A question about fear

[Felix]

Every now and again I get that "shit this it, im never coming back" moment and sometimes I wonder how I come out unscathed. In these moments there is that little voice that says "let go" but ive rarely really listened to it opting instead to fight.

Its been written about by Leary and others, with all sorts of frameworks, budhhist, shamanic, cute healing love balls and other assorted flappery to keep the sanity intact. But can someone really let go fully when it feels like the lungs, the heart and the brain have gone walkies. What do you trust in those moments and what happens if you keep fighting? Are there situations where it becomes so intense that the FEAR permanently shocks the mind, hence the old straight jacket and padded cell? Does 'letting go' actually prevent this mental shock? Can you save yourself by letting yourself 'die'?

[Darklight]

Could you be a little more specific ( without incriminating yourself of course, perhaps ask your companion animal )

If you're trialling new compounds- especially on your own- if you have a concern then letting go might not be desirable until you understand the space thoroughly.

But if you're taking reasonable doses of a known compound in a safe situation accompanied then that's a different matter- especially if you've taken that compound before

YMMV

[Thelema]

what an excellent post.

I myself have been pondering over the same questions. Someone has taken quite a few of the more notorious synthetic compounds and knows exactly what you are talking about.

I have never let myself go into death, I have always fought it (self-vigilising), in the belief that I would really die. I think it would be worth testing this, but I really don't like the odds. And if I did die, I could never write a report about it!

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

The "shit, that's it, i am totally bonkers and will never be the same again" feeling i think is a desperate attempt of your ego to deny the fact that we are more than corpses and many other dimensions are in existence.

I feel the beauty of life is that we can experience our own death and learn techniques of surviving it but i am afraid once you have had such experiences the language we use, to construct consensus reality, falls apart and is useless.

Good post,

Go with the flow.

[infinite_monkey]

i had an experience about this time last year where i thought/knew i had gone too far and was going to die.

breathing was EXTREMELY difficult i could barely move, and i could only feel a very faint heart beat and could feel an even less pulse i was really really scared (i was alone for this experience, no one to help me and i knew i was going to die and there was nothing i could do)

I remember losing consciousness then something would snap me out briefly then i would feel myself slip under again. I tried to stay conscious but it took way too much out of me, I tried to fight this "Imminent death" and it was just was too hard.

Something inside said dying is ok, dont worry just relax, there is NOTHING to be scared of,

why fight it........embrace it

LET GO

and i did (this would have to be the hardest and scariest decision i have ever made)

the feeling of release and freedom, was greater than words could explain,

i just sort of drifted off into my self

then for same strange reason something "other" than my self ripped me back and said not now, i regained consciouness, and the foreboding feeling had lifted, now i just felt like shit, i went too sleep and woke a little over a day later.

So the moral of the story, i believe and i truly believe this that if i didnt let go i would have died, i have thought lots about it and often question whether or not i really was that close to death or it was just a bad trip, but either way it was the letting go that pulled me through.

This was one HELL (literarily) of a learning experience i dont think i have learned soooooo much about myself in such a short space of time.

still not sure if i should have posted this reading it back now it kinda sounds all a little silly, but hey.

[faustus]

i'm not sure if i've gone as far as ego death cos i have nothing to compare it with but i guess if you can't describe it in words then you're definitely close. the first time it happened i wasn't ready and i completely chickened out and the experience traumatised me. really fucked me up. but fear is definitely a good rocket fuel and the next time i did much better, letting go was very hard but if you can get to the other side it's complete liberation. i was convinced that i would never come back and it didn't bother me at all.

i have a friend, no not me , who was so convinced he really was dead that he started hitting his head with his guitar because he needed to free soul. i think leary warned against this, trying to explain or rationalise the experience, clinging onto something familiar instead of letting go and having faith that you'll return.

[Felix]

Infinite monkey, Im glad you posted it, not silly at all. This is the sort of response I was hoping for - someone who's been there and has actually listened to *that* intuition.

[ 10. May 2004, 17:28: Message edited by: Felix ]

[Felix]

.

[ 10. May 2004, 17:24: Message edited by: Felix ]

[mescalito]

I feel that the FEAR of DYING is the ego's response to entering an unknown realm.

Just like you're first day at school and other 'strange' changes to the 'norm'...totally a biological,physical,tangeable reaction.

We're used to the perceived world as we have created it.

We as humans feel the need to be 'in',rather than 'out' of 'control',and the primal mechanisms are extremely hard to break.

If the substance is known and the dosage is safe,then we need to re-program this mechanism (not easy).

The tibetans amongst other cultures have known this for eons...thus the 'book of the dead',and more interestingly (and condensed), a book called "Psychedelic Experience"(Leary,Metzner and Alpert) are guides to help us with dealing with the death of the 'ego',or controller.

Hanging on to the world as we know it ties us in a limbo type state,where one is still aware of the physical body and therefore the symptoms that try to bring us 'back'.

When living in a material world matter is all that matters.

If it's safe,let go....it's indescribable (which would make sense )

Good post Felix!

[Thelema]

i too have experienced that "ripping back" effect a number of times, usually loud bangs like thunderclaps bring me out of death state and into consciousness. In my experience, I dont like to let myself go there, and in some cases I am sure that it was continuing self attention to breathing etc. that actually resulted in me not dying.

my partner too had such a state, I turned my back for 5 mins while sitting, and when I came back, partner was crumpled on the floor with no breath.

When your lower brain starts to shut down the auto-breathing system, I always thought it best to maintain conscious breath.

I guess one can explore, but I have also developed

an extraordinary vigilance and have had great learning experiences by fighting to keep myself conscious.

[Felix]

But doesnt the auto-breathing mechanism kick in once the person is unconscious? I think (or want to think) that these breathing problems may be caused by anxiety (atleast with physically safe substances) and return to normal when (if) the panic subsides. Psychonautic adventures in unknown territories, as DL says, might be a different story.

[theobromos]

My companions were very good at preparing me for being in the land of the dead and not bothering too much. I freaked out a few times when I couldn't feel the life support organs working but usually managed to let go. I did give everything up for seven years after a nasty bout of fear, curse, death and rebirth that lasted five hours. Lost inside myself with no self-awareness until recalled by visitors. But I had the most beautiful experience when I started again. I still felt that I had needed the rest.

The use of drums to call back the spirits of spiritwalkers from the land of the dead seems to be good sense to me. Though strong pleasant smells can work. The Andean cactus drinkers use a lemon-scented sort-of-cologne called arranque for recall of the patient. Star anise is a scent that can pervade every part of the multiverse in my experience. Easy to follow home.

Of course with 5MeODMT there is a real risk of the breathing being seriously depressed and unconsciousness resulting.

[nabraxas]

remember the first time i did LSD & laughed & laughed- i wish it were still like that...

i had some kind ov experience the first & only time i did salvia 5x. i didn't think it would work at all so i fully packed a large cone & held the smoke for 30 seconds then bang- straight to a space i've only been on 2+lsd tabs or ketamine.

w/no advance prep, & a seriously unfriendly setting i got the fear bad--thank god it only lasted 2 mins, i've done no true psychedelics since then. (MDMA doesn't count)

my problem, based on other trips as well, is that i get into a mindset where "normal reality" seems totally meaningless(all the things we set store by love, family, etc) compared to the ultra meaningful dimension that strong trips put me into.

-this dimension seems not only more real but beyond normal time as well. this makes me think it exists beyond death as well.

-this scares me because it shakes my ingrained belief that this life is worth living, leaving instead a sense that this life is a "joke" & the punchline is revealed after death, - that's not how i want to think.

i'm a bit stuck really. i think i'll wait 'til next shroom season & start low.