I

[liquid wolf]

I am. That is all that is true in this world! any additions to the fact are only fancies of the mind spured on most of the time by the body.

[gomaos]

But how can you be so sure that you are?

After all you could be just imagining everything...?

[ramon]

I am pretty sure I am imagining everything.

But yet, I am

[ramon]

Actually not all that sure about the I part so

am

[Rev]

Yes we are 'am' in the eternal perfectness of the singular time, the tone of the infinite.

The realisation that it has all always existed now, the past and the future have all been done, repeated an infinite number of times and exist merely as one compact silver moment of Horrendous bliss that is consciousness

but then there is the other element

That which drives us forward

the devouring jaws of time reaching out in front of us. beckoning us to our grave.

decomposing meat sliding of the bones, cold and welcoming. so ugly and yet so loving, taking us back to the earth. like a paralysed fish in the crunching sticky jaws of an anemone, breathing but powerless to face those crushing jaws at the end of the one way journey.

and it is this long terror, that with habituation becomes a long whining sorrow, this pin point leak near the heart in the near perfect instant of now that drives us forward.

the devouring of life from the future is the driving force behind time sucking us forward.

Its quite a thought espeially knowing that everything is running exactly as planned, everything in the universe working perfectly as it does and has always done. And nothing you can possibly do can change the course of fate

so we accept the bliss and cope with the sorrow realising that we are completely and utterley powerless to change anything. That is not to say we are ineffectual - we all have an effect - but in that role, being back inside the moving universe and being inconsistent with the ability to realise the full consequences of our actions, we do just as anything else in the universe does - exactly what it is meant to

the only thing that gives us some reference point, some last clasp at control is having the ability to know this - to be aware it is happenning. That is the singular graspable truth

that we are 'am' in every changing minute

[ 04. September 2004, 13:16: Message edited by: reville ]

[mescalito]

We all must be pondering these dark thoughts as we ready ourselves for re-birth back into the spring LOL

Coincidently I watched 2 movies this week:

21 grams and the butterfly-effect both highly recommended viewing for those who ponder.

21grams is how much weight we lose at the instant of death apparently and the butterfly-effect will keep you glued to the set :cool:

[Salviador]

Id say death and taxes are the only things we can be sure of

[ramon]

the devouring of life from the future is the driving force behind time sucking us forward.

don't understand what you mean by this.

[Rev]

[ 06. September 2004, 06:40: Message edited by: reville ]

[mescalito]

Looks like Rev hit anti-matter LOL

[contemplative]

I am certain that I am... But im also certain that I am Not

[Dubius]

Cognito ergo sum -it's been done before!

[liquid wolf]

Ramon i believe the I part is the only part that is relevant. As that refers to being as does am, for something to be as an "am" there must first be an I. This is the what lies befor the first step is taken or the idea of there being a first step is conceieved to wards there being anything else.

Rev you mentioned singular time,

then you went on to descride your thoughts with referance to time i.e.That which drives us forward

the devouring jaws of time reaching out in front of us. beckoning us to our grave.

decomposing meat sliding of the bones, cold and welcoming.

That is a given we are already dead as soon as we are born! it is only the mind that just as the world exists fashioning it's own design through fear of or thoughts about death and other things whatever they may be.

When the mind is set on auto piolt to know that it is transitory as is everything experiancable the attachment goes. Then in turn the world, things in it, ideas and beyond become I and not "mine or not mine".

[ 17. September 2004, 17:26: Message edited by: liquid wolf ]

[Northern Gnome]

"I" the particle "am" the wave of eternity.

[spaced]

Ich bin?

"Life is a disease with a poor prognosis, for it inevitably ends in death"

[Northern Gnome]

Ich bin das - Sri Nisargadatta

Aller, den ich sehe, ist ein Teil von mir

 

quote:

---

Schwester-Stern, wie kann es sein, daß ich Sie bin und Sie ich sind? Sie glühte, Sie ist größer, als Sie wissen, sind Sie jeder Platz dort sollen gehen. Sie haben einen Körper, ist dieses zutreffend, aber Blick auf, was nach innen von Ihnen ist!

---

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inke...artner_id=28296

[ 21. September 2004, 07:25: Message edited by: Orb ]

[gomaos]

Aller, den ich sehe, ist ein Teil von mir

in proper german:

alles was ich sehe ist ein Teil von mir

(and the more it goes around in my head the more it works it's magic)

[ 21. September 2004, 07:49: Message edited by: gomaos ]

[ramon]

The problem I have with I

is that it implies a singular I

Hence if you think of yourself as I

you are reinforcing a false concept

[Rev]

Ramon:

The problem I have with I

is that it implies a singular I

Hence if you think of yourself as I

you are reinforcing a false concept

I dont know if i agree with that Ramon.

I dont see I as necessarily singular

I know its used that way in language but when youre considering I as self

I dont see myself as singular or if so its a duality where i may be singular but im always a coexisting plural entity. Im plural in outwardly concentric zones with and into others which is always in flux

My I is central, as the primary executive function,but to that merges as definition seamlessly outwards to all affected and my environment.

My instinct of self preservation is extended to others and my environment through concepts like Family, Friend, home, mine, ours, Kindness, Fairness,appreciation, revenge, manners,culture.

As i say its in flux but if i was to define myself i would find it impossible to satisfactorily do so in absence of these and other plural concepts

[liquid wolf]

I agree reville.

It's that pesky mind that creates the seperation from all things and makes the I a personal thing.

Sri Nisargadata - I am that is a really good book for anyone that is interseted in the I, Whilst in india recently it was constantly with me.

My father's house there is near a pretty famous ashram Ramanashram. The ashram was founded around a most peacefull man named Ramana Maharshi.

There are 3 short books that you can get online written by him or transcribed from talks with him. They're at http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/

"i am that" "spiritual instruction" "self inquiery"

Worth a look.

[ramon]

Totally agree with the expanded sense of "self or I" as described. In my more enlightened momments I see things this way as well.

However this is definately not the way I understood the concepts of "self and I" when I was young. So now when I use these concepts my understanding of them ranges from their original meaning to the more inclusive meanings.

What I bemoan is that the is not a more inclusive type of I which is learnt when you are young as a concept.

eg II seems to be a much better lable for the more inclusive concept of self. I think that even the fact that the lable of I ( the letter i ) is the shortest possible name for a concept makes it seem more singular and exclusive

[t st tantra]

Ramon:

the devouring of life from the future is the driving force behind time sucking us forward.

don't understand what you mean by this.

this is a beatific vision i have had.

i was being struck in the forehead by a continuous beam from the future.

this was the perfection of my future self drawing me forward to become that being!

hope this simple explanation will do!

t s t .

[ramon]

I am insane

[Rev]

t st tantra:

this is a beatific vision i have had.

i was being struck in the forehead by a continuous beam from the future.

sounds pretty close to what i saw, in elements of structure at least if not my minds eye interpretation or memory recollection - especially the forehead and "continuous beam"

Though it seemed more like a continuous ladder at first then morphing to a sawblades, teeth, tendrils, grappling hooks and morphing again to geometry. In a classic DMT style even though it was LSD not DMT.

Running out from a third eye into a wormhole to the future, which strangely was in sort of black and white or sepia not colour - maybe to say it is lit by bright moonlight.

What was clear though was that it is one way, impartial and always moving

And the space is certainly inhabited

I spent a few minutes there before it all became too intense and drew back to find another living entity to ground myself.

It was in that space i chanced upon any realisations about my personal relationships between Time and I ive tried to express.

dont you wish you could record and share such vision more completely

My perspective was however one of drawing to completion, which is just another angle on a type of perfection perhaps. This might have been the difference that made it a bit scary.

[toby]

I am a novelty for life to observe it's flow with, and take joy from my joy and amusement from my folly.