'Shamanic' experience

[ballzac]

I Know that shamans of old would probably laugh at neo-shamanism and the shamanic experiences of non-shamans....

I had an experience in which I died and was not reborn, but instead, undeaded! This experience took me to the very darkest recesses of my mind and forced me to face issues that have been purcolating below the surface (mainly relating to the sexual abuse my girlfriend suffered when she was a child)

I was very careful in the title to put inverted commas around the first word, because I don't want to be throwing that word around like it has no meaning, and I am not exactly an expert on shamanic theory.

This is the culmination, and conclusion, of my dxm research.

I'm speechless

[ballzac]

Woah, I must've been tripping balls!

Much as I think I've been doing too much of this shit lately, I think it has been the cause of great changes in my life. I'm looking forward to a good year next year.

[Cyjack]

I think for me, 'psychedelics' or perhaps better said, 'diffferent ways of changing ones mind state from the normal processing states to other slightly more usefull states', appear as opportunities for the user to adapt to new and sometimes indescribable perspectives.

I know that a recent LSA experience for me taught me the importance of intention and attention, and yet I know that for someone else, the experience would have been very different. We all react in different ways because we are all made up differerntly, even though some of us share common cultural methods of interaction and communication. This is where my distrust of accepted psychology stems me thinks.

What I am trying to say is that there is no harm in free expression, especially when it is given as honestly and clearly as it was. I would go further and say that honest free expression, no matter how it might be taken by others, is an important step in understanding ones self..... and I can think of no other more important adventure in which to participate..

[The Dude]

...honest free expression, no matter how it might be taken by others, is an important step in understanding ones self..... and I can think of no other more important adventure in which to participate..

Well said, I agree totally. It's all about the liberation when creating a totally honest free expression.

[botanika]

Well said, I agree totally. It's all about the liberation when creating a totally honest free expression.

therefor u shouldnt be afraid to express urself as a shaman. i dont think theres anything wrong with saying u have a shamanic experience at all or the need for inverted coma's. Its not like calling urself a chartered accountant, which requires professional exams for a specific reason of qa and law.

[mescalito]

"I think therefore I am"

Think you are a "nutcase on drugs" and you are.

Think you are a "Neo-Shaman" and others think you're a nutcase on drugs

Actually my psychiatrist had no problems with my interests and life pusuits re:entheogens, in fact he read my Plant's of the Gods and Psychedelics Encyclopedia (thoroughly enjoyed them too I might add) and had the opinion that these substances taken with knowledge were a better option than taking SSRI's with NO knowledge of their mechanisms of action.Though he prefers the meditative approach and "tie-cutting" teks for pure happiness release from the past and self understanding above all.

[mr toodly]

When I heard the word "shamanic", I reach for my gun.

[Thelema]

probably what DXM allowed you to experience was a fresh look at the most recent things that had encumbered your ego structure. Living with someone who has experienced child sex-abuse and lives with it as a problem NOW is playing a very demanding role for yourself. I know, I have been there.

What DXM is telling you as well is that YOU are being defined by this problem. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but deeper exploration might yield you to be a warrior that might bring something to you both, and that's something worth looking for.

[ballzac]

i dont think theres anything wrong with saying u have a shamanic experience at all or the need for inverted coma's. Its not like calling urself a chartered accountant, which requires professional exams for a specific reason of qa and law.

I think my reason for this was more that I don't know enough about shamanism to make this claim. I don't want to inadvertantly say something that I am not meaning to say. To use an extreme example, someone might get a tatoo of a swastika because they like the design, not realising what it signifies in post wwII society.

"I think therefore I am"

Think you are a "nutcase on drugs" and you are.

Think you are a "Neo-Shaman" and others think you're a nutcase on drugs

I'm not sure I know exactly what I think. But I believe that these states of mind are far more than just a simulation of mental illness. I believe there is some fundamental truth that is inherent in them. Maybe it is just the realisation that reality is not set in stone.

I know, I have been there.

I have actually been there before too. The only difference this time is that my current girlfriend wishes to overcome it and take responsibility for the way she feels NOW. My ex on the other hand would take the role of the victim in every situation in life and would also force other people to suffer to make her feel better about her own suffering. Eventually I had to decide in that relationship that I could't keep telling myself it wasn't her fault for the way she is, because it was destroying me. Most abusers have been abused themselves and it is never an excuse.

I am glad this topic sparked some interest. I actually thought I might never get ONE reply!

[ballzac]

Also, I personally shun the concept of a 'bad trip'. This was a hellish experience for me, and I have had hellish experiences on lsd too, but they served a purpose for me at the time which could not be served by anything else. As long as the experience does not trigger a mental illnes, or disturb you enough that you choose to end your own life, I think all trips, both confronting/difficult experiences, and pleasant experiences, are good trips. It is often the diffucult experiences that we learn the most from.

[Rev]

going in deep and dark is where you get the 'power'

like when you excercise your muscles and they get stronger there is an ability to manage alternate states of reality that gets stronger each time you have and deal with constructively a bad trip

A fellowjourneyman whose name i do not know but in whom i have absolute trust

was talking to me while we both were in the LSD zone during the zenith of a doof

both of us were in another world, parralel to this but another realm

some call it purgatory, others the train station, its a demonic layer directly adjacent to the human layer so some are able to coexist in it under some curcumstances. Mythlogy is FULL of refernces to it. I cant describe it because it seems as a fundamental law of its separation that it cannot be described directly to anyone that doesnt already know of its existence. Only by hird person stories hav ethe knowing tried to convey to the unknowing

think fairy realms, think Mt olympus, think persephones journey to the underworld,think alice through the looking glass, think rip van winkel,think dante

its a place where the demonic and the human meet . where humans such as the shamans frolic and battle with each other and the non-human entities. Above this and not in direct contact with the huamn layer is the angelic layer. one must pass through the demonic to reach the angelic. These places are eternal and exist outside time. Think 'restaurant at the end of the universe' concept by douglas adams

we talked about and realised we were powerless to change it or escape it until time had plotted its course

but we unlike persphone knew we shouldnt get too involved or we may remain there forever

the trick as my journeyman pointed out is to be like a valve, let it pass through but dont read it.

thats just one lesson but through time its little lesson like this that give us the power of navigation an dthe power to direct ourselves without being merely at the mercy of the waves of energy that circulate violently out there. if you open up to it without releasing the pressure youll get tossed like a rag doll and may do yourself an injury.

as i said its a condition of separation that i am incapable of telling somone who doesnt already know what i know. So if you dont then you dont and if you do then youll know i never had to say anything in the first place because you already know all of this

Edited December 24, 2005 by Rev

[mescalito]

Ballzac I've partnered 4 women who were sexually and or physically abused as children and like Thel agree on how it influences your own life, though I've been told I have a Robin Hood or St' George syndrome anyway so I think I must naturally seek these people out (and why are they both brands of kitchen appliances??)

One thing that I know will help you(and your partner) is a book by Phyllis Crystal called "Cutting the ties that bind".Personally I've had very impressive results cutting old inappropriate "ties" to events and people.I'ts kind of like 'psyche' surgery so do a google and get some more info if you're interested, it's worth a look or pm me I can knock up a DIY tie-cut self-hypnosis tek CD and send you one.

 

as i said its a condition of separation that i am incapable of telling somone who doesnt already know what i know. So if you dont then you dont and if you do then youll know i never had to say anything in the first place because you already know all of this

Nicely put

"what is understood need not be discussed" was my sig. here a few years back.

Similarly, explaning depression to someone who has never even had one bout is just as fruitless...after all they are "altered" states of mind and individually selective in their personal impact.

Strength comes from hanging in though whether a 'bad' day or a 'bad' trip and Shamans like humans aren't born they are formed by pressure and learning via neccessity and in turn adaptation.

I think the term Shaman is a means to an end and not an end in itself...more like a constant apprenticeship and you get your qualifications when you no longer have a use for them.Remember humans are the only type of entity that consciously measure time and psychedelics remove the importance of time

You give what you have and graciously take what is available to you at any given moment with healing being the focus and when you heal yourself you heal others and in turn heal yourself therefore you can be a shaman as a shaman can be a jaguar as a jaguar can be you.

edit:someone's ingested more than 3 substances today haven't they?

Merry bloody Xmas!

[woof woof woof]

that is what 'shamanic' training is all about. Plunge in the mental abbys and get back on top! Make sure you have enough energy to climb out, otherwise it is going to take you a long, longer or the longest time to come back on top!!!!

What you learn on those journeys is specific to the individual or the other people involved.

Travelling to the depths of power. Interesting place. Indeed, like REV said. Do not grab hold of that power unless you know whet you want to do with it. It will cause lots of trouble if you do not know how to deal with it. And the only way to KNOW how to deal with is tohave a GOAL. Not even having a goal will guarantee you get out of it without scratches. BE prepared to die He he he eh is all I can say! I got out with scars & I am marked for life. I am also not rid off all that nasty energy yet. It takes allot of self control and dicipline to control the kind of power you can reach with your mind.

Going to inner depths is only good for healing! (I say inner depths, but also mean seeing it reflected or manifested in the outer world).

So jump in with an aim, get the clarity on the situation and just tell the person with the problem what he or she needs to do in order to resolve it. (can be yourself too if you have any issues that need addressing).

Well now,... if you want to Devil work,... whahahhaha,....... sing your soul over to that power! Then when you notice it becomes a drag, try to get rid of it and see if you can! You have been warned!

[AndyAmine.]

I used to think about this subject a fair bit and often thought that if I wanted it to be really effective I should use a traditional shaman to help me when I decide to do an Iboga/Aya treatment (for addiction and of course where legal) but after talking at length to a few diferent people something Torsten said really stuck with me.

"Rattles and feathers to a shaman and whistles and glow sticks to me"

Who is to say our experinaces are not as profound or worthwhile as those of a trditional amazonian shaman/shaman in training or that a person/teacher/guide here in Australia is not as in touch/experinaced or as much a shaman as those in S.America or Africa .

Also, I think that traditional Shamans would have used synthetic chemicals and modern tools of exploration if they had been available to them in previous times and would accepted them as powerful sacremnets jst like other substances at thier disposal.

[woof woof woof]

Well, If I ask me now,..... ""loud music, chem light sticks & plastic whistles Or Shamans natural work tools in a quiet, peacefull & serene enviroment?????"" that is where the difference is for me!!!!

Heh,... another example is when, I was in the US as a little kid with my folks. My mum gaveme 2 quaters to buy a coke,..... as I walked up to the soda dispenser, i heard a man call me, "Hey kid, what do you prefer, The Man or the Machine!" so then I noticed that he was also selling canned sodas.

Heh, maybe he was just smart business man and used the soda machine as a way to pull in the people attracted by the machine. But still,... that Human touch i think is important. Impersonal machines.

But yean,... when there is noting else, go with what is available to achieve your goal!

he he he, but seriously,.... he he,... I never undersood teh light stick thing, besides it looking cool. In europe in the underground scene lightsticks never took off. In the USA it was a hYpe of course.

dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype dont believe the hype

[AndyAmine.]

I have never been a big fan of glowsticks, (they got really popular after I slowed/stopped partying) or those plstic whistelss although I have been getting into sounds like humming and mouth whistling as a form of exploration more and more lately. except for that damn "Oooi, ooi" you here people shouting between beats at dance partys.

To me, the quote is more a way of thinking about it Brian, not totaly literal.

[Rev]

Shamans natural work tools in a quiet, peacefull & serene enviroment???

LOL

the forest quiet - yeah right ;) Forests are noisy places and the wetter more tropical they get the noisier they get. animals can see each other in a closed dark forest so they make lots of noise all day and especially all night

peaceful?

i dont know about that. Most tribal groups went through cycles of raid and revenge

All adult men in siberia or PNG or the amazon got about armed with at least a knife - to ward off other humans or wild animals

serene?

if you dont mind the flies, the mosquitos, leeches , midges, sweat bees, posionois centipedes, chiggers and all the others in the oppressive humid heat then sure - i could see the rainforest as serene

One thing abot civilised life that is really nice is the creature comforts

we take for granted the luxury of being fed, clothed, warm, dry, parasite free and relatively secure from violation.

in order to have this we give up our freedom and become slaves - our selves, our land and our labour owned by a ruling class. Perhaps the bigest question in human existence after our origin and destination is whether this arrangment can ever be made to work properly or will corruption always lead to abuse

Edited December 26, 2005 by Rev

[ballzac]

As far as glow sticks go, I actually think if you are tripping mainly for fun on a substance like LSD (as opposed to looking for a spiritual experience), they can be kinda fun. And the visuals are often very obvious with the high contrast at night (I can see trails coming off them when I'm straight!). I have juggling balls that have high intensity LEDs in them, and they can look amazing. I also have a contact juggling ball that reacts to UV light with an intense purple glow. But hey, contact juggling always looks best with a plain crystal ball. The one thing I don't understand is why glowsticks have caught on with the extacy culture seeing as MDMA is not really visual. I prefer sitting around a barbie with close friends and just chatting most of the time on E, just as I do when I'm straight. Come to think of it, that's probably what I'd prefer when I'm on psychedelics. Although something trippy that glows can be cool on psychedelics in any setting, be it a glowstick, a bike light, a cigarette, or a blank sheet of paper. But yeah, I don't think many people use glowsticks as a tool on the path to enlightenment

-Zac

[botanika]

going in deep and dark is where you get the 'power'

... parralel to this but another realm

some call it purgatory, others the train station, its a demonic layer directly adjacent to the human layer so some are able to coexist in it under some curcumstances. Mythlogy is FULL of refernces to it. I cant describe it because it seems as a fundamental law of its separation that it cannot be described directly to anyone that doesnt already know of its existence. Only by hird person stories hav ethe knowing tried to convey to the unknowing

think fairy realms, think Mt olympus, think persephones journey to the underworld,think alice through the looking glass, think rip van winkel,think dante

its a place where the demonic and the human meet . where humans such as the shamans frolic and battle with each other and the non-human entities. Above this and not in direct contact with the huamn layer is the angelic layer. one must pass through the demonic to reach the angelic. These places are eternal and exist outside time. Think 'restaurant at the end of the universe' concept by douglas adams

If its put that way I think I walk hand in hand with the devil and the angel. Beautiful symetry, delicous ambiguity.

What if it was all just rationally irrational quantum physics?...angels/devils - particles/quarks...is it really 'seperate from human' layers of realms? Could it be handed down stories and images that form a collective consciousness over history that we individually respomd to? Is it real or like a photo enhanced with photoshop filters?? A manipulated effect. Humans are an imaginitive lot. We love imagery and stories. The three major things that seperate us from every other animal are art, language and technology. Think about how far that imagination has taken us towards a 'heaven' like world and a 'hellish' world. think about how much those genetic traits have built visual and emotional worlds that are represented in the diversity of world cultures. Are they really seperate? Is it all processes of the brain and our artful, languaged technofied life?

I think its all in our mind. Are pyschedelics flesh of the gods or an incredibly complex interaction of complex chemical compounds with an incredibly complex brain of which we really dont know that much about either?

'Experience' is product of nature itself and therefor experience should be allowed to diversify. People should be free to experience whatever they want religously, artfully, socially, however they want so long as it is in harmony with the underlying structure of the universe that works and builds upon itself. To live a beautiful fullfilling life, in harmony with others and yourself - your own soul. Diverse but together. That would be nice. Its the sheer beautiful diversity most of us love about nature, its that diversity of races, cultures, digital watches and experience that make humans so interesting. If there is evil in what humans do - that darkside, whether we picked it up from the male dominated chimps on the north side of the congo or a common ape ancestor or we developed it ourselves - then perhaps wars are part of who we are too and they're an acceptable part of the universe's creative process. Suns die, white dwarves form, humans are born, humans kill, sun shines on a lazy sunday, katrina kills hundreds of thousands. Is it our destiny to destroy ouselves? Do we celebrate that or do we reject it and strive for peace and love? Subjectivity is such an awkward thing...

IMHO There is no good and evil. Just action and outcomes which are then subjectively intepretted as 'good or evil' by humans (or other living things if possible). The problem is those subjective decisions for masses of people are usually made by a handful of leaders who quite commonly seem to lack an understanding of our artful, language filled, technology reliant lives - perhaps because it simply takes so much economic and leadership study to make it to the top or because it takes a level of power and corruption...

[Rev]

If your philosophy separates the mind of man from the rest of the universe that envelopes us then we can discard our visions as imaginations. But i dont think that at the deepest levels we are separate at all, we are all inseparable as fields of energy within this 1 universe and the brain may well work on the quantum level with consciousness being a tuning in to the fundamental levels of reality. and so it poses the question of our visions actually being representations of reality. Not the second hand depiction or description but the actual mind boggling experience. I leave ample room for the idea that the universe may well be stranger than we yet think and that those who espouse a universe free of conciousness with only stars or those who espouse

the anthropocentric personalised god have both got it wrong, and will continue to do so as long as they think the universe can be described rather than only experienced

one thing i have noticed about the imaginal realm is that the dogma of the religions in the the baseline world are just funnyyet tragic imitations. quantum theory is another dogma too. they are all partial glimpses of the whole. reality is what it looks like if you can fathom if they all fit together like a transdimensional puzzle

you see 'demonic' and 'angelic' arent anything to do with good or evil, and they arent in aggressive opposition. There is no evil out there, there are only exchanges of power between immortal entities. Evil is a human invention something of our very own. Animals arent evil and neither are non human beings. Evil intent and action is such a petty thing. Im not saying you cant get hurt - but like when an animal hurts another its not evil - its just circumstance, as when we accidentally tread on an ant. So i think evil exists but it is strictly a human capability. I dont think you can be evil if you have no ego...

its all about complementary opposites and the struggle that occurs ALWAYS ends in peace and harmony. It must as there is no other way. The struggle is not a fight its is a DANCE. Shivas dance

See the point in this IS the Dance not the win/lose outcome as its always an amicable settlement. A dance is a fight where nobody wins but everyone has fun. Its about move and countermove displaying mastery of POWER but in the end the resoluton is amiable. Shamans participate in the dance in order to see and learn things that those without the power cannot, they do this in the trance state so that at the same event some people can be in one realm and the others can just be at a festival - be it electronica or a nepali/haitian/tarahumara etc etc festival. I am certainly am an initiate to this, i see it hapenning yet i am no adept. I got hurt last time i wandered into the melee - because i couldnt manage the flow. maybe in time ill get stronger and more in tune.

shivas dance is temporal, it moves to a beat of time with a beginning and an end, but it loops, so that each time you are back there it is the SAME infinite time, and the same time that all shamans have ever travelled to, existing outside our chronological framework. The begginning and end of the universe crammed into one night, running and looping alongside our slower version of time over the Eons.

its so impossible to fully explain but its always a matter of a smile, and shake your head as it all makes perfect sense when you brush past the truth. The truth illuminates all the wrong assumptions about the nature of the reason for existence and its architecture.

there are so many energies and so many types of entities that inhabit those layers and teh reason for the difference bewteen the layers is so that each can have its habitat. An illuminant creature belongs in a world of mirror and crystal, while a werewolf needs the forest edge. Also on that edge live quite a few people and like most edge habitats its a rich place with plenty of niches to fill.

I think i know nothing yet i think i have seen it all in one quicksilver crystaline moment, seen but never captured. More tidbits of folklore spring to mind - trying to capture the imaginal realm is like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, its there alright but youll never posess it until you change the way you think about reality and the nature of posession. I have ceased to brush over these persistent sayings and fairy tales as merely cultural artefacts. I think i get some of them now, in their simplicity, they span the ages with their wisdom hidden in full view. Analagous to the imaginal realm it is always right there under our noses if only we are able to see.

That it all passes through me by is the only reason i think i stay (relatively) sane. I love the journeys to the imaginal realm yet i dont lose myself in it. I live a dual life.

because of this im not so hard on myself explaining the rationality of my or others visions because the laws of logic that govern this world dont apply there and vice versa and to be presumptious in matter you have no EXPERIENCE in is the path of a fool. I just relate what i see and muse on the stories of others. The best i can say to defend it is to say that i hope one day you see it too and when you do there will be no mistaking its authenticity as all those pices you thought werent related just fall into line in the most elegant and enchanting array

Edited December 28, 2005 by Rev

[botanika]

I've had the glimpse - molecules to supernovas in a flash. Interconnected energy and time. Life death and the ego. Been overwhelmed, underwhelmed and humbled like everyone else here. Weaving science and spiritual mysticism together, for me, fashions an elegent but bohemian garment to wear in life. Its comfortable - part of myself lets go into deep imagination as far as I can and another part adds in suitable doses of rational level headedness. That's the delicous ambiguity I like. Balance. Pessimistically optimistic? haha well it puts a smile on my face at least

Yeah we dont use words like 'dance' or 'ritual' enough these days. Ive read some interesting things on language and how we have lost certain words from our vocabulary that are quite descriptive and ultimately meaningful. Words like 'Jacinth' which is a type of orange colour. Sure you could describe many other types of colour with common words used now but there's something poetic and powerful about 'jacinth'.

These days dance is taken over with 'work' and ritual replaced with 'process', Craft taken over by 'product'. Our leaders verbose on and on about economic policies, I hardly ever hear leaders inspire people with stories - they dont seem to ever express the narrative of our lives. Narrative has been replaced with policy. I think its imperitive we allow for shamanic and mystical experiences in society. 'Life is a canvas, art is filling it in'. Its what creates the colours in our rainbow. And while there may not be a pot of gold at the end, there IS a little green frog! Kermit singing the rainbow connection! 'someday we'll find it the rainbow connection - the lovers the dreamers and me' LOL

Rev - Have you ever noticed about wise old people, whether they are from some remote tribe or an old retired CEO or even your grandpa. They often, especially when confronted with a deep and meaningful question, answer with a joke, something funny, something downright absurd that everyone can understand. I can imagine if you ever met god or a higher intelligence or even an alien it could be the same. There's something cheeky about the universe. A bit like hitch hikers guide super computer deep thought revealing the greatest answer '42' to life the universe and everything. Quantumn physics is a very cheeky joke.

We're fighting wars and burning forests trying to solve a riddle we should be kicking back laughing and dancing at.