Corporate disbelief

[Rev]

Im befuddled

a few weeks ago Telstra announces record profits

and yet my line rental keeps of creeping up and up and up?

And today QANTAS reports massive profits (up 89% and with costs falling by 5%) and then turns around and says it may be increasing the Fuel surcharge to cover rising oil costs

Then theres the banks ripping off credit card holders by keeping rates high all the time the rates were low.

And compulsory superannuation - with all its fees and then the govt tax on something designed to save the govt from its obligations!

and surely more rorts on all these services which have been or are being purposely embedded into the essential palate of modern life

(eg the cashless society and EFTPOS and CC convenience undermining real currency transactions so that now when most is done with card they can up the fees on every transaction both ways and in effect draw a substantial new TAX right into private coffers)

what is going on?????

I know this is just one of those things we just have to accept (the golden rule) but it shocks me that we have degenerated to the state the MOFO's can get away with such glaringly obvious contradictions in the same breath and nothing is said by anyone

Being impotent against the machine is something i am resigning myself to ie. pay up and get on with it, the worlds always been run by some kind of mafia - but truly accepting it? never! the we are really just slaves, or worse, dairy cattle "consumers". I mean we can smile and take it but we cant afford to lose that sense of injustice or outrage when stiffed.

I just want to know there are others who see the same way cos many people i meet dont even seem disturbed by this blatant conspiracy between all thse large companies who merge at so many levels

with all their schemes to oust all competition

You can see it moving into an end game scenario now with 'discount' Fuel places simultaneously driving in the nails for independant fuel distributors and independant grocers alike.

The future will be scary - when all competition is wiped out and the prices go back up to wherever they want them!

[ 19. August 2004, 20:51: Message edited by: reville ]

[spaced]

You're not wrong there Rev. The only solution is to boycott everything. You can't be too careful, for instance you think you'll shop at Newmart, you're really shopping for Coles-Myer, buy Mount Franklin spring water, you're buying Coca Cola. You can't really be too sure if that next chocolate bar you're buying won't be going towards the global arms trade. I can't help but recall the irony of a year or two back when at the height of media hysteria surrounding tensions in the middle east people were driving around in their cars with a sticker on the rear window stating "NO WAR FOR OIL." I could understand someone having such a sticker on a bike - but a car?

The less you spend, the more wind you take out of their sails. There are alternatives - LETS, the local economic trade system for instance. The only real hope is to grow your own food and never drive a car. Now if everyone did that the world would be such a better place. Whenever I watch the news with all the tragedy occuring around the world, I simply apply this one question - would that have happened if people didn't use motorised transport and all drugs were legal, and surprisingly, 99% of the time the answer is no - try it you'll be surprised.

[Rev]

That really is an ideal situation and i certainly plan to have at least some of those bases covered

Water, Food and Waste management im certainly making a priority to get out of the Gulag. Power isnt economically feasible but if i had the $ id do it anyway just to have the satisfaction

I do think also the push to sell off telstra and other utilities was a govt/corporate conspiracy to increase the 'mums and dads' shareholders of australia. To normalise shareholding

It took the sting out of having to buy what was already yours. It was a gauranteed winner (T1) so it gave good political mileage to the further sell off. It also made somewhat more understandable the greedy ethics of corporations to maximise shareholder dividends at all cost.

Many households cheer a profit because they have shares while in reality they pay quite a bit if not all of it back in their extra line rental and call fees and its at the stage more than a few people are questioning the affordability of a landline (if it wasnt for the internet theres no way id have one!)

It also put a large number of naive investors into the market which no doubt were like sardines to the proffessional sharks.

I saw a segmnet tonight about a Vaccine for rotavirus a tropical disease killing a child a minute worldwide. Phase 2 trials were canned after funding couldnt be found, notably from CSL (Commonwealth Serum laboratories) a recently privatised ex gov institution

(I remember watching CSL shott from $10 a share to $44 a share over a year)

Now they are private they turned down the vaccine as 'not being commercially viable'

so millions of children have died including in Australia. The estimated cost for Phase 2 trial is a measly 500 000 - 1 million

so this is where we are heading all across the board. and the govt fully supports all this profit driven overcharging because every charge no matter how small or for what purpose attracts a 10% GST levy straight to the Govt coffers. If the govt had its way not even fresh food or medicine would have escaped it! the whole system just encourages businesses to simply add the GST on top of the old price, theres no easy way to figure it out otherwise.

My frustration is that its all fucked. At the core its rotten - the Australian people instead of turning up at Alan jones or whats-his-names place with fucking pitchforks demanding the bastards be lynched just do nothing while the bastards have dinner with the PM and the judges and QC's that should be locking them up.

This country has continued its role as a whore, a client state, so sad not for losing its dignity but for not even have having it to lose in the first place. A colony, then ally to Britain, then the US, now slave to big business and Pax americana. Ready and willing to spill our young blood for our masters praise. Its embarassing and its so clear to anyone but us what we are

Its so especially embarassing when we act big in Global and UN diplomacy when everyone knows we are just a slut in an evening dress on the arm of the US

[monkeydance]

I nearly bought a megaphone the other day....

Maybe if I am louder, I will be harder to ignore.

[NatureBoy]

Reville said:

My frustration is that its all fucked. At the core its rotten - the Australian people instead of turning up at Alan jones or whats-his-names place with fucking pitchforks demanding the bastards be lynched just do nothing while the bastards have dinner with the PM and the judges and QC's that should be locking them up.

-------------------

Hey Rev, with regards to this and other points you made: I think a lot of people are frustrated, and I know there are many who are not apathetic.

Are you going to do something constructive about your frustration?

It is my opinion that the majority of people who are working to pay off their mortgage etc. have their own things (personal problems/lack of energy from working so much) on their mind... and possibly don't have the energy to tackle any of these larger issues. Unfortunately I believe that means that those who do have the time/energy have the difficult responsibility to take 'appropriate action' or speak out against the injustices they feel. This is most most difficult to do alone.

Do you know any friends who feel as frustrated as you?

because if you want to make a difference, you can't do it alone unless you're someone like Jesus or Gandhi, and even they had friends to help them out.

[Rev]

Ok ill start by apologising for opening up such a self indulgent can of worms

Thisngs just boil over sometimes and Chillspace is absolutely the only place that even comes close to a platform to ask questions, raise concerns, get your head straight

What am i going to do?

The answer is certainly - nothing - well not in the macro sense

at least until i get my head around the problem, as it relates to everything from my own life up to the future of our society and am able to see what can be done.

trying to piece together the conspiracy of the the 'Australian dream' and see it clearly is a necessary prerequisite to finding an alternative vision. And an analysis of where we've gone wrong along the way might give us some guidelines as to a way back.

Im seeing little scenarios playing out where economic fiddlings equate to political and socail destabilisation in favour of Big business and conservative governments.

Take the first home buyers grant.They gave 7K to get you started.. great except everyone can get it so the prices quickly readjust to compensate. Gets the public right back into real estate in a market gone crazy with inflation from the 7K, stock market instability and low interest rates.

repercussions: Home owners happy with economy as their house value is waaaay up. Home buyers way overcommitted and nervous about Labours past economic management (interest rates) Result: MAJOR playing card (FEAR) for the govt and blank cheque for governance based on economic stability with all other issues a distant second.

By stretching people out so far on credit or by convincing the they have something big to lose you can lessen the strength of conscience by making peoples primary concern covering their own arse.

To me this, like the tendency for people to believe the govt lines about terrorism, assylum seekers, WMD and whatever else, is a warning sign of naivety and optimism, a fatal pair.

And a tendency to forget the past too easily and so overcommit on the grounds of strangers advice.

And then we find the truth was a lie and the opportunity a trap.

Never believe the govt has a conscience especially when it appears to

Never believe a financial scheme or opportunity places you as the primary benefactor the road into financial slavery is very seductive.

When i think of people getting mortgages or signing onto pat TV or mobile plans im reminded of the stories of indentured labour and Coolies.

Sold a dream - with strings attached

And i dont think im exagerating either. There are two things at stake - firstly the mindset of belief in strangers. Why do people have the confidence to lock themselves down to debt for a time period in excess of what can be planned for where they have no idea what the future holds. In whom do they trust?

Secondly both situations involve debts of magnitude to both parties relative to their means.

Again im just musing with all these questions.

Why do ethnic australians ( i mean 'Aussies' by this) believe in the mortgage and Credit system over alternatives?

Contrast this to more recent arrivals. Jokes about Wogs and cash and crowded Asian families aside the mindset is very different. The trust in the financial sector isnt the same, when many of these people buy a house they do just that - outright. borrowing from within the family or just squirelling every bit away until theyve got the $ - even if it includes a fair bit of black $

If Ethnic Australians were to adopt this method theyd be spending less on consumer items, buying smaller first homes and financing it themselves alongside loans from family members - and its plain to see that at this point in time with the amount of "bullshit' disposable money that flies around on gadgetry, fashion, booze or accesory items that 1/2 a dozen baby boomer rellies could, if they tried, easily lend you the $ to get started. Even with interest theyd get more thn the money in investmnets and you pay less than the bank charges.

so what are we doing? and what is the cause of these nonsensical things we do. when and why did we start believing in the 'system' over our own enterprise.

anyway ive said enough for one stretch. Like anything i write im mostly saying it to make it clear to myself. And i put it here because one person somewhere might thinks some of it is worthwhile and pitch in with the revolutionary solution

[gomaos]

what rev just wrote makes a lot of sense,

and this:

It is my opinion that the majority of people who are working to pay off their mortgage etc. have their own things (personal problems/lack of energy from working so much) on their mind...

seems to point where the general problem is:

attitude...

as far as I can tell from experience, like getting to know people at workplaces and elsewhere, it's the australian attitude, that once one get's into the work force, to work as hard and much as possible, say 70-80 hours per week, save as much money as one can, get a family, buy a house, a car etc etc and always make more money until at 50 or 60 one collapses and can do no more...

some modern day philosopher has likened this behaviour to a "baby who cuts open his mothers breast so he/she can drink more"

these days the world becomes more and more crowded and we should take on a more gentle attidtude...

instead of cutting open the breast, just suck gently but firmly...

take your time for everything...

don't be so pushy in business, since there's always competition and there always will be...

and so on...

[ramon]

I don't disaggree with the views expressed regarding the ' system '.

However this does not lead me to boycotting the system, as my quality of life would be better within the system as opposed to outside it.

I have the ideal of self sufficiency to guide me whilst still participating in our comsumer society. Being self sufficient means primarily to me that I should not be in debt, so these days most o my money goes towards paying off our mortage.

I can happily do this because I can count the number of years left in one hand, so there is light at the end of the tunnel.

essentially what I am trying to say is that you can identify the worst excess of corporate greed within the system and work towards insulating yourself from them.

[mescalito]

I was talking to my best friend yesterday on how our local community is out of control through chasing the tail of reason (and debt!)...exactly Rev and Gom's take too I see.

Playing along with the game is pretty self-defeating if you're not happy with it..'if you think the system's working-ask somebody who aint'

I said to her:

"I just wish EVERYONE here would stop for one day-just actually STOP for once in their lives.

Forget about the bank balance forget about the TV the fuel guage the mobile phone the time-the past and it's projections the future and it's unknown anxieties...and get this town to gather in a celebration to celebrate making it this far with fuck-all help from the government"

We need to get people to start "seeing" again...HOW is up to minority thinkers such as yourselves

[Rev]

Ramon:

essentially what I am trying to say is that you can identify the worst excess of corporate greed within  the system and work towards insulating yourself from them.

I like that train of thought. It is true it is near impossible to avoid the system, no, it is impossible

Even if you live on your own place in the bush supply all your own needs, use no cash,reveive no services, have no income and never leave your place - you still have to pay rates to the council - in legal tender = debt.

And of course there is the law of the land with its prohibitions and penalties which apply whether or not you are the sole hermit habitant.

you cant get away from it

Even barter systems - if successful enough like Bartercard - lead to new rulings from the tax office that attract taxation even where no legal tender has changed hands. Johnny gets his pound of flesh no matter what.

Since i know we have to work within the broad parameters of an inescapible system this is what puzzles me and makes me want to know what makes it tick and all the scam and alterior motives in action.

Theres been some fantastic inovations in the past and especially with technology recently being put together to reduce consumption :water shower heads, fluoro bulbs, reed beds for effluent, solar hot water, recycling and so so many more

Interupting reliance on outside inputs (debt) is most often excellent for the environment so it truly is the way

Though in the broader sense we have actually gone backward. Consumption has increased and everything possible has been done to thwart anything that limits it - or if its an essential service is taken out of the communities hands and given to private interests to milk a profit.

It doesnt help having a govt and an opposition who gauge the state of the nation by the profits and economic growth of its most rapacious industries and institutions.

But as many voters agree with that philosophy being as maggie thattcher said the only way the we have a problem of tunnel vision. What we need is a new philosophy and policy that can reduce consumption, save the environment, maintain a high standard of living and ultimately save society. I think its possible but its prerequisite involves changing die hard traditions about the way we live. Thats the hardest thing i can think of.

[NatureBoy]

reville said:

What we need is a new philosophy and policy that can reduce consumption, save the environment, maintain a high standard of living and ultimately save society. I think its possible but its prerequisite involves changing die hard traditions about the way we live. Thats the hardest thing i can think of.

----------------------

I don't think you are wrong....especially as in how that is the hardest thing I can think of too.

I've never been an "capatalism is evil" person and I still don't think that - because at its most basic level it (at least) seems to be one of the best ways of exchanging goods and services and enabling a (seemingly?) wide variety of choices in how to do so. YET it is a system that is very closely related the points you have mentioned in:

consumption (reducing)

environment (saving)

standard of living

and from my perspective the 'system' is failing to come to grips with a changing world environment (and the degredation of the 'non-human' world). I could be wrong, but my best guess is that the current capitalism is failing society in these regards not because the WHOLE system is faulty, but because of the core values and goals (or lack thereof) of the current capitalist system are in many ways not consistent with ensuring the continued survival of future generations of humans and the rest of the species on earth - instead the values (or lack thereof) seem to lie in simply extracting the most wealth ($) in the shortest time possible.. and this "value" is prized over all else, and is in some cases in Direct Contradiction with the prosperity of life on earth!

Maybe if we could change the underlying values and goals of capitalism then it wouldn't be necessary to throw away our entire system of exchanging goods and services?

I mean it is late and I'm pretty tired..so this is just an example. Must admit I like this discussion.

[Rev]

I like capitalism too and i do think it is a good system

Though i see two very big problems the way we are running it

Inflation and Interest

I dont understand the need for these

I understand investing money in a venture, having it pay off and getting dividends. This seems wholesome enough

but Ursury??

Big mistake

And inflation i see only as a result of interest.

I understand supply and demand but prices rise even while supply increases, the suns till shines and the rain still falls - why does milk cost more? or any renewable product for that matter

Strictly it costs less to make a litre of milk in total human effort today than it did 30 years ago - why then has the price increased? This i really dont get except that it broadens the divide between have and have not as wages never seem to keep track with inflation , neither does tax

It was noted the other week that if the tax free threshold had been kept in line with inflation the TFT would now be 14 000 dollars not 6000.

[-YT-]

I really liked wat u said Reville

but to instill change people have 2 open their minds and these days most ppl all they care about is the desire and the chase of money/material possessions and never stop to think, and just be and admire nature and connect with the earth we need a cultural revolution to open ppls mind to change kinda like the 60's with music and drugs. but wat im trying to say is i want this so called "society" to change its ways but it will need something big for it to happen just my OPINION

so do u guys think ppl like us can do something today and NOW??? BUT WAT?

[mescalito]

We move inch by inch

Pink Floyds' 'the wall' is a nice insight into the roots of the current mentality that serves this type of bullshit attitude up and makes it a reality that we're supposed to just eat enjoy and STFU!

Many peoples parents came from a 'programmed' generation and have endeavoured in their wisdom to pass the legacy on as was given unto them and so on...

The problem is that we're easily lulled into feeling supported when we are actually being purposefully and generally wantingly held below the "breadline".

It's like we're supposed to feel in debt to some authority for doing something for us yet in general we accept this as being normal

If nothing else kills 'em hopefully it'll be wear and tear by the resistance

[ 28. August 2004, 03:30: Message edited by: mescalito ]

[Guest electro]

reville:

"I like capitalism too and i do think it is a good system Though i see two very big problems the way we are running it

Inflation and Interest

I dont understand the need for these "

the need for inflation is simple .. peoples need to make a profit from the goods they render.. interest on the other hand is the method of controlling expendature .. if the buying market heats up too much, raise interest to curb that to ensure the market doesnt overheat then collapse ... in doing this people cut their margins and inflation slows ...

still, the more industries that get involved inbetween primary production and final product the higher the prices creep, and the lower margins get .. until some poor bastard decided that 10cents extra on each milk sold may help put his kid through school... so he ups it when the market can take it & everyone else adjusts their prices accordingly ...

"And inflation i see only as a result of interest."

its the other way round .. inflation is a result of people trying to make a profit when the market is in a position to take the price rise - almost every industry is conected somehow so if one raises prices, all have to pass that cost on or lose profit or fire people to reduce expendature.

interest on the other hand is to regulate fluctuations in the economy .. lower general spending results in lowered interest rates which encourage spending & vice versa .. if anything interest inhibits inflation - higher interest rates, spending slows, people become more competitive with prices to bid for the business, generally by cutting margin.

lower interest rates, economy is already slow, less spending, more competition at lower prices to attract the business ... as far as i can see, interest regulates the economy and in turn regulates inflation.

"I understand supply and demand but prices rise even while supply increases, the suns till shines and the rain still falls - why does milk cost more?"

1) inflation

2) more industries involved & to a greater exctent than in the past (because more industries are getting involved between product and consumer) ...

eg once less companies were involved.. there was more of a reliance on manual labour than on machines which localised money distribution ... eg farmer payed wagesmn of people to milk and had his own drivers that would drive milk to the dairy

nowdays primary producers will now have accountants, power companies, telco companies, freight companies, possibly it companies, heavy reliance on oil industry for fuel etc and all these companies have their own it, telco, frieght etc companies ... they all want a piece of the pie which means indirectly the price of your milk has to pay for the wages of everyone involved

im not saying they didnt have a reliance on companies like this before, i just think they have become more reliant on these companies rather than on manual labour which means they have to spend more on these .. it may increase production and reduce costs for the primary producer, but as you get futher and futher down the line from the primary production (ie to supermarkets) that many differentn companies have had theri invvolvement that prices have to go up to pay for them all ....

between primary production and supermarket i wouldnt be surprised if there were at least 7 different IT companies charging for services in there ... IT company for farmer, for freight co, for dairy, for telco, for power co, for insurance co & finally for supermarket...

thats alot of it work being paid for by that milk ... and im sure other indusrties get in there the same way ...

3)artificial demand created by advertising - see the great soft drink war - coke vs pepsi .. massive oversupply, but through advertising & gimics they create an artificial market fluctuation which lets them put the price up ... when they arent going well the price drops dramaticly (ie between 2.90 in the supermarket for 2l through to 1.35 in the supermarket for the same product)

"It was noted the other week that if the tax free threshold had been kept in line with inflation the TFT would now be 14 000 dollars not 6000."

maybe so, but we all be in an uproar id we had to start paying for hospital ala states style ...

im hapy to pay tax so long as i dont end up living in aust-america lol ..

As a side note, if we keep trying to shift the tax back to the companies and employers we are going to seriously screw australia by chasing all our employers overseas ...

yea they may avoid some taxes, but the fact is that taxes on employers here are the some of the highest in the world (even after they avoid some tax through their writeoffs) .. it is cheaper to make almost anything in any other country while paying identical wages AND paying for freight to ship goods over to australia than it is to produce in australia and pay the taxes imposed ...add to that that wages in alot of countries are much less than here and it makes moving offshore a very attractive thing for employers... it doesnt pay to be an employer in aus, it pays to say fuck australia and move offshore - i for one dont want to add to that by trying to get them taxed more (cos we will end up with higher unemployment and those who are lucky enough to be employed wile end up being taxed even more cos the taxation money has to come from somewhere)

being taxed from 6000 up is a small price to pay to not chase all the substantial employers overseas.

[ 29. August 2004, 10:30: Message edited by: electro ]

[jalien]

i find it hard to have a sense of calm

and good judgement about the whole money thing

i had what you might call a "bad trip" with shroooms

when i asked them for money

capitalism has its violent aspects alright

it has been called the roman empire or nazism

by other means, a force that alienates and

trivialises lives, a system of slavery

i think nanotechnology is going to transform

the material world though - in a scifi abundance kinda way - capitalism in 10 years

will be unrecognisable

good thing too

freetopia

[Machine Elf]

Rev wrote:

> Home buyers way overcommitted and nervous about

> Labours past economic management (interest

> rates) Result: MAJOR playing card (FEAR) for the

> govt and blank cheque for governance based on

> economic stability with all other issues a

> distant second.

Damn straight Rev - I'd been thinking this myself and then when the election was announced yesterday that's about all Howard talked about in his publicity. Brilliant politically - make people over-extend themselves, and then bring the fear factor in.

I have two mortgages, and I'm pretty worried about how Labour will manage the economy. However, I've resolved to vote for Labour despite this (and despite the fact I don't think they offer any 'real' alternative), simply on principle. I won't be lied to, won't be manipulated, not to mention I think we're regressing socially under the current government.

> I like capitalism too and i do think it is a

> good system. Though i see two very big problems

> the way we are running it:Inflation and Interest

Inherently I think the major problem with capitalism is that it has no moral integration. At its core, capitalism is all about making money. Which starts off well, but will naturally end up as a cut-throat global battle as efficiencies are maximised (and therefore working conditions minimised - apart from perhaps government sectors)...oh, that's what is happening now.

What we need, not just in finance but also in politics and other fields is to remove dualistic thinking - e.g. "it's either capitalism or communism". We need to find a middle way. Marx's theories have a lot of good about them. For example, being paid on social worth: tell me how sensible the world is when a really good sportsman can earn $100 million in one year, and yet the standard wage for social workers is as close to minimum as it could be. Forgive me, but I'd rather pay someone who takes care of those with senile dementia a shitload more than all those asshole lawyers I see sitting at the local coffee club. But the current system rewards those who are worth MONEY, not social advantage.

The sad thing is that it is obvious that things need changing, but the institutionalisation of financial and political power means that the 'small man' has no chance of changing it. Perhaps the internet offers a way of redistributing power in future? But as far as I can see, we're sadly going to hell in a hand-basket. Case in point - China is opening up its markets, and despite its abysmal human rights record and dominating tendencies, countries around the world will pander to it now because the contracts are simply worth too much money. Despite Dubya's best reassurances, countries act on financial basis first, morally somewhere further down the list.

It's only a matter of time before some sort of revolution occurs. Perhaps oppressed Muslims might argue it's already underway...

I guess all I can do is act on principle. Ramon is right, I still live comfortably and can't complain about my lot. That doesn't mean, however, that I should allow corruption to rule...that would be collaboration.

Belfy

[gomaos]

you guys like capitalism...

i won't post in this thread anymore

(pulls his long black matrix coat around him and leaves floating through the back door)

[ 30. August 2004, 20:13: Message edited by: gomaos ]

[Rev]

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belfegor:

 

[it's only a matter of time before some sort of revolution occurs. Perhaps oppressed Muslims might argue it's already underway...

 

I guess all I can do is act on principle. Ramon is right, I still live comfortably and can't complain about my lot. That doesn't mean, however, that I should allow corruption to rule...that would be collaboration.

 

Belfy [/QB]

---

Unfortunately you could also see that both the choice between occupation and religion is a choice between sacrificing your identity for piecmeal rewards now or sacrificing your life for a better 'afterlife'. If the war continues as it is there is no real choice for peace or prosperity on their own terms. Only subjugation to an increasingly brutal occupier or increasingly inhumane religious factions.

Thats where afghanistan was in the 80's and still is today even though the occupier has changed. and it is the situation Iraq faces now. I wonder about the future as many people hav epointed out that real freedom and democracy is always homegrown if it works not instituted by an occupier

I think you and ramon are right, we live very comfortable lives here in australia and we shouldnt forget that. But our prosperity as always lies on a knife edge, complacency about corruption threatens everything Australia has prided itself on becoming.

Corruption and complacency about it threaten our liberty as govts make moves to institute the groundwork of a police state, and dismantle welfare and govt. responsibilities that have been a cornerstone of Aust wellbeing - like the pension, universal healthcare, etc. all said elsewhere. And when govts exploit our good moral intentions by lieing about reasons for policy it reflects badly on all of us.

When corruption rules, the rich buy the political platform to get their snouts into the trough and they have a limitless and unconscienable appetite. It doesnt take long to destroy a country

I could use the USA,Russia or New guinea as examples of countries in sharp decline in living standards and/or freedom due to plutocracy

[ 30. August 2004, 17:18: Message edited by: reville ]

[Thelema]

work is underway for a coherent philosophy of "anti-consumerism". Yes, we need a modern day Epicurus. We need a space to be cleared for groups of people to be able to conduct experiments in "living" alternatively, like the freedom philosophers had in ancient greece.

My question is: how far can one seperate capitalism from democracy? Are there any visions for an anti-capitalist democracy?

I have to be honest, Im tending more and more to a vision of a "democratic theocracy" more and more, if only it were workable...people should really take pains to understand the frightful effect capitalism is having on the muslim world, maybe it might give much needed perspective on ourselves!

[Rev]

The Problem with Theocracy though is that it requires a unity of belief which the modern nation state or federation/union doesnt have

The Iranian Islamic revolution did wonders towards the experimental islamic republic but to do so it had to harrass, detain, expel or just dispose of all competing theologies. The Zoroastrians,Communists, Atheists, Christians, jews, Bahai etc etc.

Even if it works we have to deal with the question of how ethical it is to have this kind of fallout even if it does create a perfect state. It has to be decided if the individuals human rights morally veto the states collective vision.

In some places the philosophy says no, but in the west we have a tradition of individualism that says yes. Theres obviously no one govt system for all peoples, what they will accept and respond to best depends of their preceeding cultural and intellectual history. For example i can ever have seen Communism work in the USA after the frontier and highly individualised culture preceeding the 20th. Whereas the age old russian peasantry and chinese village structures seemed much more ripe for the next step.

Its got to be much easier to govern a fairly homogenous electorate than unite a splintered nation under one god/government, unless of course you take them on a gluttony of conquest which is a traditional way of uniting empires to expand by promising the spoils from a common enemy

[spaced]

reville:

 

I saw a segmnet tonight about a Vaccine for rotavirus a tropical disease killing a child a minute worldwide. Phase 2 trials were canned after funding couldnt be found, notably from CSL (Commonwealth Serum laboratories) a recently privatised ex gov institution

(I remember watching CSL shott from $10 a share to $44 a share over a year)

Now they are private they turned down the vaccine as 'not being commercially viable'

so millions of children have died including in Australia. The estimated cost for Phase 2 trial is a  measly 500 000 - 1 million

I remember seeing this one on Catalyst. I'm a bit skeptical of their journalist integrity at times - particularly if they're talking about Cannabis. The problem is that many children die from gastroenteritis every year. This may be caused by an initial rotavirus infection or something else but the majority of these children will die from dehydration which can be prevented by simple fluid and electrolyte replacement - fresh water with a carefully balanced mix of salts and sugar, an extremely effective cure that has saved many lives. Although a rotavirus vaccine may prevent many infections, there will be many more that it won't prevent. All of us get the shits at some time or other - it may be due to chemical, viral or bacterial origins (or "inflation" and "interest") but as adults we generally have the compensatory mechanisms to overcome it. Not so with the kiddies. The whole thing reminds me of pharmaceutical companies flogging expensive and more or less useless (if not harmful eg chloramphenicol) antibiotics to developing countries and poor families wasting several weeks wages to sit back and watch their child die as the drugs don't do anything when even some diluted lemonade would have done a better job.

But back to the rant in question. They say we're born with nothing and we die with nothing. I disagree - I say we're born into debit. If you consider food, shelter, warmth, and clothing to be basic needs for survival, then you're at least several hundred thousand $ in debt if you're going to want a house to live in at some stage. The other day I spent seven bucks a kilo on tomatoes! If these are our basic needs then why should we pay for them? I remember as a kid, and I still see it occasionally, you could go for a ride around suburbia and someone would have a box of lemons sitting on the front verge with a sign saying - "free please take some." Now if everyone grew fruit and veg and the diverse cornucopia that suburbia is capable of supporting found its way on to the front verge and was available free to passers by then you certainly wouldn't see tomatoes selling for $7.00 a kilo! (btw I benefited from this experience in that I now consider tomatoes to be a gourmet food - something to eat slowly and savour rather than just shovelling down my gob as a side serve. If the bastards make it impossible to stretch a buck you may as well stretch your appreciation of whatever you have to buy).

Why should this be so impossible? I don't see why it should be some far flung fantasy that might take off in a model society / hippie commune. Anyone with a garden or room for a few pots or hanging baskets is more than capable of contributing. I could walk past several houses with neatly manicured lawns and rose bushes and think yeah well just another habitual reader of better homes and gardens but the one that'll win my heart every time is the one with the box of free lemons on the front lawn.

This is grass roots anarchy. Think of all those "console opertors" at coles and woolworths that would be liberated from the mindless machinery and the perpetual "goodmorninghowareyou" "goodthanks" "chequeorsavings?" continuum of existence. They could be set free as commonwealth gardeners helping the elderly and disabled maintain productive gardens. The fat cats at the top of these big companies would go bankrupt and out of necessity undergo deep spiritual transformations as they find harmony and integration with the common man. Then of course we wouldn't need to travel anywhere because everything would be at our doorsteps - even the bicycle would become obsolete sooner or later. No more cars / oil / global arms trade. Drugs would just become legal as a product of this because-

A) no one could be fucked joining the police force and no one would pay them too anyway, nor would there be a need to if there was any real sense of community - people wouldn't just sit back and watch real crimes, like someone get mugged or assaulted, happen right under their noses

the only convincing argument for banning drugs is that they may effect your ability behind the wheel. So get rid of the car and the three lane freeway becomes segregated on the basis of what state of consciousness you happen to be in when riding your bike.

When you think of how much of the tax payers dollar goes towards such useless projects as the war on drugs, the war on terror, and other vaguely defined semantic absurdities, then you have to ask is it worth paying taxes at all? Does anyone remember on sixty minutes years and years ago some hippie commune in the rain forest got busted by cops for growing marijuana, but it was an unlawful arrest, the cops were violent and someone caught it all on video. The hippies were trying to sue the cops for $2 million dollars and the interviewer says to the head hippie "doesn't it bother you that your taking $2 million dollars of tax payers money" and he says "I can only urge them to stop paying taxes."

So true.