devance Posted June 22, 2005 Theres much to say on how the world is not as it should be and the finger is pointed at God {in the context of actual existance}. So as a theory this thread is pointing the finger at a existant fallen angel as a theory, might be vaquely interesting. Temptation is a matter of personality growth. A different thing altogether. Homosexuality is a sensitive topic. But there is a big difference in a real homosexual and feelings and a state organized recruiting drive for young males under the guise of religion which has occurred historically. Or even worse child sacrafice. Just as offensive as if the government sponsered the same for girls under the guise of religion.. My own viewpoint is that real evil is like cannibilism, a very preditory and not very mysterious manupulatory way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr toodly Posted June 22, 2005 "God save us from stupid people" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr toodly Posted June 22, 2005 Hm. That isn't supposed to be an insult. It's St. Teresa's take on evil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2b Posted June 22, 2005 quote: Does Satan exist ? Only if you believe in god. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prophet Posted June 22, 2005 Scripturally speaking satan means the adversary of God. He is also referred to as the god of this world who decieves the world and enslaves every one into the bondage of sin and death. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darklight Posted June 22, 2005 2b:Does Satan exist ? **Hi!!** [wiggles fingers in an endearing way] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devance Posted June 22, 2005 God save us from the H-Bomb. But Revelations does mention such. Satan can repuded do miricles, which is call down lighting from above. A not direct matter but a thermonuke lighting affair might not get much comment with the panic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Happy Cadaver Posted June 22, 2005 Satan's image was modelled on the Pagan god, what's 'is name, the horny goat guy, was it Pan?. This helped eradicate the pagan religion back in the early/hey days of christianity, give your enemy's God an evil name among your followers. Much like they took over the Pagan festivals, I think Easter and Christmas from memory. Once u read about it u realise how fucken hopeless the Christians were in making their own holy days, though the Pagans probably borrowed theirs too from earlier religions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thelema Posted June 22, 2005 I Thought satan was mentioned in the new testament, which would place it far prior to the victimization of paganism. Not too sure if he's mentioned in the old testament. My take, is that man himself is the fallen angel, it's another take on the garden of eden story. that the development of scientific technology and market-driven self consciousness is the path away from the original source of god. The state of the infidel, basically. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ergoamide Posted June 22, 2005 The funny thing about satan is that satanist dont worship him. Satanists are in a sense aethiests they value knowledge of science, the church demonized them as this went directly against there beliefs and called it devil worship that is how satanists have become known as devil worshipers when in fact if applied in the true sense is wrong. I believe satan does exist but not in the way people would generally think, i belive he is just the collective term used for the bad energies in the world just as god could be used for the collective goodness in the worl however i am not a christian so dont mistake me for one. My view of the christian religion is a very bleak one, it lacks any origniality in essence its not much different form other religions except that it shows humans as the superior life form with nothing equal where as earlier religions were much more at harmony wiht nature and belived themselves more equal witt their suroundings. So i belive that in the christian sense that satan doe snot exist but in another sense used more so as not a being but a energy he does. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hagakure Posted June 22, 2005 i posted this site in that big religion thread http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm shows development of satan from a word that means adversary to this concept of evil does the bible ever descibe satans image to be someone with horns and devil hoofs? this could be the image we are left with after the demonising of paganism (and i guess that can be taken literally here). kinda like how father christmas is always red but thats only because coca cola made him red. does he exist? of course not people see in the news that exorcism of that nun in romania i think? they tied her to a crucifix for three days without water and gagged her. she died of dehydration and lack of oxygen and the priest in charge of the exorcism was in charge of proceedings at her funeral. she was probably schizophrenic or something. that shits fucked up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prophet Posted June 23, 2005 quote: Satan's image was modelled on the Pagan god, what's 'is name, the horny goat guy, was it Pan?. This helped eradicate the pagan religion back in the early/hey days of christianity, give your enemy's God an evil name among your followers. Much like they took over the Pagan festivals, I think Easter and Christmas from memory. Once u read about it u realise how fucken hopeless the Christians were in making their own holy days, though the Pagans probably borrowed theirs too from earlier religions. I'm sure the concept of satan existed a long time before trying to eradicate the pagans and before christianity since he is mentioned in the hebrew old testament and some of the oldest books of the bible. (for example the book of Job) The only pagan festival that is celebrated by alot of christians today is christmas and had to do with sunworshipping and winter solstice if i remember correctly. It was the roman catholic church who started the idea of celebrating christmas. It isn't mentioned anywhere in scripture and it is most definitely pagan. Christmas was not the birth date of Christ anyway. They have also paganised easter with all the eggs and rabbits etc and it has lost its true meaning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devance Posted June 23, 2005 The various partying basically on the different parts of the year certainly is natural and gives a chance of community spirit interaction and marks the different part of a yearly agricultural lifestyle. Planting, Growing, harvesting, resting giving a better feel to what a year is. More than descibed in the bible, but a actual commandment. Might be more important as not too many people are atuned to agricultural lifestyle except ethnobontanists and we don't have to have plenty or starve on the success or failure of a crop. Except in canada with cannibis. . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
occidentalis Posted June 23, 2005 Prophet: The only pagan festival that is celebrated by alot of christians today is christmas and had to do with sunworshipping and winter solstice if i remember correctly. It was the roman catholic church who started the idea of celebrating christmas. It isn't mentioned anywhere in scripture and it is most definitely pagan. Christmas was not the birth date of Christ anyway. They have also paganised easter with all the eggs and rabbits etc and it has lost its true meaning. Er.. no... Aostar is a pagan festival that has been christianised. It is the NH spring equinox! A time to celebrate the death and rebirth of the earth. Also celebrated as Pesach (passover) by Jews - remembering the slavery and release of the people from egypt. As I posted in the religion thread, Aostar was celebrated by the ancient sumerians as the time when the goddess Innana was killed and hung up on a hook for three days before being resurrected. Sound familiar? [ 23. June 2005, 09:26: Message edited by: creach ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prophet Posted June 23, 2005 Er..ok professor in theology.. quote: Aostar is a pagan festival that has been christianised. It is the NH spring equinox! A time to celebrate the death and rebirth of the earth. Also celebrated as Pesach (passover) by Jews - remembering the slavery and release of the people from egypt. So are you saying passover has pagan origins? because you just admitted youself that it is to remember the slavery and release from the people of egypt. Just because the Israelites happened to leave egypt at that time of year and you try and make that connection with no basis whatsoever. [ 23. June 2005, 11:27: Message edited by: Prophet ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted June 23, 2005 Finally, what I was waiting for, yay elitism. Prophet, "er ok professor in theology"?, how come you ask for so much botanical help and info on this forum? I don't know that many professors in biology and chemistry here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
occidentalis Posted June 23, 2005 Prophet:So are you saying passover has pagan origins? All religions have pagan origins. quote: because you just admitted youself that it is to remember the slavery and release from the people of egypt. Just because the Israelites happened to leave egypt at that time of year and you try and make that connection with no basis whatsoever. I don't think they did just happen to leave egypt at that time of year. Just like I don't think Jesus just happened to die and be resurrected at that time of year. Perhaps these events did historically occur, perhaps they did not - I'm not a theologian or a historian of any kind - but in any case they all commemorate the same thing: the coming from hardship and slavery into freedom and happiness, and most importantly coming from the darkness into the light, both literally and metaphorically. The spring equinox is a time to contemplate the harshness of winter that has just passed and celebrate the approaching summer. I have an interest in these matters and have taken the effort to research them primarily because I believe that pagan themes are still so entrenched in our culture that they are the best way to effect change. I think a return to celebration of natural cycles is one of the best ways to create an ethical relationship with the earth, which is what I think is required if we are to survive the next few hundred years without serious and difficult changes in living standards. Leave the insults at home. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thelema Posted June 23, 2005 quote: Just like I don't think Jesus just happened to die and be resurrected at that time of year. yeah, it would hardly have made sense if he didn't die at easter time. :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
occidentalis Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks Thelema Your intellectual weight is as usual a great contribution to the discussion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chemical Shaman Posted June 23, 2005 Back on the topic of whether or not satan exists... the fundamental flaw I see with the whole concept of satan is this (mind you i am but a simple man) Isn't GOD supposed to be the ALMIGHTY and ALL POWERFULL being? I mean like isn't he the dude that created EVERYTHING. Can somebody please explain to me exactly how satan is this massive threat to god and indeed humanity? I mean seeing as we are all god's children wouldn't god want to protect us from satan rather than use satan to 'test us out' as though he were gods own employee? Seems really fucken strange to me. And another thing, the way I understand it is this. In the very very very beginning. Before god had created like earth and shit and we were all just hanging out, chewing on clouds and playing cloud tennis or cloud badminton or whatever. Basically what happended is god needed to employ somebody to do the job of jesus yeah? So seeing as we are all gods children anyway he was all like "ok who wants to be jesus?" Out of all the bazzillions of souls hanging around in heaven playing cloud chess and cloud mini-golf TWO dudes put up their hands. One was satan, one was jesus. The primary diference between the two was Jesus wanted for everybody to have "free choice" so that people could make their own decisions in life and choose their own path whereas satan wanted the opposite, he wanted to force people to follow a certain path, not give them freedomn of choice etc. So we were given a choice, jesus or satan. If we chose jesus we get a stab at planet earth, a real-deal flesh and blood body and everything. If you chose satan you basically have to go to hell and hang out with satan and sit in a pool of fire all day long. Hell, i assume is some place that god MADE for satan to hang out, I mean he must have - he made everything. Anyways my whole point to the story is this: Out of all the fucken people up there playing fucken cloud xbox ONLY TWO PEOPLE APPLIED FOR THE JOB OF JESUS!?!? what the fuck? What a load of shit. If all you had to do to get a whole fucken place of your own (hell) and seemingly infinite power (catholics and christians are scared shitless of satan) am I really expected to believe that I wouldn't have applied for that job in a jiffy?? Bullshit, as if there wouldnt be a thousand cunts wanting to have what satan has, I mean the dude seems to have it pretty fucken good, it seems as though not even god has the balls to fuck with him, if he did then satan wouldn't be an issue. And another thing, you bet your fucken ass I would have applied for the job of jesus and I probably would have gotten it too!! Im heaps better looking then that cunt, I mean that beard is soooo 2000 years ago, and this whole water into wine thing pfffff big fucken deal. Turn psuedoephedrine into methamphetamine and THEN maybe i'll be impressed. I bet it was some fucken pansy shit too like chardonay or something. What a pussy. I apologise if all of the above highly intellectual topics have been discussed already. I didn't bother reading the thread, just the title. -Chemical Shaman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devance Posted June 24, 2005 The orion star direction was so improtant to the egytians that they build their citys in positions to depict such, that would have be very impressive if they had let it be known from the inner egytian mystery. But does that have anything to do with actual religion but is it just a achient form of celestial sky observation. [Planet X} Theres a big difference in a actual fallen angel and periodic celestial upheavals. Although manmade upheavals are coming up to the standard. The hebrews had to leave egyht because of payback when the egytians regained controll from what some believed was a hittites occupation for hundreds of years. A miltary occupation is more likely to trust some else than the rightly resentful dominated occupied. The reason for the harsh treatment of the hebrews, all very understandable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted June 24, 2005 I posted this link elsewhere in another religion thread, it may be more appropriate here. I used to print it out and give it to Christians at school. They didn't like me much Enjoy. It actually answers some of your questions CS... [ 28. August 2005, 15:37: Message edited by: apothecary ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devance Posted June 24, 2005 I have to admit chemical shaman such a spontaneous want is good to see. Only wish I could do something to satisfy as far as spirtiual which I can't. Without flogging the dead horse without no name into the desert I think you know the direction. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prophet Posted June 24, 2005 quote: Finally, what I was waiting for, yay elitism. Prophet, "er ok professor in theology"?, how come you ask for so much botanical help and info on this forum? I don't know that many professors in biology and chemistry here. Gee i'm glad i satisfied your eagerly awaited elitism. I don't see it as elitism, it is more non-appreciation of bashing others beliefs. [ 24. June 2005, 08:24: Message edited by: Prophet ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devance Posted June 25, 2005 dhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm Some seriously screws up information. a divine messenger sent by God as an adversary: bullet Numbers 22:22 & 32: God appears in a dream, telling Balaam to go with the princes of Moab to meet Balak. But when Balaam sets out the next morning on his donkey, God is angry with him for some reason, and sent an angel/messenger to kill him. The donkey saw the angel and took evasive actions. The angel was invisible to Balaam, who beat the animal. The donkey asked Balaam why he had beat her three times. Balaam, who doesn't seem to realize that a talking donkey is an unusual occurrence, replies. The angel then appears and explains that he has come as a satan to kill him. (translated as "one who opposes, "withstand," "adversary") Balaam was a sort of nonchristian mystic and was asked to curse the hebrews. After being warned he didn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
