Need Energy...

[Guest DragonFyre]

have been trying to kick the ol' weed habit this past week or two but ever since stopping I have been walking around in a daze and more lethargic than ever!! I'll get up of a morning and potter round for a few hours doing stuff and by early avo Im back in bed snoring away for a few hours! and getting absolutely nothing done in the meantime...

anyone offer some advice on some good stimulants or similar that could give me some energy and motivation back? will need something STRONG (coffee and the like does absolutely nothing for me and alot of synthetic stimulants I've had in the past actually put me to sleep... ie; speed for one!) though I dont want anything that would impare the conscious, concentration (my concentration is bad enough as it is) or the ability to work... I have a killer metabolism too which just goes thru just anything so this probably doesnt help too much

any advice would be welcomed and appreciated, thanx all

[Chemical Shaman]

YOU SHOULD DO WHAT I DO AND PUT ANTS IN YOUR PANTS.

IM TRAINING ONE ANT TO STIMULATE MY PROSTATE GLAND.

[gomaos]

I've been off that terrible mindnumbing stupefying drug ALC for 5 days now and keep going, feeling betta every day.

Thanks to the shaman's, ah, Chemical Shaman's excellent anti-addiction medicine, taken twice day(or night), this has proved no prob so far.

If you're looking for a substitute, this is one of the best: 1,4,b

[Guest DragonFyre]

Originally posted by gomaos:

If you're looking for a substitute, this is one of the best: 1,4,b

as in BD (1,4-Butanediol)? Which basically is (or turns into) GHB (Gamma hydroxybutyrate)?

I was after something to give me energy and keep me awake Gomaos, not to put me to sleep and impare the consciousness!!

Can be a good (but semi-dangerous) substitute for alcohol however...

[coin]

hey dragonfyre

forgive me if any of the following seems condescending..totally not intended that way

dopamine = neurotransmitter in the brain..responsible for pleasure/euphoria, alertness, attention & focus, motivation, feeling good about your achievements, libido, etc

dopamine release is stimulated by (amongst other things of course ) weed..so if you've depleted your dopamine levels this way, which is kinda common, you should be able to bring them back up by taking the amino acid l-tyrosine..(which i'll now just call tyrosine)

tyrosine is the dietary precursor to dopamine (and also noradrenaline, responsible for a lot of the same affects).. ie your body converts tyrosine, found in protein foods, into dopamine..

taking a tyrosine supplement should raise dopamine & noradrenaline levels in the brain, and assist the adrenal glands.

you can get tyrosine off the shelf at most health food stores & pharmacies.. if the staff happen to ask what it's for (not that they would but i've noticed they often try a short consultation) you might wish to just say "my naturopath/doctor/mum suggested it for mild depression", or just read out whatever it says on the packaging..

you might want to take it with breakfast and then in the afternoon with a meal/snack, maybe around 90 minutes-2 hours before this time you're usually nodding off..

avoid taking it in the evening, or it may affect your usual ability to fall asleep.

start with 500mg per dose and see how you go for a few days..

it's more effective if taken with vitamin B6.

if you experience any migraine type symptoms (very unlikely), discontinue..

it has a mild stimulating effect, but for the best bang for your buck (lovely saying that), while restoring your dopamine levels, you sorta need to do something to trigger its release.. exercise is great..dancing, sex..beating your archenemy at chess, writing the thesis to shit over all theses, bouncing castles, playing chopin's minute waltz in 0:57, alphabet spaghetti splatter party, and so on .. stimulate yourself (naturally)

obviously you need to be exercising and eating a balanced diet..most likely this effect you've mentioned would correct itself with time (depending on the extent of your usage), but supplementing as mentioned should show some results within 3-5 days.

some people can experience little moments of feeling spaced/buzzed when using it the first day or three.. (i've used it in the past, and the first couple days, my libido increases)

avoid taking tyrosine if you're taking antidepressants or have any form of melanoma.

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 19 April 2002).]

[Darklight]

You bewdy coin got in first and did it better

Tyrosine works wonders for me too. $15 in't a lot of dosh to pay for mental health

[Guest DragonFyre]

thanx for that info and your help coin, will look into it in more depth...

being a manic-depressant (or diagnosed as one anyway) and having naturally high adrenaline & testosterone levels, taking l-tyrosine wont have any bad side effects at all? It's just I dont wanna put another drug into my system to treat depession/energy levels if its gonna cause more problems - my GP has already done that enough in the past for me (I've been on more anti-depressants than I would care to mention)

My diets never been that good but as for excersise Im already ahead of you there, normally I could get down and do 50 push-ups without breaking a sweat but lately (since giving up) I've barely had the energy/motivation to exercise at all and Im absolutely buggered after 20! Shocking!!

any more suggestions would still be appreaciated too...

[Guest DragonFyre]

Originally posted by Darklight:

$15 in't a lot of dosh to pay for mental health

and personally Darklight, I think any amount of money is worth good mental health! Our brains are one of the most important things we'll ever have...

[Torsten]

coin, from now on you can answer all the neuro questions

couldn't have said it better myself.

two additional points. as pot also releases serotoinin, the same deal applies to this neurotransmitter. Not really a problem and will in most cases correct with a good diet. HOWEVER, in the shortterm this can mean that taking tyrosine can make a little edgy and overstimulated. if this happens, then just take lower doses and more frequently.

secondly, the possible migraines you mention are due to pretty much the same mechanism as pointed out above - low serotonin levels. this is an unlikely situation in someone who is lethargic (serotonin causes lethargy, so you seem to have enough), so probably not applicable here anyway. but it is good to keep in mind that the migraines themselves are only an indicator for low serotonin.

[Guest DragonFyre]

Originally posted by Torsten:

secondly, the possible migraines you mention are due to pretty much the same mechanism as pointed out above - low serotonin levels. this is an unlikely situation in someone who is lethargic (serotonin causes lethargy, so you seem to have enough), so probably not applicable here anyway. but it is good to keep in mind that the migraines themselves are only an indicator for low serotonin.

Thanx for that Torsten, that explains all the migranes I used to ALWAYS get constantly, especially the left side of my brain thumping away like someone had a hammer pounding my skull... and they have gone away of late

The only thing is I still feel fairly depressed most of the time though, could the lethargy and lack of migranes just be from an increase in serotonin? (especially after having such low levels for a VERY long time)

Also my "mania stages" have become alot rarer and dont seem to last as long anymore... and are alot easier to control, whereas in the past they usually made me VERY violent or aggressive and at times would last for days... and this includes a LONG time before I ever started smoking weed!! I origionally started smoking cuz it kept me calm and I was able to concentrate alot more and generally was happier and also had better relationships with friends/family

[This message has been edited by DragonFyre (edited 20 April 2002).]

[Guest Thelema]

Sorry to buzz ya'all out of sorts, but the primary reason for lethargy experienced after long term pot use has little to do with neurotransmitter depletion/antagonist adaption etc..its likely that a few days after quitting

1) your neurotransmitter levels wouldve popped up to their 'usual' levels of production, barring adaptive effects (eg that your brain might have atrophied in this regard if long term)so taking tyrosine, or SSRI's would probably do little to help.

2) but production limited in the regard until THC is out of the system and the fatty tissues, as it will keep affecting your neurotransmitter productions (and BTW THC will stay around in your lung tissue and keep being absorbed for a VERY long time)

But the prime reason for lethargy after long term pot use has to do with the major depressive effect THC has on Corticoreleasing neural growth factor hormones. This is released by the pineal gland and has a major site of action around the hippocampus (the site for long term potentiation of memories and short-term traces). Another major site in the brain affected by the suppression of this hormone is the cerebellum, it accounts for the lethargy and the 'slowness' of movement experienced in long term pot users. Corticoreleasing NGF seems to need a good kick up the bum to get going...but Torsten sort of had the right idea in another post when he was talking about Vasopressin in relation to restoring himself after potuse.

There are a few other drugs that will simulate NGF but Vasopressin would be the one I would go for. NGF could take up to 2 years to get back to its pre-pot level w/o Vasopressin. Cheers!

[Darklight]

I've found that neuro tweaking is like a cascade effect. If you create as much of the right environment in one or two directions the rest can set themselves up. This is empirical only and everyone is different. But as a general rule it works

One the extremely rare occasions I've found tyrosine to produce mania ( twice in four years ) or more commonly not to be effective ( maybe twenty times in four years under extreme pressure ) it's been because my adrenaline levels are high. Yup, the good ole diet and stress, shoulda listened to mum thing

Adrenaline strongly antagonises dopamine. This may be simplistic but for mechanistic purposes its close enough. When this happens I take 1000mg glutamine. That always knocks my adrenaline levels down, and I keep some around at all times for backup.

Tyrosine + trigger ( fun activity ) = dopamine. In case this doesn't work, add glutamine and retrigger. It all sounds terribly contrived, but once it becomes a routine saves you potential huge chunks of downtime moping round the house not getting anything done and spiralling further down til something drags you out. Or not.

Signs of adrenaline overload for me, aside from tyro or 5HTP not working, are sugar cravings, any other food cravings when I'm not realy hungry, inability to concentrate or focus on important tasks, feeling like racing round but not really doing anything about it.

I've heard glutamine can have negative reactions ( care to comment Torsten, coin? )in some ppl, but never seen one in the 30 or so ppl I've given it to after parties ( for the sake of my mental health as much as theirs )

Yet another thing to consider is the psychological withdrawl, aside from the lethargy thing. Dopamine may be low and is easily raised. But I've found at times like this that serotonin is also at a temporary secondary low. Its one thing to have all the drive in the world, but if you don't love the idea of using it then it just sits there.

When I was on the road back from burnout ( thanks for the help there Torsten ) I tweaked my dopamine and adrenaline levels back to normal, was fit and really happy but for some reason simply couldn't get back to work. I really wanted to but couldn't. Sorta like having had an argument with a partner and not being able to go back and apologise it the closest I can describe it... In the end I started 5HTP supplements and it sorta got me to 'fall in love' with my work again. Now I'm much closer than I was to full productivity. Not 100% but I'm watching progress to make sure I don't burn out again...what was 100% may have in fact been 150% and I don't want to burn out again now do I?

The amino acid/ neurotransmitter model of mental health may not be entirely accurate or applicable, but its the easiest and most available to tweak, and IMO can always buy enough time to get to the next plateau, from whence other solutions may be sought. And undesirable side efffects ( though rare and signs that further investigation is needed )will only last for as long as the amino acid metabolite is around, as opposed to things like SSRIs which stay in your system for weeks and too bad if they disagree with you...

[woof woof woof]

DragonFyre, Excersize! Learn your brain that there is a different way of rewarding it's self. Weed or any other drug for that matter are shortcuts (hijacks) the reward pathway dopamine release.

Excerzize! And do your herb shaman thingy when you can really dedicate yourself to the experience.

Push your self to get a high from exerisze.

before eating breakfast go running, to force yourself to metabolize your fat storage, you will stay hyper active all day!

It all bout keepin yr energy level up Mon!

Stay IRIE

[Guest DragonFyre]

Thanx everyone for your great in-depth responses, it's great to see people are genuinely interested in helping! Alot of information to pour over and try out

and also it's been a very long term addiction... atleast 5 years since I last gave up and that was only for about 3 months anyway

Also are there any "smart" drugs that you wish to recommend to help the ol' fried brain back into action?! A quick thanx to Gomaos for the Brahmi herb too has been helping to clear the mind alot...

[This message has been edited by DragonFyre (edited 20 April 2002).]

[Darklight]

Gom is a well known sweetie

[Darklight]

I'd recommend sticking with the amino acid thing for a while, if that's the path you choose to take. There's enough to learn about baselines, triggers and responses to keep you busy for a couple of months. Once you have worked out what is a reasonable constant state you're happy with then go for the beef-up on the brain muscle Otherwise you might be trying for too much at once.

[Guest Thelema]

oh hello! do people read what i write or not?

You may think that its easier to address neurotransmitter problems, but its not much help to you if neurotransmitters ARENT the problem (confusing the menu with the meal)

You could pump that bitch up with l-dopa and he still wouldnt be right.

And HELLO! Vasopressin is a 'smart drug'.

Phosphatydil serine also works to de-THC the brain,(its ALSO a 'smart drug'!) you can buy it from your local chemist(yes, i know its major action is with acetylcholine and the integrity of lipid membranes)

Its great that you seem to have shares in your local tyrosine factory, but its not the best way to beat post longterm pot use lethargy and dullness.In fact, its not really a way at all. And as I mentioned, im sure i remember reading some such smart drug even more apt...and ill be bothered to look for it if anyone shows the slightest bit of interest.

[Chemical Shaman]

Oh so your thelma.

Im very interested in de-thc-ing my brain. This "Phosphatydil serine" gizmo you speak of. Can I just walk into a chemist and buy it over the counter?

-Chemical Panties

Pulling Taffy: Jerkin off an uncut dick.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by Thelema:

oh hello! do people read what i write or not?

Are you desparate for attention too or something? Usually in fact yes, as they are well written and informative, but perhaps you've left your PMT tablets in your handbag?

You may think that its easier to address neurotransmitter problems, but its not much help to you if neurotransmitters ARENT the problem

Exactly what I said. It's easy. If you try it and it doesn't work, try something else.

And HELLO! Vasopressin is a 'smart drug'.

Not denying it for an instant. I was merely recommending a steady pace for change, watching the process, rather than proceeding in several directions at once. It wasn't an order. Perhaps you recongise the difference?

its not the best way to beat post longterm pot use lethargy and dullness.In fact, its not really a way at all.

Possibly not in your case. But in others I have worked with it *has* worked. The changes they experienced could also have been due to diet/ exercise/ not smoking pot/ paying attention to how they were feeling instead of dulling it with too much green. I won't deny that either. But amino acid use was undertaken by several ppl I know to assist with the process and they reported feeling a difference from amino acid use.

And as I mentioned, im sure i remember reading some such smart drug even more apt...and ill be bothered to look for it if anyone shows the slightest bit of interest.

How awfully kind of you it would be interesting to hear. Perhaps when you've condescended to enlighten us you could add to the pool of knowledge. Especially if you have first or secondhand experience with these products. Your observations would be valuable. Actually.

[Pablo]

thelma does have a point i think, increasing good stuff in your brain might help you to have fun but it also should work the otherway around too, yeah?

even if your taking all the right supplement but your just buming around the house all day your not going to be happy. on the other hand if you get out and and do something you love you will be happy even if your chem levels in your brain are fucked. (would having fun increase your seratonin and dopamine?)

[Darklight]

Originally posted by assassin:

(would having fun increase your seratonin and dopamine?)

A resounding yes!

[somnif]

Gomaos was not entirely off the mark when

he mentioned 1,4-BD.

(none of the following is recommended BTW)

In the days when its bigger brother, GHB,

was legal I used to use it for the dopamine

build up and release it would cause. So

while you would be euphorically drowsy

while it was in your system, on ceasing

the substance you would end up in the most

energetic states imaginable.

It was a useful drug for study periods.

You would take a reasonable dose so to have

a short deep sleep. Then on the dopamine

rebound study for a number of hours or so,

and then take a dose to sleep and let what

you learnt imprint itself on your longer

term memory. Repeat, rinse etc.

The sleep it induced really did seem to have

benefits as far as placing ideas into

medium term memory.

The drug does have negative effects, namely

the potential to completely fuck up your

dopamine levels and a tendancy for addiction

when use on a continual basis.

Anyway, just thinking back to the days before

October 1996 or there-abouts :-)

[This message has been edited by somnif (edited 21 April 2002).]

[coin]

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 23 April 2002).]

[Darklight]

Originally posted by coin:

i'm out of here...

I hope not... come baaaack! Please?

[woof woof woof]

DragonFyre...., You can concider buying those delicious lowfat nutritional shakes they sell at Nutrition/bodybuilding centers.

They are usually full of the essential and non essential aminos.

They can really help to increase your energy level.., but as mentioned by me and others before, conscider exersize.