maybe its much deeper than that.

If you get to this core belief that shapes your thoughts and actions; challenge it. Are there any situations in your life when this has not been the case? What influenced you to take on this belief. Most of the time these beliefs are conditioned into us as kids, maybe teens. But hell, this whole community is all about challenging core beliefs

It helps if youve got someone to bounce this stuff off, someone to empathise and be there with you.

Good Luck!

[Being]

Funny, as just the other night i had an unexpected pang of guilt rise up from something similar...

my year nine science teacher was a really gentle, soft-spoken, kinda repressed woman.. she was a down-to-earth nature loving person and always wore very practical plain clothes which reflected this.. one day there was some special teacher-student ceremony thing held at lunch and she was still all made up when we had afternoon classes.. she really did look lovely, when i came into the room i said kindof loudly "miss! you are looking fab.u.lous!" (clicking my finger on the fabulous part... ) i was fully genuine, but i think because of her self esteem issues she took this as being completely sarcastic, i could see instantly she became very self conscious and a bit humiliated.. my heart really hurt when i remembered it..

so what's got to me is that there was this raw moment of uncontrolled emotional expression, on both sides, this flicker of vulnerability, and none of it was acknowledged.. there was no "no.. really, you look great" or something.. she felt hurt, i freaked with the result of emotion and sat down.. anyway i've learnt from it but this blockage in my circuitry is no longer relevant and as everyone's said so clearly, there's absolutely nothing that can be done... if its no longer serving you, fully make a clear intention to release it from your circuitry...

i'm planning on focusing on all the aspects of this feeling, and integrating it in my system by dancing it out this weekend at a doof..! so by moving the energy this memory is taking up in my system, i will intentionally integrate and release the energy to be available to my whole being once again.. i've done this via dancing many times, and for me at least its a very complete liberation of the issue. It seems to change things instantly by bringing it into the physical and transforming it.. this could be done in many different ways... perhaps some kind of spontaneous ritual, absolutely any kind of act would work if your intention and focus is clear and directed, and you really are ready to let go of whatever you were getting out of the guilt loop.

[Torsten]

This concept became a big issue for me about 15 years ago. I was in my early 20's and at the height of my hallucinogen use. It all fell into place for me pretty quickly and easily.

I don't believe in any religious concept of guilt or balance, but really my view on things isn't that different from the concept of karma. To me the important thing is to always be the best person you can be. If you fail, then you have to try a bit harder next time. We all have our limits obviously, so there is no point expecting the impossible from yourself. Just the best you can. That's how I live my days, how I plan my future and how I evaluate my past. And most of all take responsibility for every single one of your actions and the cascade of consequences they cause!!

When you apply this concept to the past then the answer is simple. If there is something you can do about your nasty deeds then do it. For example, I have contacted ex gilfriends who i did wrong by, family members I had issues with, and ex classmates I might have hurt one way or the other. The interesting thing is that my memory and understanding of the situation was better than theirs in most cases which meant they had no idea what I was actually talking about . That happens too, but isn't a problem.

So yeah, there were a couple of kids at boarding school I gave hard time, and catching up with them 20 years later (yes, some took a while to find) was kinda weird, but also really good. One guy I contacted because I actually felt really guilty for not helping him out. I needed to know just how much the whole bullying at school had affected him and if there was some way I could help him if he needed it. Looks to me he is doing just fine, but the side effect was that he was really happy that someone had bothered to get in touch after all these years.

But don't misunderstand the purpose of these actions. It's not to make you feel better, but to take responsibility for your actions and their consequences!

probably the most issues were between my sister and me. I was a rat bag pain-in-the-ass younger brother and she was a real nasty and cruel much older sister. Powergames within my family had always obscured the real dynamics, so once these were removed it was eally good just sorting through all the crap with my sis. We both regret what we did to each other, but there is no point in guilt or in dwelling on one's suffering, so our resolution was simply to move on and do much better in future - which we have.

So really, the solution lies in what the issue is and who it was with, but most importantly how it was perceived by the other party. To illustrate that there can be a huge difference in the perpetrator's perception in comparison to the victim's perception, get this: When I was 10 I went on a vandalism spree. I had never done ANY vandalism before nor any after, but for some reason I decided it was going to be fun that day. My friend and I smashed up this little farmyard, smashing a glass tractor cabin, tearing down a shed, graffittiing walls, throwing feed everwhere .... you get the idea. We did many hundred dollars worth of damage, but we really had no concept of the value (we were both from well off, spoilt and protected households). Obviously we got busted. This was on a tiny Island of like 1000 people, so everyone knew everyone. My parents dragged me to the owner's place to apologise, which I was not impressed about but had no choice. When we got there I realised just how poor this family was and that we had basically destroyed their total livelihood in a matter of an hour of 'fun'. I don't even remember how long I was grounded for, but whatever it was, it was not enough. I felt so terrible. It was a turning point in my life and what could have turned me into the average destructive teenager had exactly the opposite effect and made me responsible and very aware of other people's property and their rights. I was still a rat bag and a trouble maker (probably ADHD), but I never again damaged, vandalised or stole from another individual - ever.

A couple of years ago I thought about these events and realised that my parents were so embarrassed about the whole thing that they paid the farmers handsomely just to keep the whole thing quiet. So they would have actually been better off due to my stupidity. This brings me back to the guilt thing and why the intention of looking back is so important. The fact that these farmers probably had a net gain out of all this does not change my wrong doing and my character flaw in any way. So even realising that I probably did not actually cause any loss to anyone (other than my parents) does not change how terrible I still feel about the event.

The point is that if you live consciously and always draw on your experiences, then you are bound to become a better person automatically. Using the experiences of what you inflicted on others to stop you from making the same or simmilar mistakes again is the best thing you can do to put value to the original act.

[occidentalis]

The point is that if you live consciously and always draw on your experiences, then you are bound to become a better person automatically. Using the experiences of what you inflicted on others to stop you from making the same or simmilar mistakes again is the best thing you can do to put value to the original act.

Yes

This is the conclusion that I have come to over the last few days.

I feel that coming through these moments of realisation about my emotional self brings a grounding of my daily experience and of who i am to myself - I often feel fairly disconnected from daily reality but these realisations bring me closer to real integration.

There is only really one case where I feel it would be useful to apologise to one of these people - most of these instances of abuse were simply so fleeting and thoughtless, but the one that I treated in a way I would actually describe as bullying was the bottom of the high school pecking order and suffered systematic abuse. I haven't seen or heard of him since I was 13 but if it becomes possible to find him I will let him know my feelings.

Thanks for your thoughts people, it's been an interesting discussion.

[Torsten]

There is only really one case where I feel it would be useful to apologise to one of these people - most of these instances of abuse were simply so fleeting and thoughtless

I was in the position where I was mostly bullied and rarely actually bullied others, so there is not a lot I have to feel guilty about at school.

When it comes to making contact I would have actually preferrred to do this secretly without their knowledge so that I can get the real picture, but that wasn't possible via the easiest method of making contact which is schoolfriends.com.au

I also got in touch with a few others that way. Even reading the 2 sentence summaries of people's current lives is kinda fun.

but the one that I treated in a way I would actually describe as bullying was the bottom of the high school pecking order and suffered systematic abuse. I haven't seen or heard of him since I was 13 but if it becomes possible to find him I will let him know my feelings.

I've said this before on these forums - I found that most of the kids that got picked on ended up being more successfull than those who were doing the bullying. The turning points seems to be in the mid to late 20's. Bullied kids tend to go further with their education or training and don't appear to be distracted by other things too much. The bullies mostly married young, had kids and responsibilities and were stuck in a rut by age 25 or 30. The bullied kids also seem much more robust and ready to deal with life's problems. Bullies on the other hand don't seem to deal with life's little hicups all that well. It makes me wonder if a certain amount of bullying isn't actually healthy?! Obviously systematic bullying could be extremely traumatic and can ruin a kid's future by seriously impacting on their social expectations etc.

I am interested in just how many folks here actually have arrived at this point which started this thread? Just how aware do us psychonauts become in general?

[woof woof woof]

did not read it all yet, but I think it is a good subject!

I think simple of it now! Would you forgive you for being that way when you were younger? If you can not immediately forgive yourself, then it means you have allot to think about still. All you can do is not to be like you were and doyour best to pay attention to what happens around you, so you can straighten things out in kids ( especially if they are your own) so that they can act smarter.

heh,... I was a bad bad bad bad kid. ( Very bad)

My folks had no control. I still very much have this rebelious thing in me.

Nowadays I am allot more toughtfull. That is all we can do really.

So no more hurting yourself with the past - only get a good understanding of it and use it to direct things in the right direction!

cheers mates!

[in_spirit]

I know this post is old but............Everybody has done things they realise later, they aren't proud of having done. That's life. In Korea Martial Arts are taught at school right through and into University [a little off track]. They have some stories re master and student. The master and student are talking as the master pours tea for the student. The student is Oh yeah I know this, I know that. The master pours the tea and keeps pouring till it over flows. The student screams at him the cup is full, the cup is full. The master replies yes and I can't teach you anything until you empty it. Let go of the past, of what you have learnt and done, so you can move on and learn new things. Empty your cup. WHat everyone else has said. You have already humbled yourself with the admission, now accept it as fact and move on.....>

[Hagakure]

thats a pretty famous story evil. the versio i heard was some foreiner was trying to understand japanese but always looking at it from european perspective. japanese dude offers tea - keeps filling cup. the foreiner is like "why are you filling that cup, cant you see its completely full?" the japanese man tells the foreiner that like the cup the foreiner must empty his mind of the old culture and learn afresh.