A Step Backwards

[Plant Pimp]

This is certainly a step in the wrong direction!

If you're planning to ever go to the netherlands to bask in their 'culture', you'd better get a move on!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/04/26/dutch...reut/index.html

It's kind of ironic that last summer when Toronto(Canada) was trying to recover economically from the SARS outbreak, people were encouraging cannabis tourism. At the time there was a loophole in the medical MJ laws and the courts were refusing to convict anyone of cannabis crimes(in Ontario). The loophole has since been straigtened out and prosecutions have resumed though.

I've noticed that even in the countries which have liberal attitudes toward cannabis, it is still technically illegal, just condoned. Is this because of the 'anti-drug' treaties that everyone signed on to in the UN 30 or more years ago? What does it take to back out of UN treaties? Can only the United States do this?(ie. not respecting a nations international boundries and toppling their government) Perhaps the fact that these treaties were signed based on propaganda and misinformation could be grounds to pull out?

During one of the 'decriminalization' debates in parliament here not long ago, the Justice Minister said that we can not go fully legal and regulated because of these 'international conventions' that we signed many years ago. The penalties can be reduced, but there still has to be a deterrant to use.

Does anyone else feel that we're headed for a cultural 'Dark Ages'? (a stagnant society incapable of 'real' debate and change)

P.S. Sorry for the link to CNN, they're not my most trusted news source.

[ 28. April 2004, 02:46: Message edited by: Plant Pimp ]

[nabraxas]

yep its the international law conventions, back out ov those & you loose big time.

unfortunately, Amsterdam in particular is a small medieval city whose builders never anticipated it would be the last bastion ov freedom in an insane world.

it just can not--& should not-- be expected to be the only european destination for a druggy weekend, especially as the number ov drug users grows exponentially.

[gomaos]

I think that probably a lot of the lobbying AGAINST cannabis would come from alcohol entrepreneurs, i.e. those whose livelihood depends of the sale of alcohol...

if cannabis was legal, they'd loose a lot of business..

[mescalito]

...and I would remember exactly what I did last night

[gomaos]

Does anyone else feel that we're headed for a cultural 'Dark Ages'? (a stagnant society incapable of 'real' debate and change)

The dark ages began when the US government smashed the "Hippie Movement" in the 60s and early 70s.

This movement was truely evolutionary but those bastard politicians smashed it the same way those dictators did for example in Tiananmen-Square...

as long as we have a majority of people who vote for right-wing/military governments (such as that of G.W.Bush) the dark ages will not only continue, but get darker...

@mescalito:

Exactly!

The highly toxic nervepoison alcohol is legal to aquire, while the harmless herb cannabis is still illegal and at times hard to get...

Hence people grab the bottle instead of a joint and contribute to make the dark darker...

[nabraxas]

swiped from Oz-Stoners

PLANS to tighten up the Netherlands’ famously liberal attitude towards cannabis have met with strong resistance by local authorities across the country.

The ruling conservative coalition drafted the new tougher drugs policy in the face of evidence showing a sharp increase in the potency of marijuana openly sold in many towns.

The prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende’s cabinet proposed to reduce the number of "coffee shops" where marijuana is sold and to ban sales of cannabis to foreign tourists in border areas.

For nearly 30 years, small quantities of marijuana and hashish have been sold at coffee shops.

Though the practice is tolerated, cannabis remains a controlled substance and technically its sale and use is illegal.

But the policy has been met with opposition by the Association of Netherlands Municipalities which said the move threatens to undermine years of successful drugs control.

Lex Estveld, a policy adviser, said the government was trying to fix a system that was not broken. "The entire Dutch drugs policy of controlling and containing soft drugs has proven reasonably successful in recent decades. If you ask me, we haven’t done bad when you compare us to other countries," he said yesterday.

In its policy statement to parliament, the cabinet called for research into the health risks of higher potency cannabis amid concerns over a sharp increase in the content of THC, the active chemical of the cannabis plant.

If tests indicate the more powerful cannabis is psychologically damaging, it could be reclassified as a banned drug like cocaine and heroin, the cabinet statement said.

The cabinet acknowledged the long-standing policy of toleration had not led to higher rates of marijuana use. But it said "the strong increase in THC content, and the link between cannabis users and psychological disorders, is a reason for concern".

The average percentage of THC in Dutch marijuana called Nederwiet, the most popular on the market, has doubled in three years to 18 per cent, said the Netherlands Institute of Mental Health and Addiction. The most potent hashish now has a THC content of up to 66 per cent, it said.

Under the government plan, the southern town Maastricht, bordering Germany and Belgium, will conduct a trial of the policy barring the sale of marijuana and hashish to tourists. It was not clear whether customers would have to produce proof of Dutch nationality.

A joint statement issued by 483 municipalities said the proposed measures would force the marijuana business underground.

"The tone of the letter is too influenced by foreign [opinions] and gives insufficient credit to the successes of local coffee shop policies," said the statement. "Concentrating the trade in soft drugs at coffee shops has the clear benefit of making it transparent and controllable."

Roughly 780 coffee shops exist in the Netherlands, but half are in the three big cities of Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague. About 80 per cent of municipalities do not permit coffee shops. Government figures say the number of people who have tried marijuana in the Netherlands ranks in the middle of a range of EU countries, the United States and Australia.

By Anthony Deutsch

Source: Scotsman.com News

[Plant Pimp]

Glad to see that they're not taking this lying down! Keep up the fight for 'freedom' and 'democracy'!

If the material is being smoked, shouldn't the health department be happy that there is an increased % of THC? Smoking 'anything' is unhealthy, but this could reduce the ammount needed to be smoked for desired effect, therefore reducing health risk! Unless of course THC is carcinogenic or harmful? I do agree that there should be unbiased clinical trials for everything.

[The Dude]

agreed, i think much more research for cannabis is definitely needed, i for one really want to know if there is any real risk of causing schizofrenia (not only triggering it in ppl prone to have the disorder) or other permanent psychological damage. Of course i want to know that about any drug i'd be taking but very little research has been done on illegal drugs mostly because uh they're illegal, whereas a LOT more ppl drink alcohol and therefore they research that. I'm hoping that due to its quasi-legal status in holland this will also be the case for my favourite plant.

And i cannot believe how many times higher potency is argued to be a DANGEROUS thing, when clearly it is much safer than smoking huge amounts of, say very low potency, carcinogenic leaf (i think leaf is carcinogenic?). OBVIOUSLY a higher % requires less smoke for the desired result (as Plant Pimp has said), people aren't going to be getting any more stoned than they would usually anyway.

less smoke, less danger, less bud smoked and less money spent! All good things!!

It amazes me how ignorant many people are for using that argument!

[nabraxas]

ok. i don't mean to upset anyone---i love ganja, but just for the sake ov debate.

let's imagine that THC DOES directly trigger schiz/bi-polar/mental illness etc.

--an increase in THC %age should lead to more people hospitalised.

no-one reduces the actual amount they smoke per hit, just the amount they smoke over time---because a normal size hit gets them twice as stoned , it's twice as long before they feel they need another.

for someone managing an illness, used to toking low strength leaf & tip or crap hash, to switch to high potentcy skunk, while on a weekend in Adam---could prove disasterous.---& i bet if you looked at admissions to dutch city hospitals you'd find plenty ov tourists freaked out to fuck on the space cakes.

[t st tantra]

nabraxas:

no-one reduces the actual amount they smoke per hit, just the amount they smoke over time---because a normal size hit gets them twice as stoned , it's twice as long before they feel they need another.

sorry i just dont agree with this comment ,in fact i believe the opposite is true.esp when shiva is such an expensive commodity.

t s t .

[gerbil]

nabraxas:

for someone managing an illness, used to toking low strength leaf & tip or crap hash, to switch to high potentcy skunk, while on a weekend in Adam---could prove disasterous.---& i bet if you looked at admissions to dutch city hospitals you'd find plenty ov tourists freaked out to fuck on the space cakes.

I think people just need to take some responsibility for themselves. If you've got a serious mental illness that you are aware of, going on a good quality substance binge really isn't the smartest of things, is it?

And with tourists freaked out on space cakes...if they don't know what they are capable of taking, why do it? A relative (and i'm sure it happens heaps of tourists too) was in a'dam, had never touched cannabis in her life, yet munched on about 3 hash cookies because the first ones didn't have any effect, whilst their group passed a joint.

That group of tourists did learn their lesson eventually lol

[Torsten]

i bet if you looked at admissions to dutch city hospitals you'd find plenty ov tourists freaked out to fuck on the space cakes.

Hmmm, as one person who experienced this culture shock first hand, I can say that 'they don't give a rats ass'. The only reason why people get admitted to hospital here all the time is cos their friends or the cops freak out and take drastic action. I remember one time I lost my friends on the way to the cafe bathroom , ended up out on the street looking for them, fell over, rolled on the floor for a while (so the other patrons told me afterwards), walked towards one of the canals, which is when the cops grabbed me gently and put me back up against the housewalls. I could barely make out their uniforms i was so fucked, but I do remember that they were just chuckling and asked me if I was alone or had friends. I muttered something about having friends in a cafe (the cafe was only 5 meters away, but I couldn't see it), so they asked the staff and were guided to my mates. My friends had passed out on the table. No one seemed to care much and just took it with a bit of humour. Even when I vomitted all over the cops shoes he was still being friendly and understanding. I was eventually reunited with my friends and we dozed off the weed and then got drunk at the same place.

It was clear to me that this was not an unusual incendent for either the coffee shop staff nor for the police. At no point did anyone seem worried or freaking to the point of wanting to call an ambulance (well, except me ). They were genuinely concerned about me falling into the canal as they really hate having to rescue tourists from them.

Amsterdamers know that their economy is thriving because of the pot tourism. They know that a bit of vomit on a shoe is a small price to pay to keep the stoned poms and tripping germans happily pouring their money into the city.

On another note, amsterdam is the only place where I felt safe walking up to a cop, tripping balls, asking for directions to a nightclub cos I was too spun to work out which way the trams were going. It is also the only place I have ever been to where the cops are treated as if they are friendly members of the community. They walk through raves or nightclubs and people are genuinely friendly to them because they have nothing to fear. Out on the street most of the time cops are chatting to someone... people just stop to have a yarn. Somehow it felt so right and made so much sense.

Anyway, my point was that the hospital ER would not have many space cakes admitted cos everyone in amsterdam knows that that just makes things worse. They only intervene if they think you might hurt yourself or someone else. In terms of hurting yourself a lot of responsibility falls to the coffee shop owners and the community as a whole. Everyone helps out.

[chief23]

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nabraxas:

 

for someone managing an illness, used to toking low strength leaf & tip or crap hash, to switch to high potentcy skunk, while on a weekend in Adam---could prove disasterous.---& i bet if you looked at admissions to dutch city hospitals you'd find plenty ov tourists freaked out to fuck on the space cakes.

 

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Torsten:

 

On another note, amsterdam is the only place where I felt safe walking up to a cop, tripping balls, asking for directions to a nightclub cos I was too spun to work out which way the trams were going. It is also the only place I have ever been to where the cops are treated as if they are friendly members of the community. They walk through raves or nightclubs and people are genuinely friendly to them because they have nothing to fear. Out on the street most of the time cops are chatting to someone... people just stop to have a yarn. Somehow it felt so right and made so much sense.

 

---

I have mentioned this before on cannabis web sites. Could the paranoria that people experience be related to the fact that the drug is illegal, and the general community don't except it (like they do tobacco), and the fear of being busted by the coppers?

Maybe it is like people who enjoy having sex in public, it adds an extra thrill with the fear of being caught, or doing something that is not excepted (illegal).

I think this is part of the problem, sure there are people that cannabis will have a different effect on, just like people who become violent after drinking alcohol.

As for the higher THC levels, I think the prohabitionists are trying to find any excuse they can to stop cannabis from becomming legalised. God knows they have done this sort of thing before.

Chief

[Torsten]

Originally posted by chief23:

Could the paranoria that people experience be related to the fact that the drug is illegal

yes, for me this is definitely the case. In holland I never got paranoid from weed (or any other drug for that matter). There are other things to worry about in amsterdam, but this also means different (and much more specific) fears for the experience eg mugging, pick pockets.

[The Dude]

I'm going, thats all there is to it, im fuckin going

seems Amsterdam is the place to be then, only off putting thing would be maybe the whole dutch speaking factor. I hear it's a kind of weird landguage??.

I once heard that swizerland is going to legalise cannabis. I'd hang out in the italian province and go snowboarding everyday, either way this countries stupid drug laws have got me wanting to relocate, but i doubt i'd ever leave my dear australia, i love this country and apart from busting the balls, cops are often fair chill even if they bust ya. (not always, some are real bastards).

Hey wasn't there once a pot smokers party? I'd sure as hell vote for them (if they give their preferences to labour, cuz i sure as fuck want Howard out).

hmm i've digressed a bit.. my bad.

[theobromos]

Spain might be improving with the new government, and almost as many people speak English here as in the Netherlands.

[The Dude]

theobromos, even better then! :D I'd love to learn spanish anyway! Already know a bit of italian and it's pretty similair right?

Hey on a side note, you hear of the spanish band Ska-P? I really like ther stuff - not that i understand it. I know one song is about cannabis legalisation :D

[Ashoka]

 

quote:

---

There are other things to worry about in amsterdam, but this also means different (and much more specific) fears for the experience eg

mugging

, pick pockets.

 

---

I can definetely agree that one should be a bit wary of muggings. On my interrail trip in 98' I got mugged by two guys with curly locks. One of them politely pressed a hard obejct into my ribs while chanting "give me all yer money, nigga". An interesting experience, especially when considering that I have, what one would call, the "scandinavian look."

If two guys on a bike asks you "Do you know what tiiime it iiis?" retreat to nearest coffee shop immediately.

I guess I really should be thankful, they gave me a hell of an adrenaline rush and a story as well.

Have a nice trip,

Ash

[Torsten]

el duderino - everyone in amsterdam speaks english

[nabraxas]

think Portugal has legalised all drugs.

in both spain & portugal it's possible to get the best "royal morroccan"-one ov thee niceset hashes, at a fraction ov the amsterdam prices.

in fact i believe the opposite is true.esp when shiva is such an expensive commodity. --interesting idea, but i've never seen anyone pack smaller cones or put less in a joint just 'cus they paid abit extra for it(& anyway on holiday in A'dam who's really worrying about that?) :D