have you ever seen an elve?

[planthelper]

my friend has had quite a few experiences with aya and dmt but only one time he saw an elve.

elves seem to be very different to other meetings with spirit beeings, as there is a peculiar sence of realety associated with it, anyway this is what my friend told me.

he saw this allien gigantic machine, it somehow reminded him of a tank with wheels. the structure showed some wierd details which hardly can be compared with anything we have on our planet.

than suddenly a feeling of beeing watched overcame my friend. the thing that watched him, was of a mischivous nature, without beeing bad. i know it sounds funny to say that a person can feel some spirit beeings character and intent, but that's excactly how it was. that elve was perving on my friend and it's (the elves) cloaking device failed, because the observer BELIEVED there was something. first, only the eyes of the beeing where noticed, but than once the "i accept there is something" message was realized by the brain, the whole face appeared for a brief moment. it was a face sharing some characters with the one of a hunt's man spider!! you know how how aya patterns look like, diamond, oriantal carpet patterns, everything beveled and so on, and imagen the face had the same features.

anyway apart from sencing that this elves natur was mischivious, there was a very strong sence of "it" beeing, very well natured, innocent and truthfull, likes to tease without hurting, and beeing the cutes thing! somehow the observer seems to associate everything he see's on tryptamines with things which left a imprint in his mind in real life. in other words, the beautyfull blue flame shooting out of the concentric porthole, which is surrounded by rings of pulsating vapor light, has do to with the real blue flame turbo engine racing car of campell(not sure if it was campell and the spell). but than maybe it's the other wat round, the centre of the jet engine on his car (an aerodynamicly shaped cone thinggy) represents one of the few things on this planet similar in appereance like the things in elves world!!

and the big machine, only reminded me a bit of the footage of this famous ww1 tank with side canons.

anyway elves, you are cute and if you are real and the inhabitants of an other planet or maybe even of our beloved earth than i have got to say only one thing, "insectoid elves you rock" and obviously your technology is ahead from our humanoids one.

[folias]

i have got to say only one thing, "insectoid elves you rock" and obviously your technology is ahead from our humanoids one.

:saufen2:

Elves is just a term Terrence used...without even really meaning elves in the traditional folklorish sense of what elves look like and do... so its a bit of a bum steer actually... HE ACTUALLY SAYS THEY ARE NOT REALLY ELVES IF YOU LISTEN CLOSELY TO MANY OF HIS TALKS!

Anyone who thinks that the DMT space is only characterised by elves and funny little aliens clearly hasn't smoked enough/taken enough... its not really about that...at all...for something like 97% of people! its a cultural illusion for the misinformed...or those who just haven't smoked enough.

check it out, in Daniel Pinchbecks book, he describes how one Mr Mark Pesce says that he has never been "through the dome" smoking DMT (and he started a DMT church called "The Church of the Mother Fuckers apparently!) and in the U.S. they smoke a lot of synthetic DMT apparently...

If you don't go through "the dome" its all just STUFF....lesser lights and such...

and then there is all this...

The James Kent essay..."The Case Against DMT elves"

http://www.tripzine.com/listing.php?id=dmt_pickover

and commentary

http://www.bruceeisner.com/new_culture/200...ase_agains.html

http://www.futurehi.net/archives/000217.html

Maybe I'll deconstruct James Kent article one day if I can be bothered ... a lot of it is over literal Nth American semantic untangling...

Julian.

[planthelper]

somehow this kent guy makes me feel he never experienced an extreem dosage of aya...

his art work is crappy, instead of trying to represent the real dmt realm, he just uses various stickers and symbols.

bruce's artwork represents a much better attempt...

but still all those shapes are not right.

i believe that those geometrical infinite figures are in fact impossible to draw.

beeing under the influence of dmt gives us the abilety to see things we cannot reproduce in the real world.

but sure the thing that all those hallucinations are manifastations of our own thoughts and memories is just the point i tried to make...

i offer a theory, saying that hallucinations are part of the sytem of how we store and understand language, writting, music and visuals. every word for example has its own things (a brain soup something) associated within our brains which in term produce and relate to our concious brain what it is or means. but we never see how our brains store the information which makes us understand words and understand that a tree is a tree!!

dreams are some kind of defragmenting those data banks.

our brains allways transform old data over to new storage place's.

basicly my theory is that, we are those alliens and a bit of this pattern and this color and vibration, gets related to us as the word food, i hope you understand me a bit.

one time my friend just "came on" after consuming a very high dose of aya...

he looked (which was already a bit tricky) at his chainsaw and the word homelite morphed into husqarna. the spelling is was not important. the observer thought he had a husqarna, or proly would have liked to posess rather a husqarna than a homelite and for this reasons the letters changed. this backs up my theory of how all our understanding and perceeving is caused by hallucination like phenomens working without a break constantly inside our brains without us ever seeing them or realizing them. the observer knew he had only a homelite still, he could only read husqarna.

the brain is an artist, if it has to learn a new word or sees something new, it get's in a millisecond it's "brainsoup paintbrushes out and creates a new image which will stand for this new thing.

bloody hard to explain what i mean, but at least i tried.

[AndyAmine.]

^_^

[strangebrew]

Mine wasn't a machine elve, more of a 'natural gnome'.

I've always been a hard head when it comes to open-eyed visuals but on this occassion when I was side-tracked by one of those horny, psilly moments, a delightful pair of breasts had materialized in a swirl of red/green colours that had appeared on the ceiling and I wasn't complaining ,

but then I too became aware of being looked at and of my feelings/thoughts being known. I looked slightly to the left and there in another colourful red and green patch was a mischievious old gnome grinning at me - a bit of a 'dirty old gnome' if you get my drift.

He had on the tunic , the cap, the leather belt... the works!

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...c=3126&hl=gnome

[Rev]

i had my one and only experience with 'elves' recently

it was funny cos i went back to the same place i was in the fisrt time

I saw creatures superficially like a trilobite but more millipede like

phosphene imagery yet true hallucinations at the same time

like being in 2 dimensions at once the other is transposed n this one highlighted in a a phosphorescent glow

these creatures i watched.

theye wrerherbivorous and i saw them muching rasping away at the vegetation

stripping the plants of this other world bare much as snails do here

but theye were aware of me and conscious

at least as conscious as a cow is. standing there chewing its cud and watching you

in that respect they looked kind of domesticated

then the elves appeared

small creatures, actually id say pixies is better term than eleves

they are non humanoid yet we see them that way because thats how we choose to

they showed me their world.

lush cool and moist but the vegetation was low and open. definitely cool rainforest like in climate but also brighter. maybe some kind of open cloudforest mixed with a meadow and bamboo like stoloniferous grasses

the spectra of electromagnetic radiation was very different in this place yet still visible. kind of fluorescent oir as i said before phosphorescent

none of the plants were familair excpet in that they conform to physical laws that maybe dictate all photosynthetic organisms

they showed me how they lived

low longhouses like those in SE asia but not fully enclosed

they had raised floors high open sides and a grass thatch roof

the environmnet there was mild and i suspect they need only minor shelter

it all seemed very primitive yet i had a sense that when you become an interdimensional being

you rediscover the wonders of living with nature vs shielding yourself away from it

they move off and into a forest clearing where i see a long structure quite large like a boat being built

it is boat like in shape but all i can see is the bow

the geometry is sharp, sharper than a vessel in water is

teh surface is shimmering, like some kind of metal but not

i have no sense of what ist made of and whether its consttes matter at all or just a material from a certain configuration of matter or chaos

the trip is starting to fade

the final parting moments after they show me their craft they are building are the words that translate inside my head as ' we are coming to visit soon'

in this sense i felt they meant her as in our dimension and earth

i wasnt freaked during the experience as it was all so real as to be matter of fact

i was concerened tho by both the laine entity and its motives and also by their 'cows'

those thing were voracious

i purposefully stopped short of inviting them as somehow i felt that would not be good if thse things ate us out of house and home

likewise i didnt know if the elves meant us well

history is full of pleasant greating followed by great misunderstanding and conflict

i kept wondering - do we really want you to visit? and do you know what we really are? ( at least atm were still bloodthirsty apes)

more questions than answeres but alt least now il never doubt the elvin experience even if i dont understand its true reality

Edited January 23, 2006 by Rev

[narayan]

I think some of spiraleyes artwork has a certain resemblence to what some here have seen before ;)

[Rev]

for me more like this but 'digitised'

the houses had angular roofs

yeah in ways like this

but also like this roof

but no walls and in longhouse style

actually very much inside like this. this is a house of the Bali aga, an indigenous hiltribe of Bali.

their livestock had an uncanny similarity to trilobites

http://www.trilobite.com/

so how detailed were other peoples elf expreineces?

Edited January 23, 2006 by Rev

[Cyjack]

Personally, I was in almost constant contact with the elves (or at least my own interpretation of them) for a while a few years ago. They were several in number, and quite by accident (or so I assume) I found a way to communicate with them. From these epxeriences, I realised that they knew alot more than I was aware of, and we occaisionally went through 'tests' to see whether or not they informaiton they were passing on was valid. I always figured that these were the mythological lepricorns that lived at the end of a rainbow, and stored pots full of gold (me thinking that the metaphore for gold was used to describe the information)

Othewise, isnt Irish folklore full of elves, fairies and the like? Wasnt Terence Irish?

[mescalito]

Personally I've never met what you would call elves but the architecture was certainly shaped like an elve's head/mushroom cap/hut as depicted by Rev above if not more Hindu like for me anyway which may just be an inherent trait in my dreamscape...who knows??

My first real interactive contact consisted of around 5hrs of intense conversation with a deity known as Ganesh superimposed directly around my then partner and sitter,certainly tested her sitting abilities that's for sure!!

(and showed the truth behind her motives too considering the message...hindsight's always 20/20 )

Like this:

but then again...

...even looks a little like a trilobyte hey??

The next time I actually encountered beings I was shown a slide show like flash-cards..three of them..one after another and looped.

First the Tiki:

then an alien skull..

then to my surprise...

I was struck instantly with the similarities between this iconography and upon opening my eyes saw a swarm of 1m long mantis crawling all over the roof watching me yet felt totally at home at the same time.

In the search for pics to relate what I saw I coincidentally came across this little report: http://www.ufobc.ca/Beyond/prayingmantis2.htm

the truth is out there....

[folias]

There are so many strange and wonderful beings out there... not to brag, but I would have met over a thousand over 7 years or so... AND, I have never met an elf! Never met a mantis being! Only ever met one angel! Many of them are like amorphous shape changing beings who can shape themselves into living works of art... I've met a couple of people who communicate with beings who don't take anything and actually make a living out of communicating with them! (and that does not mean that every communication God drops some cash into her paypal account )

And I'd know a few people in the same category who have seen as many if not more beings (not that counting is that important)... I met Luis Eduardo Luna (http://www.wasiwaska.org/) in helsinki last year and he said he was interested in coming to Australia and doing some talks if the openings were there, and one of the things he said he was interested in talking about was entity contact...with a twinkle in his eye... we questioned him further and to him it was phenomena which occured with ayahuasca, especially high dose ayahusaca... and it seemed to me that over many years he had taken for granted that the information being presented in that state was not erroneous, that what was being seen, was in fact, what was there to be seen!

So, WE may know that (at least a lot of us)... but the vast majority of peole living in the west do not believe that... harcore ayahuasca people know this, but often seem a bit shy in really standing up and saying it is thus! whereas non-western people are much more inclined to believe in and see "spirits" and such.

Julian.

[wandjina]

Othewise, isnt Irish folklore full of elves, fairies and the like? Wasnt Terence Irish?

it sure is, as is all celtic folklore. I don't know if McKenna was of Irish descent, but he certainly had a deep interest in celtic fairylore, and even wrote an introduction to recent editions of W Y Evans Wentz's famous book, 'The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries'...

I'm not at home, and can't quote directly from it, but I remember he refers to the book as one of his favourites (why else write the introduction).

From my reading of McKenna, he seemed to have beleived that elves weren't elves in the conventional sense, yes, of course, but its not that clear cut. As we are well aware, the line between real and not-real is fuzzy here...

McKenna also seemed to have thought that fairy lore in general was describing something real. That fairies were a socio-culturally contingent manifestation of 'the other', 'it'...of a part of ourselves/the universe etc that is percevived as 'other'...however, IMO, the glib dismissal of fairies/elves as allegory is overly simplistic. Further, we should not assume people are refferring to disneyfied cutesy things when they say they've seen an 'elf'.

With regards to said 'elves'...I've seen/experienced alot of 'entities'...few of them elf-like in the traditional sense.

To my knowledge, encounters with disembodied beings, spirits or 'archetypes' is a universal human experience with psychedelics, whatever 'they' may 'really' be (especially in regards to their seeming autonomous existence in other dimensions).

I'm familiar with Kent's essay, but if i remember correctly, even he refers to notions of autonomous disembodied beings as 'savoury'...which would indicate to me that, personally, he doesn't discount it absolutely. I think it arrogant to disregard such things absolutely.

As Aristotle famously said, 'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it', or rejecting it IMO.

If separation is an illusion, and hence our day to day reality is not 'real' (maya), then psychedelic experiences including separation may be catergorised as the 'lesser light' etc etc...OK, fine, we can look at it that way. But should these experiences be discounted and deemed 'a cultural illusion for the misinformed'...

McKenna often talked of an 'ecology of souls', of beings....I had the pleasure of listening to him speak when he came to Oz in 1997 (or was it the year before...little hazy there), and it seemed to me he valued experiences that involved encounters with the other, with the 'alien'...does it really matter what words are used to describe it, to descibe what often seems for all intents and purposes to be a 'them/it'?

I've never seen a typical alien or elf, but I may use these words in an attempt to describe what i did experience. I may 'go' to a place that defies description, but I can approximate it by calling it a landscape.

IMO, experiences of what may be termed the 'greater light' defy description, and it is not possible to explain or re-experience in our normal consciousness. There's no point trying to talk about it IMO.

As the readers of this will well know, so-called 'lesser light' experiences (sometimes including bizarre beings and landscapes etc) also defy accurate description...but at least discussion is possible to a degree.

In his book 'LSD psychotherapy', Stanislav Grof talks alot about archetypes, catalogues peoples descriptions of what they experience from a transpersonal/psychodynamic perspective. These 'things' may 'come' from the unconsciousness, but it does not mean they are not real, or valuable, or simply mere illusions.

They are human experience, part of dynamic and complex processes of self-realisation.

Who is anyone to demean another persons experience as mere 'stuff', even if it is.

It may be 'stuff' necessary on the path to 'beyond stuff'...it may be absolutely crucial to their spiritual/psychological etc development to experience certain things in a certain way, whether that involves

eings performing bizarre energetic 'procedures', laughing 'self transforming machine elves', insectoid beings, little green men or blue hexagon 'godesses'.

I think we should respect eachothers perpsectives and opinions, although i find it hard to respect a stance that overtly belittles some one elses experience.

edit:

missed your last post Julian...just read it, and the above was a reaction to the first, especially what i felt was a rather harsh response to Planthelper. But now I'm confused...

Anyone who thinks that the DMT space is only characterised by elves and funny little aliens clearly hasn't smoked enough/taken enough... its not really about that...at all...for something like 97% of people! its a cultural illusion for the misinformed...or those who just haven't smoked enough.

There are so many strange and wonderful beings out there... not to brag, but I would have met over a thousand over 7 years or so... AND, I have never met an elf! Never met a mantis being! Only ever met one angel! Many of them are like amorphous shape changing beings who can shape themselves into living works of art...

where is the line between cultural illusion and the real Mcoy? What defines 'stuff' from authentic 'contact'/experience? Are what people perceive as 'elves'/'mantids' etc 'less genuine' than other 'varieties' of beings? Perhaps i have misunderstood your first post, which seems to indicate that anything encountered outside 'the dome' is bogus.

Edited January 24, 2006 by wandjina

[folias]

Planthelper knows I'm not being harsh...just being inspired by his post!

I'm only saying that elves are overrated and over stated because of misinterpetations of Terrances words... there are phenomena of being could be conceived of as lesser...little critters and beings that really are just raving away... nothing wrong with seeing them, BUT, you have to smoke a lot more to really get beyond the "so called" dome to experience the inconceivable... where there are no words, there are no cultural images, there are references of any kind and so on.... and THAT is so alien, and yet know, it isn't part of a cultural mythos and can't be explained... so anyone who has been there, can write James Kent off without raising a pen, because its clear he hasn't really broken through, there are many possible levels and variables to this experience, it is not just one standardised "thing that happens or similarities that happen" to each person.

That is a mental interpretation... reductionism can be defined as the breaking things down and reducing them down to their simplest components, when these components in DMT are "supposed" to be elves and little dinky fairies and aliens is very glib, and if you base all your evidence of what are actually assumptions and not any real form of hard data... there is a man who has done work categorising entity experience on ayahuasca and most entites people experience are just not like this! And I can say that most people who smoke DMT, do not see anything like an elf...maybe they could call it "machine elves"...but even that is a stretch for many!

So when someone comes forward and says, "I seen an elf!"

"I'm like, no shit, because that is people think you're supposed to see but actually people rarely do!"

where is the line between cultural illusion and the real Mcoy? What defines 'stuff' from authentic 'contact'/experience? Are what people perceive as 'elves'/'mantids' etc 'less genuine' than other 'varieties' of beings? Perhaps i have misunderstood your first post, which seems to indicate that anything encountered outside 'the dome' is bogus.

Well, if you are not "dying of astonisment" you are not really beyond the repoirtoire of these various beings...beyond that realm, there are other realms and levels that more "non dual", more unified... there are books, there are religions with a fundamental premise that involves describing and understand these levels... one that people may be familar with is the tibetan bardos, another that comes to mind is in the religion known as "shabd yoga"

Are what people perceive as 'elves'/'mantids' etc 'less genuine' than other 'varieties' of beings?

no, they are just beings within the repoitoire of beings that people can meet... and I have only heard of a few people talk of actually meeting an elf on DMT! (one of them I called "elfman" because he looked like an elf!) and I've heard A LOT of people talk about a lot of other beings... what James Kent is pure baulderdash..."The archetypal DMT "entities" are pretty well categorized, with most people seeing elves or aliens or fairies or angels or some kind of loopy little spirits that dance about and tell riddles"

That's just not the case... maybe if you are a loopy American person who tokes a little bit of synthetic DMT...I've seen this kind of thing and it would account for less than 5% of the entity encounters I am aware of, of people who have smoked DMT and/or take ayahuasca... ayahuasca is where the more prolonged entitiy encounters happen anyway. I have seen loopy little spirits with ayahuasca too... I like them, but they can actually be kind of boring after a while....

Julian.

[wandjina]

hmmm, ok, now I understand what you meant, thankyou for clarifying that Julian.

Regarding the bardos...I was under the impression that the focus, in Tibetan Buddhism, was less on the 'exploration', and more on the passing through. If I remember correctly, one bardo is traditionally described as full of 'lights and sounds' (McKenna refers to this as possibly representing 'where' DMT can take you) , and the individual is councelled to not be distracted by this (bardo thodol??), and to keep on truckin'.

On a tangent, i recently read that when LSD researchers in the 50s and 60s gave psychedelics to some Buddhist monks, they really freaked out, and the session had to be 'terminated' with chlorpromazine! Ditto for taoists, and apparently old-school Freudian psychoanalysts had an especially difficult time.

lastly, and I think this was mentioned above...what of people who communicate with aya/dmt entities in normal consciousness? I would like to hear more about this.

[Cyjack]

As we are well aware, the line between real and not-real is fuzzy here...

As it has always been perhaps. Who can raise their hand to claim discovery of a finite seperation?

...however, IMO, the glib dismissal of fairies/elves as allegory is overly simplistic. Further, we should not assume people are refferring to disneyfied cutesy things when they say they've seen an 'elf'.

There has always been a strange need for ambiguity in the description of these things I think, and the better one can master the tool of language, the more exquisite one can make the murals on which these objects are presented to others. At least half of what Terence presents, at least to me, is a feast of linguistic possibilities, and I suspect that many of the people that went to hear him speak, were mesmorised by the way he weaved his particular magic. In some of the lectures he actually gets to this point - that what the people are receiving, are words.

The elves I found were not so much presented as little green or blue creatures with or without wings, they came to me from a place so close to my own being that to deny them, was almost to deny myself. This is where it becomes a useless act to point them out to someone else, as it might be them doing the pointing... Interesting thread..

[planthelper]

some dmt inspired scribbles.

[Being]

The only time i've ever experienced anything so defined as the traditional image of an 'elf' was once on Ayahuasca. I thought i was about to throw up, so i leaned over and the floor disapears, all i can see is this line of about five elves - full outfits and hats the works, but all in 2D and everything that made up the scenery including them is intensely bright pinks purples greens and yellows - dancing around in a circle over and over, and they are singing what sounded like an icaro if it were performed by the teletubbies.. They pull me into the circle and for about ten minutes i'm dancing with them, but i don't feel my body... then i 'awaken back to this reality' and i find my body is actually dancing around in a circle in the middle of the kitchen!

[Being]

As it has always been perhaps. Who can raise their hand to claim discovery of a finite seperation?

There has always been a strange need for ambiguity in the description of these things I think, and the better one can master the tool of language, the more exquisite one can make the murals on which these objects are presented to others. At least half of what Terence presents, at least to me, is a feast of linguistic possibilities

This is exactly how i see this issue with Terence and the 'Elves'. One of the things that made him such an inspiring and complex speaker was that he presented words with such a multidimensional permission for interpretation, because he was himself so understanding of the differences in individual's internal dictionaries, and on the multidimensionality of 'reality' and 'language'. I don't think he ever stated that these were literally Elves.. but that based on the associations of his life and his internal dictionary, the language he connected to these creatures was Elf.

I remember he had many reasons for referring to these DMT entities as 'elves' one being that they were both creatures of language, riddle, and rhyme.

It seems to me he observed there were recurring 'themes' of information in the matrix and that some 'themes' were patterns being expressed in different manifestations of consciousness, but as essentially the same 'identity'.. hence the 'DMT Machien Elves' are an expression of the same essential vibration or energy, or 'personality' that people were interpreting as the traditional 'mythical' elf...

[Being]

lastly, and I think this was mentioned above...what of people who communicate with aya/dmt entities in normal consciousness? I would like to hear more about this.

Well... i think there are definitely certain beings that only appear via DMT states, but i don't think they are necessarily of DMT.. lately i've been wondering if how we experience these entities is actually how they are experienced in their 'own environments' and 'to themselves'.. if perhaps the state itself is, well not a distortion, but certainly affecting how we experience them.. but then again perhaps for a human being there is only a finite amount of 'consciousness pathways' that allow us to experience them?

but really.. i think there are simply Beings full stop, and they're allways around because there's no necessary time-space illusion involved in their existence, its only a matter of our abilities, substance influenced or otherwise, to experience and communicate with them.

Having said that, as a child i communicated and experienced many non physical entities and this only stopped when the new cultural programming was installed! Psychedelics having broken through a degree of these veils has allowed me to become aware of them once again..

Pretty much every day i experience a variety of entities, and i feel there is a constant subconscious communication going on with them and every other being in my environment (and globally, though that's more general stuff!), my feelings are that every human being and otherwise is engaged in this dialogue..

The most common entities i experience are faeries! When the lights are all out i can see them clearly to varying degrees. They are morphing constantly in energetic form but occasionally hold a form which is surprisingly very similar if not at times identical to the traditional description of a faery..

The most clearly i've seen them is once i felt a tingling sensation on my right shoulder and peered down to find this male feary standing on my shoulder with a jack hammer, hammering into my shoulder.. it went on for about five minutes then he dissapeared.

So i experience these things as concretely as i experience everything else in the matrix, and have on multiple occasions shared experience of them with other people, so am fully convinced of their existence in whatever realm.

[The Dude]

Very interesting discussion. Here's a quick question, are these entities creations of our own minds or indeed something outside of our mind. Obviously it will be impossible to prove/disprove, but what are people's beliefs?

I cannot really comment as i've never experienced outside entities. I've seen a transforming machine though (minus the elf part). Just another one of those 'how the fuck does my mind come up with that?' moments. Ah I could try to describe this but... y'know what, I gotta get down to animating this thing then I'll show you, I'll show you all!

[hebrew]

here is a report from a friend of mine...

I was ambushed by these little pixie elf type entities. These little guys were very mischievous, cheeky, funny and good natured. There were about 10-15 of them they were sneaking about me doing things to my soul or something like that they never said anything they just did what they needed to do in a cheeky manner. They were all good natured and possibly were there to prepare me for the night? They stayed for about 15 minutes I spose and they left as quickly as they came. I don’t know where they came from but I felt they came form behind a veil that was slowly becoming transparent. I felt like I was in the story Gulliver’s travels, where the giant is asleep on the beach and the little people explored the sleeping giant.

[Rev]

So when someone comes forward and says, "I seen an elf!"

"I'm like, no shit, because that is people think you're supposed to see but actually people rarely do!"

my take on it and on the mythological cosimilarities in the psychedelic experince and that of religion is currently that al the notions and creatures we know from mythology are all imperfect realisations of the real and common origin in the other reality

Elf is such an imperfect representation of what it was but with the lack of a better metaphor i resort to ist use realisng how far short it aflls and the lillihood of miscommunication as people attach their preconcived notuion sof what and elf is to it. truth is these things cannot be described using our language. its like being in a 2 dimensional world and trying to describe something in 3 dimensions

its the fiorst time i saw such things but not the fisrt visit to that level- ive seen the trilobite critters on several occassions , and giant spiderlike creatures too. and what interestes me is that when i go that place im getting a sense of its ecology as a place in the universe like our own in ways but also different.

what i think is interesting is that on all levels of existence ist seems there is the same flow of energy in ecology

that is even in states of eergy and matter or non amtter the rules of thermodynamics still apply and ecologies here and there are covergent to a fundamnetal degree

i really think ive seen so much - tho less often than some here - that i cant doubt theres so much more going on in reality, but i am nothing more than an explorere who sees and reports and realises how inaccurate much of this is when conveyed. Think of the first aztec to see a spanish horse, or a PNG highlander a missionary aeroplane. So often we have to overcome our how preconceptions in order to see, and we musnt underestimate how hard it is to see in its true form what your not expecting to see.

but everytime we look without prejudging maybe we allow the trth to filter through a little

[Cyjack]

Very interesting discussion. Here's a quick question, are these entities creations of our own minds or indeed something outside of our mind. Obviously it will be impossible to prove/disprove, but what are people's beliefs?

Isnt everything a creation of the mind? What is the heirarchy of the flowing information?

I recall many many moons ago when the world was young, I accepted a small piece of thick paper into my being and waited for something to happen. Soon enough, I began to feel my mind shrinking, but because I was totally aware of what was happening, it was a very clear experience. As my mind shrank, I could feel it moving inside my being, and I could also *see* it from the outside with my earth eyes. As my mind got smaller, the world became bigger, and its compact dimensions (mind) made it possible to travel to places it normally could not... seemingly inside my body. When things returned to normal, my conclusion of the experience was that I had gone 'molecular'. End of short story.

Conclusions? - What if these beings are parts of the human system that normally cannot be reached/communicated clearly with because of some incompatibility? What if these things are not so much creations of the mind, as representations of what it is perceiving? (based on the idea that to perceive something, it must have form/shape/texture/essense etc).

Otherwise, I suspect that certain hallucinogens help to extend the spectrum of visible vibration, thus enabling what might appear as extra sensory perception. I have had another experience that points to this.

Ah I could try to describe this but... y'know what, I gotta get down to animating this thing then I'll show you, I'll show you all!

I would like to see that!

[gerbil]

Think of the first aztec to see a spanish horse, or a PNG highlander a missionary aeroplane.

I enjoyed the bit in One River when the Auca (Waorani) described the helicopter (or was it a plane) that flew over their village as a large wooden bee, something like that.

Never seen elves. Have seen praying mantis like entities I suppose would be the best way to put it. She lives within the Pandorea jasminoides vine and never fails to show herself.

Also robot like creatures, kind of had the structure of pokie machines with arms, intricate animate patterns covering their external body who where busy rushing about inside an enormous pyramid which was radiating similar patterns and textures. They showed no interest in my presence and were far too busy to stop and communicate one on one, then things flew up towards the apex, whizzing past the colours of the inside skin on the pyramid and that was the last to be seen of them.

I find microorganisms much more frequently encountered. I threw out a huge can of freshly opened soup one day after seeing what was living in it, or what I thought was in it, walking around was a big mistake as the confusion sets in constantly IME.

[Rev]

Lifes too short to eat tinned soup... anyway