Vasopressin

[Trip Dr]

Hey all, i heard of this stuff mentioned by T. So this is mainly a question for him, but anyone else who has experience with it is encouraged to respond.

I am interested mainly because like T, i too feel 'foggy' for sometime after smoking weed. Now i know many people will argue black and blue that it doesnt. Im just saying for me, as i only smoke once a week, i can notice it.

I read a few things about it, and it seems to have some really good effects for short term memory boosting. Thing is there were some side effects that were a bit worrying. It basically said dont drink water, or you risk diluting your blood salts too much and having convulsions, fluid on the brain. Not to mention things like increased risk of heart problems and stroke. But if it really 'lifts the fog' as it is supposed to then mabey careful use could be beneficial.

Any comments would be appreciated.

[Benzito]

I smoke MJ daily.

I didn't always, obviously.

About 7-8 years ago, I never let myself smoke more than once a fortnight, because I could feel my mind become slower for that following week or so after a 'session'.

I would mix up names and words, etc.

Eventually, a few years later, I got hooked on the stuff after 2 years of abstinence.

I'm not complaining, I love it!

But even as a promoter of MJ, and someone who does not plan to ever stop smoking, I will agree with you Trip Dr.

Weed makes you dumber.

No if's or but's.

(I can already hear(edit:spelling corrected) the arguments, cringe)

[ 02. September 2005, 01:22: Message edited by: Benzito ]

[ergoamide]

 

quote:

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(I can already here the arguments, cringe)

 

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Hehehehehehehe benzito used the wrong here, he should have used'hear' not here.

I guess there should eb know arguements he just proved it himself lol

[faustus]

yeah apparently smoking bud will deplete vasopressin, which is important for memory formation. haven't tried it but it is definitely touted as a nootropic, though you should watch out for the blood pressure. dilution of blood salts = hyponatremia? the same problem can happen when you're on MDMA, but don't you just drink gatorade for that?

[apothecary]

No arguments here, mainly because I don't think I know enough on the subject to argue one way or the other.

I'd love to see a reference for the affect of cannabis on vasopressin though. Got link?

[apothecary]

Just doing some research on the subject (looking for the ref) came up with this gem:

 

quote:

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"I have smoked pot on a more or less (usually more) daily basis for 20 years. When I read that vasopressin is inhibited by pot, I found a source for buying some. Now I notice that when I use vasopressin with marijuana I still get stoned, but I have little or none of the 'dummying down' effect of the pot. And what a surprise to find that vasopressin intensifies orgasms!"

 

Vasopressin, called "the memory hormone," is a natural brain peptide, stimulated by acetylcholine and released in the pituitary.

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The last bit is especially interesting, because it means you can stimulate vasopressin release using cholinergics (natural ones? :D ) without worrying about side effects of using actual vasopressin.

The natural cholinergic I'm beginning to focus my interests on is Borago officinalis.

EDIT: More:

 

quote:

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Unlike stimulants, alcohol and marijuana do not deplete but actually suppress the release of vasopressin, which could account for the loss of memory many have noticed when drunk or stoned, or when trying to remember events that occurred while they were high.

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[ 01. September 2005, 13:28: Message edited by: apothecary ]

[Chemical Shaman]

When i was seven years old I used to piss my bed all the time. Sometimes I would dream I was having sex with my mum and pissing inside her and then I would wake up pissing all over myself.

The doctor prescribed Vasopressin.

By the time I was 8 I was reading big fuckoff novels in my spare time, by the time i was 9 there wasn't a single word that i couldn't spell (ok there might have been one or two but i could spell better than all my teachers). When I did math problems and shit i would get every single question right, often the teacher would get one or two wrong themselves and I would have to point out how they fucked up.

I thought I was basically just a smart kid, but after hearing about vasopressin from Torsten years and years later it makes sense that it was the bed wetting drugs that probably helped me along.

I've just started heavy pot smoking again after a long abstinence (I quit after EGA) and I can already feel myself getting stupid. I was just talking to a friend on the phone about 20mins ago and I said something like "Yeah last night Tony came over and we watched a movie." He sez "Cool what movie" and i had to fucken sit there and think for like 4 minutes which movie it was that I watched the night before. I couldn't remember. Fuck that shits me.

Where do I get some more vasopressin from?

Also what's a good dose of Pircetam to be taking every day? The tablets i've got are 800mg.

-Chemical Shaman

[Torsten]

I really don't know if vasopressin depletes or suppresses vasopressin, but I do know that it has a marked effect on brain fog - especially the cannabis type.

The side effects seems to be either individual or exaggerated as I don't know anyone who has used vasopressin and had any such problems.

Vasopressin (ie brand name miniprin?? can't remember) is avaialbe from the usual smarts dealers like QHI and biogenesis.

I wouldn't bother using vasopressin if you intend to keep smoking. Kinda a waste of money and may also not be healthy. But to knock out the brainfog after years of smoking or to recover from the occasional weekend it seems ideal.

[Cyjack]

Hey Trip -

I first heard about V about 7 years ago when nootropics were doing the rounds. A friend and I were buying up Pirecetam in big amounts (my friend was experimenting with that), and we also ordered a nasal spray of V. We had heard it aided in recall, so I was the volunteer for an experiment.

I tried to think of a part of my life that was foggy - and decided that it was my primary school days. I couldnt remember too much about it, the people, the place etc. After taking two shots of V (one up each nostril), I could *see* every part of my old school, walk through its halls, remember where I had once waited outside the principals office etc. It took seconds, and the memories are still clear in my mind today.

Long term? - Who knows........

As a side note, my friend who experimented with Pirecetam noted that he was thinking very very clearly on it. He woke everyday without fog, was sharp as a tack and generally felt more alert. The fad didnt last with us though, and we gave the whole thing up. I think he was taking 800g daily, and it took about a month to really kick in. Either way - good luck!! :cool:

[occidentalis]

Cyjack:

I think he was taking 800g daily

You mean 800 mg right?

[Jack]

I am taking 1600mg piracetam 2-3 times per day.

[Trip Dr]

Hey Cyjack where did you get your Vasopressin from? So this piracetam, what do ppl reckon of it?

As im only smoking once a week or less i would like to be able to have a clear head after the weekend. I smoke very little now compaired to a couple years ago. Maybe a couple cones a week rather than 1/2oz. So i can really detect the 'fog' after smoking.

Any probs with ordering from os?

[Jack]

www.qhi.co.uk have Desmopressin which is a synthetic analogue of vasopressin they also carry hydergine and piracetam, although if ordering piracetam you are better ordering it from

www.bulknutrition.com

[Cyjack]

creach:

 

creach:

I think he was taking 800g daily

You mean 800 mg right? LOL! - You are most certainly right! Sorry bout that..

[Cyjack]

Trip Dr:

Hey Cyjack where did you get your Vasopressin from?  So this piracetam, what do ppl reckon of it?  

Any probs with ordering from os?

It was from a company in the UK. Cant recall the exact name.. strange Chemical name - they had a wide variety of things we could order - with the disclaimer that we were ordering with the full consent of a GP here in AUS....

We did notice that when the packages arrived from the UK, they had been opened, and resealed by Customs, but we never had any problems.

Pirecetam was the big one to take back then - least side effects, best potential etc. There were others of course, but the page long warnings about vomiting, cancer etc was enough to help you choose Pirecetam. I will look for the Company name and get back to you Trip -

[Cyjack]

Jack:

I am taking 1600mg piracetam 2-3 times per day.

So whats that doing for you? How long has this been going on?

[Cyjack]

Found it - Good thing I back up everything I find.

It was called Interlab. Check THIS out for a look at what we were dealing with back then. Not sure if they are still around..

[mescalito]

Apparently in Ayurveda mixing calamus with mull nullifies the 'foggy' or negative effects of cannabis,I haven't tried myself but could there be any connection here?

Also on a similar note some peeps in my neighborhood have been reporting that a pinch of sceletium snuffed moments before a cone definitly clean up the fogginess.One bloke said he even slept better too???

[Trip Dr]

I've just had a revaelation. In my readings about vasopressin i discovered that apparently at the time a male has an orgasim vasopressin levels shoot up. Now i remember some time back hearing about a study that proved people that had sex very often had decreased memory. If a males vasopressin is somewhat 'used up' after an orgasim then this may provide some explination to the lowered memory of people who have lots of sex.

So, maybe i dont need vasopressin, i just need a potent anti-masturbation drug, then i'll have the best memory in the world! :D

[Torsten]

LOL, that funny. And probably not too far from reality.

Vasopressin is released after ingestion of almost any stimulant. Vasopressin production however is quite limited. So, by starting your day with a cup of coffee you are already depleting your vasopressin. The more you drink - especially if evenly spread out through the day - the less vasopressin you have available. Vasopressin reserves are the highest in the morning. Strangely enough the best time to memorise things is also before 11am.

[Trip Dr]

Well Torsten i reckon your spot on with the coffee thing. I was up late last night drinking the stuff getting an assignment done. Got up this morning and hooked in again, i had a maths exam at 11pm. Thought some caffeene might boost the memory a bit. Coffee coffee coffee. Feeling nice and alert. Get into the exam and am stumped. Now this is a subject i am REPEATING, and i passed by one mark last time this test. I got in there and just couldnt do some questions i was usually very confident with. I think im going to try and not smoke ganja for a while, and definatly order some vasopressin. I need all the help i can get. Note: im not blaming the ganja for my lack of recall, nor the coffee. It may be a combo of the two, as well as not enough sleep and many other factors. Fact is, i should have nailed this one. I thought i actually went alright. But turns out i was wrong. Dead wrong. :mad:

[faustus]

 

quote:

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Note: im not blaming the ganja for my lack of recall, nor the coffee. It may be a combo of the two, as well as not enough sleep and many other factors.

i wouldn't blame the coffee. what if this depletion in vasopressin is offset by an increase in arousal and attentional abilities, and deeper memory encoding as a consequence? i personally prefer to avoid caffeine but i think there's a net benefit in using it when cramming etc.

good, deep sleep is the best nootropic you could ever have. it's very important for consolidation of memory.

[Torsten]

twix, studies on caffeine have repeatedly shown that it decreases recall and interferes with logical deduction and organisational skills. Mind you most of these studies were designed to prove the opposite.

Caffeine driven managers were found to be extremely 'busy' (both their own perception as well as that of the people around them) but much less productive.

In one trial a piece of fruit (apple) was found to improve managerial skill application, sugar was found to increase it momentarily and then decrease it dramatically, and caffeine was found to be highly detrimental both during the up and the down phase.

[faustus]

T i'm very open to the possibility of the detrimental effects of caffeine on cognitive performance cos i used to be against the idea of "false energy" but from what i've read this doesn't seem to be the case. usually the studies indicate an improvement, or no benefit. in some instances it can have an adverse effect, though from what i gather this is in the minority. can you find any references? don't wanna defend caffeine but evidence supports improvement in cognition, especially when sleep deprived.

here are a few quick abstracts from medline:

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Effects of caffeine, sleep loss, and stress on cognitive performance and mood during U.S. Navy SEAL training. Sea-Air-Land.

Even in the most adverse circumstances, moderate doses of caffeine can improve cognitive function, including vigilance, learning, memory, and mood state. When cognitive performance is critical and must be maintained during exposure to severe stress, administration of caffeine may provide a significant advantage. A dose of 200 mg appears to be optimal under such conditions.

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Does caffeine intake enhance absolute levels of cognitive performance?

After controlling extensively for potential confounding variables, a dose-response trend to improved performance with higher levels of coffee consumption was observed for all four tests

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Influence of caffeine on selective attention in well-rested and fatigued subjects.

Effects of caffeine were studied in a visual focused selective search task in well-rested and fatigued subjects. A dose of 200 + 50 mg caffeine or placebo, dissolved in decaffeinated coffee, was administered in a double-blind and deceptive fashion. The task was to detect a target letter on one diagonal of a visual display designated as relevant and ignore stimuli presented on the irrelevant diagonal. Behavioral measures were supplemented by event-related potential (ERP) measures. Subjects reacted faster in the caffeine condition. Caffeine enhanced the N1 and the N2b components. Selection of relevant information apparently was more adequate in this condition. Search negativity was not affected by caffeine. Caffeine effects on the P3 elicited by target letters were more pronounced in the fatigued than in the well-rested subjects, indicating that the effects of caffeine are dependent on the state of the subject. The results suggest that caffeine has specific rather than general effects on information processing.

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Caffeine, priming, and tip of the tongue: evidence for plasticity in the phonological system.

A study was performed involving phonological priming and tip-of-the-tongue states (TOTs) in which participants took either 200 mg of caffeine or placebo. Results show a clear positive priming effect produced for the caffeine group when primed with phonologically related words. When primed with unrelated words, the caffeine subgroup produced a significant increase in the number of TOTs. This contrasting effect provides evidence that the positive priming of caffeine was not a result of caffeine's well-known alertness effects. For placebo, a significant negative effect occurred with the related-word priming condition. The results support the novel hypothesis that the blocking of A, adenosine receptors by caffeine induces an increased short-term plasticity effect within the phonological retrieval system.

[Torsten]

After doing a medline search I am honestly surprised at the number of caffeine positive papers. However, three issues arose in this research.

1) Most trials did not eliminate preconditioning, hence in many/most trials the positive effect seen is merely an elimination of withdrawal effects. There is no dispute that caffeine will alleviate caffeine withdrawl and hence improve performance

2) It is clear that caffein causes mental and physical stimulation. However, my point was inreference to complex thought processes such as 'managerial tasks'. Like amphetamines, caffeine does well in increasing performance for relatively simple tasks, but looking at some of the tasks described as 'complex' in the literature I would suggest that they fall way short of managerial multitasking.

3) Coffee isn't just caffeine. There are several trials that show caffeine effects to be different to coffee effects, with the latter causing greater physical stimulation, bloodpressure rises and other effects often associated with erratic performance.

for issue #1

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2005 Jul 2;:1-8

Effects of caffeine on performance and mood: withdrawal reversal is the most plausible explanation.

CONCLUSIONS: Appropriately controlled studies show that the effects of caffeine on performance and mood, widely perceived to be net beneficial psychostimulant effects, are almost wholly attributable to reversal of adverse withdrawal effects associated with short periods of abstinence from the drug.

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Physiol Behav. 2005 Aug 7;85(5):629-34.

Effect of chronic caffeine intake on choice reaction time, mood, and visual vigilance.

In conclusion, few cognitive and psychomotor differences existed after 5 days of controlled caffeine ingestion between subjects consuming 0, 3, or 6 mg.kg(-1) day(-1) of caffeine, suggesting that chronic caffeine intake (1) has few perceptible effects on cognitive and psychomotor well-being and (2) may lead to a tolerance to some aspects of caffeine's acute effects.

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Neuropsychobiology. 2005;52(1):1-10. Epub 2005 Jun 3.

Dietary caffeine, performance and mood: enhancing and restorative effects after controlling for withdrawal reversal.

Caffeine had no significant net enhancing effects for either performance or mood when participants were rested, and produced no net restorative effects when performance and mood were degraded by sleep restriction.

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Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2005 Jun;179(4):742-52. Epub 2005 Jan 26.

Effects of caffeine and caffeine withdrawal on mood and cognitive performance degraded by sleep restriction.

CONCLUSIONS: The findings provide strong support for the withdrawal reversal hypothesis. In particular, cognitive performance was found to be affected adversely by acute caffeine withdrawal and, even in the context of alertness lowered by sleep restriction, cognitive performance was not improved by caffeine in the absence of these withdrawal effects. Different patterns of effects (or lack of effects) of caffeine and caffeine withdrawal were found for other variables, but overall these results also suggest that there is little benefit to be gained from caffeine consumption.

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for issue #3

Hypertension. 2005 Sep;46(3):521-6. Epub 2005 Aug 15.

Coffee blunts mental stress-induced blood pressure increase in habitual but not in nonhabitual coffee drinkers.

In conclusion, in nonhabitual coffee drinkers, coffee enhances the cardiovascular response to mental stress with an additional increase in systolic BP, whereas in habitual drinkers, the response is blunted. Caffeine alone does not exert any potentiating effect, confirming that ingredients other than caffeine are partially responsible for the stimulating effect of coffee on the cardiovascular system.

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and this one basically says it's all placebo anyway

Hum Psychopharmacol. 2005 Apr;20(3):193-202.

The effects of caffeine and expectancy on attention and memory.

The present study contrasted caffeine's effects on individuals who expect caffeine to stimulate them and those who do not. Secondly, whether a message that caffeine rather than placebo was administered would also affect these two groups of subjects differently was investigated. The study was conducted single-blind in a 2x2x2 mixed design. The between subjects factor was whether they expected caffeine to stimulate them (E+) or not (E-) according to their self reports obtained before the experiment began. The within subjects factors were message (told caffeine vs told placebo) and beverage type (given caffeine vs placebo). Sixteen subjects in each group (n=32) performed on signal detection, memory scanning and delayed free recall tasks following ingestion of either caffeinated or decaffeinated coffee on two sessions each, a total of four experimental sessions. On each session, subjects were given a message regarding their drink (told caffeine vs told placebo). However, on two sessions there was a mismatch between the message and drink given. For signal detection, performance under caffeine was better than placebo in the E+ but not the E- group. However, subjects in the E+ group did not benefit more than the E- group in either message condition. On memory scanning, detections and false alarms did not differ for either beverage, nor was there a differential finding in the E+ and E- groups. However, reaction time under caffeine condition was shorter. No effects of message were found. Caffeine and message also did not have any effect on performance on the delayed free recall task. The hypothesis that caffeine and message would affect E+ and E- subjects differentially was partly supported.

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Given the huge number of papers on caffeine (and my lack of time) I have only given papers from a couple of months back. If anything, then it looks like caffeine consumption causes a variety of effects in different people.

I must say though that my personal experience certainly supports what I originally stated, especially in regards to coffee guzzling managers. It's difficult to tell where the buzz end and the withdrawal effects start though.

Bottom line is though that logic tells us it is impossible to work at higher than peak performance for an extended period without paying the price. So if caffeine does turn out to have a stimulating effect on task performance then there must also come a down period where performance is lowered.

[ 04. September 2005, 15:10: Message edited by: Torsten ]