String theory ?

[2b]

Anyone catch the doco. on SBS about string theory ? Must say it left me baffeled , was the basic theory that everything is made up of realy realy smal things (Strings )that could never be messured but will tie Einstiens theory of gravity in with Quantam mechanics ? I mean the show was full of Hollywood style special effects and a lot of 'smart" looking people but at the end i found myself saying " So what was the theory ? ". :confused: If anyone could enlighten me on this it would be most appreciated.

[narayan]

The string theory states that the universe is made of 1 dimensional strings which form a loop and are all the same size (something like 10^-33 m). There are two types of strings; the ones that can break into an open string and the ones that can't.

The strings that can open are strings are able to transmit forces and the strings that are closed are the strings that create matter.

So basically the string theory means that all matter/energy/forces in the universe is caused by the musical notes that these vibrating strings make. Which means is that the universe is one harmonious piece of music.

The theory also says that there are 10/11 dimensions, 9 and 1 time. We are able to detect 3 dimensions but the other 6/7 are wrapped around themselves into a sphere which is unobservable to us (Imagine a cube explaining to the square what the 3rd dimesion is like).

This is all a gross over simplification of an incredibly complex subject and you can probably find better explanations on google, but its pretty hard to find a really simple explanation because there really is none.

 

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was the basic theory that everything is made up of realy realy smal things (Strings )that could never be messured but will tie Einstiens theory of gravity in with Quantam mechanics ?

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What they mean by this is that quantam mechanics describe things on incredibley small scales, ie the positions of electrons around the nucleus of an atom and the einstein/newtonian physics model things on large scales like planets, the string theory will work on both of these scales.

There are several types of string theories each with its own special properties and if you combine all of these theories together you get the M-theory which explains everthing in the universe and could be thought of as the rules that govern the matrix/gods will/one singular being which we are all a part of

[ 30. November 2004, 09:04: Message edited by: narayan ]

[ramon]

This is all a gross over simplification of an incredibly complex subject and you can probably find better explanations on google, but its pretty hard to find a really simple explanation because there really is none.

 

I don't think it is possible to explain it any simpler. That is a brilliant explanation due to it being so succinct.

[The Dude]

great explanation, one question tho. Those diagrams are 2 dimentional. How can a loop or a vibrating wave exist in one dimension? It would be a straight line...

The rest of the Theory i understand, that is i get the concept but you can leave all that mathematical calculations and shit right out!

[nabraxas]

2ben--that show was the first part ov a series on string theory. in the first episode he just went over einstiens work & how he was left behind by the development ov quantum physics, from which string theory grew.

you are dead right he didn't explain string theory much, but i guess that's because he'll deal with it in full in one ov the comming episodes.

was a great show, some ov his thought experiments were great.

[monkeydance]

good luck explaining string theory without maths

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/resonance.html

Edit, took a while as i haven't watched the prog for some time but here is the description they give in the prog from chapter 6. (second link)

I just love this stuff as all of my deepest, most profound psychedelic experiences have shown the power of harmonic and resonance that create all of the Universe we know and any other we care to create when at this level.

What a buzz

[ 01. December 2004, 21:17: Message edited by: Slarty Fart Blaster ]

[mescalito]

 

Aum :cool:

[Shorza]

I strongly suggest reading 'The elegant universe' by Brian Greene. A great book explaining theories from realativity to string, and all written in a way that everyone can understand.

[narayan]

Anyone see tonights episode on sbs? They pretty much went through what string theory is and had some really good animations to help explain.

The more you read into string theory the crazier it gets, cyjacks end of the world thoery seems to make more sense than some of the discoveries that are being made about the universe by physicists.

For example the doco talked about how our universe could be one of several parallel universes which exists on membranes which are analgous to sheets of paper floating around. When two of these membranes collide there is tremondous amounts of energy created and this is what is commonley reffered to as the big bang.

Both ends of the open strings are attached to this membrane and this is why it is impossible for open string particles to move from one parallel universe to another. But with closed string forces such as gravity the strings move freely away from the membrane and can possible move into other membranes, and that it may be possible to detect the gravity from parallel universes.

I just hope that people use these discoveries to make technologies which do good things for the world and not build lasers which are capable of blowing the moon apart.

[2b]

Yeah , saw the episode last night. I can say now that i have a basic grasp on strings , but the 11 dimentions and "M" theory are going to take a bit longer to understand ?

[nabraxas]

zenubee--i think half the physics community has trouble grasping the 11 universes & M theory, so you aint alone

Ed Witten is one cool m'fker though

[2b]

Yeah a strange ,softley spoken cat he is. Would love to have him over for dinner and thrash this out over a few reds !!(I doubt he drinks !!) :confused:

[The Dude]

I understood the Big Bang theory was a possibility of two membranes colliding but not nessecarily what would happen. As I understood it having all matter an energy condensed to an infinitely small size (pre-big bang) just made no sense as all physics equations ceased to function or would spit out absurd numbers.

It's all pretty interesting really. And easy enough to grasp the Theories but I don't get how you could experimentally determine if any of these theories are true (and then all the mathematic equations associated with that - fugedaboudit)

It'd be really amazing if they finally find out if gravitons emmitted by the smashing of hydrogen atoms escape into parralell universes (explaining the relatively weak force of gravity). But how the fork does one measure a unit of gravity? a graviton? WTF i dont get it its all pretty mind boggling.

I think in the next episode they'll talk about 'reflections' of strings in the universe. That when the big bang occured all the tiny strings (that are impossible to measure) expanded into giant (stars, galaxies, shapes, what?) and that could be a way to test their existence.

I think the 11 dimensions and parralell universes is a truly fantastic idea. Really gets me excited to think about it. Apparently due to us being made out of matter (open ended) strings we are bound to our membrane in our own universe but i'm curious how much truth their is to experiences of people on various substances of transcending space and time into 'hyperspace' (not sure what that concept means exactly). Could this be our life energy, spirit, force (open ended string) moving into parallel universes or even outside the bread loaf itself?

It's also important to remember that although many smart dudes are working on all this, it's still just a theory, all these fantastic concepts could just be a fantasy.

But I prefer to believe in an uncomprehendable-philosphically-tough-as-a-mofo-forcing-my-mind-to-expand-laterally-and-into-other-directions-i-can't-quite-understand-type fantasy than reversing into the other direction of close-minded beliefs in mythological religions (yeah all of them) or that the world rests on the back of a giant turtle.

But while we wait by for experimentally proven evidence, i like to believe in this theory cuz as that dude said at the end of the last program "Something so mathematically eloquent can't be 100% wrong" - something along those lines.

[bloodbob]

There is with the idea that the gravitons can float off a braid. The chance the a graviton will fall off the braid must of course be propotional to the distance taveled as a graviton the travels twice as far is twice as likely to leave. But we find that the fall of gravity is the same as light 1/r^2 but it should be 1/r^3.

[mr toodly]

Where do the strings come from?

[ramon]

Only seen one episode of this show but I think that instead of braid they were called brane's

[Rev]

r. Jackson:

Where do the strings come from?

what do you mean> you mean origin?

they dont have to come from anywhere

we are finite quantities bound by time so its fair we are predispositioned by our question of where we came from and wher ewe are going to ask this question of other parts of teh cosmos

but maybe it is an errant assumption that the universe or its fabric had a beginning or will have an end

i had this scenario while on the strongest acid of my life that there was no begginning or end just a loop

every moment past present and future already exists, has already hapenned, an infinite number of times in exactly the same way and couldnt have done so any other way simply because it is the universe and everything works exactly as it should

were just going through the motions

however we still think we have choice mainly because we have no way of knowing whether this is the first time its happenned or the 1 to the nth time

this way we r still fresh

however we are destined to choose what we do and have no choice to do any different just beacuse we are a functioning part of the rules of the cosmos which make it play out the same way every time anyway

so if the universe has always been here and all moments of time exist simultaneously then really there is only the perception of movemnet, o/wise everything is static and has no need for an origin excpet perhaps the symbol of a snake eating its tail

[2b]

They are 'branes' , short for membrane.

[mr toodly]

 

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Originally posted by reville:

 

they dont have to come from anywhere

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But how can you tell?

 

we are finite quantities bound by time so its fair we are predispositioned by our question of where we came from and wher ewe are going to ask this question of other parts of teh cosmos

but maybe it is an errant assumption that the universe or its fabric had a beginning or will have an end

i had this scenario while on the strongest acid of my life that there was no begginning or end just a loop

every moment past present and future already exists, has already hapenned, an infinite number of times in exactly the same way and couldnt have done so any other way simply because it is the universe and everything works exactly as it should

were just going through the motions

however we still think we have choice mainly because we have no way of knowing whether this is the first time its happenned or the 1 to the nth time

this way we r still fresh

however we are destined to choose what we do and have no choice to do any different just beacuse we are a functioning part of the rules of the cosmos which make it play out the same way every time anyway

so if the universe has always been here and all moments of time exist simultaneously then really there is only the perception of movemnet, o/wise everything is static and has no need for an origin excpet perhaps the symbol of a snake eating its tail

But that's murky mysticism. People have seen all kinds of things on drugs.

I think mind altering drugs teach a better lesson. They lead one to pose the question, "Can sensibles be relied upon in pursuit of truth?"

The answer you all seem to give implicitly is, "No"

Afterall. We cannot see strings. We know of them through the rational faculty. But the rational faculty itself deals with abstractions from sensibles. How is it that the rational faculty penetrates its base? It can't. That requires a leap of faith

Even if one could render the string sensible through the use of some kind of instrument, this would be insufficient, because it would be mediated sensation. That is, it would be a type of sensible (one that is complete intangible) mediated by a sensible of intuition.

But you say, "Oh, but we can demonstrate principles of objective reality through experiment"

No. One demonstrates principles of practicality through the experiment. Not truth.

We know absolutely nothing about this world. As a friend of mine once said, "The only thing I think anyone can say is that IT is"

[Rev]

 

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We know absolutely nothing about this world. As a friend of mine once said, "The only thing I think anyone can say is that IT is"

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therefore my assumption is the null hypothesis and stands

the universe has always been here and always will be

its up to the doubters to first prove it has to have an origin then find out what that is

 

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They lead one to pose the question, "Can sensibles be relied upon in pursuit of truth?"

 

The answer you all seem to give implicitly is, "No"

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yes. because the universe in its entirety is a discrete unit made up entirely of a handful of subunits in infinite combinations such that we and our minds, even our thoughts are made of the same fabric as stars and everything else i think we are capable of deep insight into the fabric of the universe. And though it might be scoffed at now i think its fully reconcilable that this super computer in our skulls took a turn some way back that allowed it to start decoding this input as a new sense called consiousness

some organs sense light, some heat, some elctricity, i think our brains became so swollen so fast because we chanced upon the 'mind of god'

that is sensing the underlying fabric of existence

It is my belief that consciousness itself is god and that the underlying fabric of the universe is this same principle we are learning to exploit

of course theres cruel catch. The worst thing that can happen to a sentient being is to know the great wholeness and permanence of the universe and yet realise their own impermanence

if we could conquer death we would be gods

 

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But that's murky mysticism. People have seen all kinds of things on drugs.

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no only the imnterpretation is murky. the revelations itself was blindingly clear.

people do see all sorts of things on drugs but i dont think its the drug that makes you see anything

the drug is just a tool to facilitate and altered state and to become recpetive to other senses

again- the visions exist, they are

so my null hypothesis is that if they are then they are real - on some level

it is up to the doubters to prove they are not real and if so what are they

cos at the moment our society recognises their existence as 'hallucinations' yet in a strange twist of logic denies their reality without offerring proof of what they are if not real albeit altered perceptions of the structure of the universe

[Thelema]

ah, so the burden of proof is not on the claimants side?

I think rjacksons question is very apt. If, after all, the strings dont have to come from anywhere, then presumably by operating on this hypothesis, the Universe wouldnt have to have come from anywhere either.

But strings were theorized to explain the origins of universe; hence, by their own assumption of operation, they fall prey to the question of origin too.

So either downgrade and accept that "the universe didnt have to come from anywhere" or end up in an infinite regress of theories of origins. String theory by itself does not answer the question of origins very well at all, it just delays the question by another remove. maybe soon these metaphysically-derelict physicists will come up with a meta-string theory, explaining the origins of strings by appeal to a higher brane of "worms" etc etc

[mr toodly]

To clarify completely: My point is that metaphysics isn't possible until we have solved this solipsistic problem. It's reaks of the question, "What is mind?"

We can know nothing about reality (By this I mean the objective, basal world. What is really real-that thing beyond sense perception that we are talking about) if there is one at all, until we have figured out what consciousness is, and how it functions.

Until this happens, we can only call sensibles, including the fields of science and philosophy, "objects of consciousness".

[Thelema]

Is consciousness a thing within the world of sensibles?

[mr toodly]

Consciousness is a twofold faculty. Consciousness-of-other-things is the medium of sensibles. Self-consciousness is the medium of concepts abstracted from sensibles.This is the dialogue going on in your head.

This is a pretty arbitrary division that I support with some hesitation. The dichotomy probably does not exist. But I think we can safely say that (1) We are conscious (Although it is unclear what consciousness is) (2) Consciousness is full of objects that seem to be received by sense organs. (3) These sensible objects are the origin of abstractions. That is, a multitude of like objects somehow impress themselves on the faculty of abstraction, and become general concepts. We come up with terse symbols as shorthand for the concept, and more symbols for aspects of the concept, and then again, more symbols for the aspects of the aspects of the concept, ad infinitum. Ad nauseam?

The words can be strung together to make statements. I'm not going to go any further because I just saw your signature. Just allow for a natural language with some form of nouns, verbs, adjectives, and quanitfiers. As you know, this allows someone to make true/false statements.

But we need to remember that they are true/false statements ultimately about sensibles. Oh, and of course about guesses. The guess is actually really interesting because it's the imposition of sense-based language on a supposed super-sensible.

Sometimes statements based on guesses can be used to effect change in the world of sensibles, in the consciousness-of-other-things. This is really cool, but it doesn't give us evidence of a super-sensible world. It just works.