When to shoot a cop

[Teljkon]

dfsdfsfsddf

Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[random]

Rather offensive thread that seems to promote violence if you ask me.

[ballzac]

You don't think it's okay for people to defend themselves meeka?

To be blunt, if you have the right to do “A,” it means that if someone tries to STOP you from doing “A”–even if he has a badge and a politician’s scribble (“law”) on his side–you have the right to use whatever amount of force is necessary to resist that person.

I don't think this is so much about shooting cops as it is about rights. I think using the example of killing is simply an extreme that is used to prove the point. I don't think it is advocating killing cops. But it IS saying that killings cops is not immoral if your rights are being violated by those cops. I have to agree with that 100%. If someone breaks into my house, ties me up, puts me in their car and takes me to their basement where they keep me locked up for ten years, I would be applauded for killing that person to regain my freedom... unless they have a badge. It was made very clear in the piece of writing that for self preservation it is not usually a good idea to actually exercise this ethical right to kill a cop in self defense, just that this right exists if we have any rights at all.

[wazzad]

Rather offensive thread that seems to promote violence if you ask me.

 

I completely agree with you Meeka, it is rather disturbing that anyone would consider this as information, it needs to be removed by the moderators before this forum is labelled as 'promoting cop killing'

You don't think it's okay for people to defend themselves meeka?

I don't think this is so much about shooting cops as it is about rights. I think using the example of killing is simply an extreme that is used to prove the point. I don't think it is advocating killing cops. But it IS saying that killings cops is not immoral if your rights are being violated by those cops. I have to agree with that 100%. If someone breaks into my house, ties me up, puts me in their car and takes me to their basement where they keep me locked up for ten years, I would be applauded for killing that person to regain my freedom... unless they have a badge. It was made very clear in the piece of writing that for self preservation it is not usually a good idea to actually exercise this ethical right to kill a cop in self defense, just that this right exists if we have any rights at all.

 

This article is NOT about defense! "Basic logic dictates that you either have an obligation to LET “law enforcers” have their way with you, or you have the right to STOP them from doing so, which will almost always require killing them. "

That is a ridiculous statement, I have friends in law enforcement and by all means some cops are arrogant constitution burning bastards but alot of them are just doing their job (enforcing the law), articles like this is what breaks down the ethics in our society by trying to make out that such an awful heartless act could be justified.

the only time you should take ANYONE'S life weather it be a cop, a nurse or anyone should be when your life is in immediate danger and you have no choice but to discharge your weapon to save your self or your family.

[ballzac]

the only time you should take ANYONE'S life weather it be a cop, a nurse or anyone should be when your life is in immediate danger and you have no choice but to discharge your weapon to save your self or your family.

 

So if someone was raping your daughter, but you knew he wasn't actually going to kill her, you would let him finish rather than kill him if you had the chance?

Going to prison for a crime you didn't commit, or for a crime that shouldn't be a crime, is an atrocity, and people suffer all sorts of things by being sent to prison. I personally think that under the rarest of circumstances would it actually be beneficial to kill a police officer. Unless they're literally about to kill you, you're only going to make things worse for yourself. Nevertheless, I think there are many, many circumstances under which it is at worst an excusable wrong. Having a badge does not give a person more right to life than others. All I'm saying is the same rules apply to everyone.

Edited July 11, 2011 by ballzac

[FancyPants]

Unlawful arrest and imprisonment even by an officer of the law is still illegal and if proven guilty, the officer is punished by the same laws protecting the rest of us. If we're talking about having a constituional right to do something, then an officer of the law takes the right away from you within the parameters of the same law, then there is no breach by the officer - case in point the right to bear arms in the USA. These officers have gone through lawful rights to use that power; it isn't the same as your average citizen Joe taking that right away from you because he hasn't gone through lawful procedures to attain that power. If there is moral issue of what a given government decrees is lawful then that's an entirely different matter; and one to protest/petition against if you feel strongly enough for.

Ie a crooked cop abusing their power is a criminal too, and subject to the same criminal laws as any other criminal.

Edited July 11, 2011 by FancyPants

[ballzac]

If a Jew in Nazi Germany had the opportunity to kill a Gestapo officer to avoid being taken to a death camp, and then managed to escape to a friendly country, I would say that it was justified. Or should he have just signed a petition? What about in places where peaceful protest is illegal. What do you do then? Just because there is a system in place, doesn't mean there is any ethical responsibility to work within the system if the system is flawed. Of course, if you're going to work 'outside' of the system, it's a good idea to make sure you've thought through the ethics of your position very carefully. But the same goes for working within the system. Just because you're following orders and what you're doing is legal in your country, doesn't mean that it is ethically justifiable.

[faustus]

i fantasise about shooting (male) cops in the face all the time. take the gun out of his holster, a la requiem for a dream, but instead of playing piggy in the middle, we play one round of "shoot piggy in the face".

then that little chtcnt faustus' conscience rocks up unannounced and is all upside his head like "listen, cnt, quit hating on po po, he on your side. like when you had to file that false mobile phone insurance claim ... or when you were in high school and got burned for a few hundred bucks by the local deadshit drug dealer and when you called him back he dared you to do something about it... po po had your motherfuckin back. so why you wanna hate on mr police, faustus?"

cop killers should get life in jail without parole. throw away the key. it's the only way these criminals are going to learn a lesson. let's call jonesy or lawsy, they'll show us the way.

alas my friends, no self-respecting thread on shooting cops can go without some bone thugs. so without further ado my wiggaz, shotz to the double glock

[FancyPants]

If a Jew in Nazi Germany had the opportunity to kill a Gestapo officer to avoid being taken to a death camp, and then managed to escape to a friendly country, I would say that it was justified. Or should he have just signed a petition? What about in places where peaceful protest is illegal. What do you do then? Just because there is a system in place, doesn't mean there is any ethical responsibility to work within the system if the system is flawed. Of course, if you're going to work 'outside' of the system, it's a good idea to make sure you've thought through the ethics of your position very carefully. But the same goes for working within the system. Just because you're following orders and what you're doing is legal in your country, doesn't mean that it is ethically justifiable.

 

In that particular scenario then hell yes I'd also shoot an officer. However I believe that's an extreme case.

The next time you hear of a police officer being killed “in the line of duty,” take a moment to consider the very real possibility that maybe in that case, the “law enforcer” was the bad guy and the “cop killer” was the good guy. As it happens, that has been the case more often than not throughout human history

IMHO the average case of an officer being killed in the line of duty, is a far cry from atrocities committed in the name of genocidal governments. The two aren't the same, and of course the latter has a far bigger devastation and impact. The recent case of the Nerang robbery in which the officer was shot point blank and was later taken off life support; how can that be compared in any way to the atrocities in Cambodia, NAZI germany, Algeria et al? Did the Nerang robber feel like he had a justifiable excuse to take firearms to a public place in order to steal? He might in his own mind have felt like he was victimised into taking such course of action and thus felt it "right" to defend himself by shooting the attending officer in the head?

[ballzac]

Absolutely you're right that, say, a bank robber has no justification in killing a police officer who tries to stop him. So if you happen to be robbing a bank, it is unethical to shoot a police officer. Well, it seems a little bit superfluous to say that, considering you shouldn't be robbing the bank in the first place. It's when your not doing anything wrong (legal or not) and are willfully threatened with serious consequences by an officer of the law, that I think it is justified.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to go out and shoot a cop who looks at me the wrong way. Even if I was stitched up by a crooked cop for a crime I didn't commit I think I'd be in two minds about it. And I think people who go around killing cops are unlikely to be really nice people in practice, regardless of the theoretical ethics of it.

I think the article is pretty poorly written and possibly not written with the best intentions. Nevertheless, I agree with the main sentiments.

[watertrade]

This thread took a little break while it was discussed if it should be deleted or should continue. It would have been easier to delete the thread. After much thought and discussion it is allowed to stay for the time being.

I think its clear to all of us that the content in the original link is posted by a very emotional person who wants to share his extremist views of the world. The link goes to copblock.org website which seems to be just a website fishing for as much negative police material as possible. And this sets the context of the link

What I didn’t like about the link is that it seemed to incite and encourage violence towards police.

This thread can continue if the discussion stays on track in a mature and respectful way.

Any discussion that encourages, incites,celebrates any violence towards police will close the thread. and if needed the shit stirrers will be moderated.

anyone wanting to further discuss this or needs clarification can PM me.

Thanks

Watertrade

[wazzad]

So if someone was raping your daughter, but you knew he wasn't actually going to kill her, you would let him finish rather than kill him if you had the chance?

 

I see your point but honestly that circumstance would never happen. . ...

eg; I see that my 'daughter' is being raped

I attempt to stop the culprit

He either stops and submits to me

or

attempts to defend himself where I would consider it a threat on my life.

I just think people act out without thinking about possible alternatives, I worked in a hospital as security for a long time and not once did I inflict severe damage on someone unless it was absolutely necessary even when threatened with a weapon.

If i can fend off a knife wielding maniac with just a chair and my bare hands then why would i need to take a life unless is was absolutely a must. . . . I dont respect people but i do respect life.

[ballzac]

I see your point but honestly that circumstance would never happen. . ...

 

Consider it a thought experiment. I was just trying to point out that there may be potential counter-examples.

I just think people act out without thinking about possible alternatives, I worked in a hospital as security for a long time and not once did I inflict severe damage on someone unless it was absolutely necessary even when threatened with a weapon.

If i can fend off a knife wielding maniac with just a chair and my bare hands then why would i need to take a life unless is was absolutely a must. . . . I dont respect people but i do respect life.

 

I absolutely agree with that you should avoid killing a person if you can. But remember that in many parts of the world, capture by the police can mean loss of life, in others, permanent loss of freedom. When it's a serial rapist or murderer, then they deserve the consequences, but globally, more often than not its minor drug trafficking or possession. In some countries it is simply the colour of your skin, or your religion. A lot of people think that is deserving of the death penalty. I don't, and if someone killed an arresting officer in order to escape, I would see that as self defense.

In that particular scenario then hell yes I'd also shoot an officer. However I believe that's an extreme case.

Regardless of the context of the article, I think it brought up some very good points, and one of those is that it is very easy to question regimes in other societies, but we often accept the flaws of our own much more readily. You clearly agree with me that under some circumstances it is okay to kill a police officer, even if that police officer is only doing their job. I don't see a problem with exploring the extent to which this is applicable, or at what point it becomes just.

The views expressed in this article are not too dissimilar to those expressed by Thomas Hobbes, in terms of the right of an individual to protect his own life at all costs.

[Distracted]

The advice in this thread didn't work for David Koresh.

[wazzad]

I absolutely agree with that you should avoid killing a person if you can. But remember that in many parts of the world, capture by the police can mean loss of life, in others, permanent loss of freedom. When it's a serial rapist or murderer, then they deserve the consequences, but globally, more often than not its minor drug trafficking or possession. In some countries it is simply the colour of your skin, or your religion. A lot of people think that is deserving of the death penalty. I don't, and if someone killed an arresting officer in order to escape, I would see that as self defense.

 

Well that is a good point, I could not honestly answer that if I was in another country where my freedom was at jeopardy however I think that the article is still way to extreme, perhaps this thread should be renamed to "when to fight a cop" as it pertains to alot more cases then the current title ever should.

[ballzac]

I think that the article is still way to extreme, perhaps this thread should be renamed to "when to fight a cop" as it pertains to alot more cases then the current title ever should.

 

Yeah, but a point that was made in the article is that you don't get very far fighting a cop, it's pretty much all or nothing.

I get why this has bothered people, but I think from a philosophical perspective it is worth actually thinking about and discussing this stuff.

The advice in this thread didn't work for David Koresh.

David Koresh didn't take the advice. That is, the bit about it not being in your best interests. The question isn't whether it 'works' or not, but whether, under some circumstances, it could potentially be ethical to kill a police officer.

[Slybacon]

"coppa's coppa's punch em in the face, Coppa's coppa's, If your a coppa then your Gheeeeyyyyyy"

[watertrade]

"coppa's coppa's punch em in the face, Coppa's coppa's, If your a coppa then your Gheeeeyyyyyy"

 

are these song lyrics sly?

[Evil Genius]

I really dislike the vibe that this thread is sending out! Sure, the relationship between ethnobanists and police wasnt always perfect and there are many cops that are a disgrace for their jobs. But im pretty sure that police is as disgusted by those black sheeps as we are and hence wont hesitate to weed them out as good as it gets. Personally, I have had very few bad experiences with policemen. They were always helpful when someone broke into my appartment again or when some crazy ex-bf tried to kill me and shit. Whatever reason it was; i rarely had bad experiences with them and i personally think it has to do with the fact that i tried to treat everyone with respect and without any prejudice. I also dont think that many of them would give a shit about someone growing plants. When its about plant laws, cops are pretty much on the bottom of the food chain because they simply have to do their job and follow orders. Australian Law Enforcement could easily get a very bad message reading this thread and i want to point out that this thread doesnt necessarily exhibits the opinion of our Team and most of our members. Sure, if you break the law and order illegal stuff, it might get you in trouble. But i wouldnt go so far to blame the cops for that...they are a paid instition of the government and nothing else. If theres someone to blame, blame the politicians who make the laws. If you know your rights and dont act weird in front of police, im sure you´ll be fine. If you act like a nervous criminal in front of a randomly by-passing officer, dont be surprised if he treats you like one. So i really dont get all that police-hate vibe some people are onto but we´ll allow this thread to go on if people make sure not to violate basic human rights in it. And with that i mean that there will be no public appeal to kill cops. Period...thats the stuff i dont want to see here. bye Eg

Edited July 13, 2011 by Evil Genius

[Psylo]

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/30years/stories/s1286179.htm

[incognito]

i need to find one of those "cops are tops" stickers for my car. meh they have a job to do. ive found in my many unfortunate dealings that if u treat them with respect they will generally treat u with respect. you know the risks you take when ur breaking the law, so carrying on like a jerk isnt gonna make ur matter any better. was good back in the 90's often cops would let u off if they knew u where not of any harm, and generally treated them with respect. i got let of some rediculous situations by a kindly constable letting of a young person being foolish, as they would have done at my then age. back then u would get a stern talking to, till he sussed out u wherent a little cunt. but i guess i was raised to respect the cops, i see em doing really good things at the pcyc nowadays. i know cops who actually give a fuck about people and their community, if we are gonna have cops we should have good cops.

edit- a large part of me really wants those guns with the scope mounted. they r soooooooo bad.iwould be mad fun just to shoot targets.

all i can say is...why? must be a custom job? they wouldnt stay accurate to the scope for long i bet.

Edited July 13, 2011 by incognito

[Distracted]

I didn't share my views in my last post which I should've.

Cops are like everybody else and to be perfectly frank I trust no-one. I get just as paranoid being alone with a cop who carries a gun as I do with a random stranger who's carrying a gun. People in power terrify me and i'm terrified one day i'm gonna get pulled over by someone in a uniform who's not actually an officer who is going to arrest me. I've had plenty of scenarios run through my head where i'm being chased by officers who are threatening me with harm while i'm on the phone ringing 000 begging for help.

I find it really depressing that I feel I can't even trust those who are meant to protect me. Is it all my fault, or is there something else at play here?

Perceptions of power... the joke's on whoever thinks they are more powerful than me though they don't know i'm invulnerable

[incognito]

paranoia

[FancyPants]

Consider it a thought experiment. I was just trying to point out that there may be potential counter-examples.

I absolutely agree with that you should avoid killing a person if you can. But remember that in many parts of the world, capture by the police can mean loss of life, in others, permanent loss of freedom. When it's a serial rapist or murderer, then they deserve the consequences, but globally, more often than not its minor drug trafficking or possession. In some countries it is simply the colour of your skin, or your religion. A lot of people think that is deserving of the death penalty. I don't, and if someone killed an arresting officer in order to escape, I would see that as self defense.

Regardless of the context of the article, I think it brought up some very good points, and one of those is that it is very easy to question regimes in other societies, but we often accept the flaws of our own much more readily. You clearly agree with me that under some circumstances it is okay to kill a police officer, even if that police officer is only doing their job. I don't see a problem with exploring the extent to which this is applicable, or at what point it becomes just.

The views expressed in this article are not too dissimilar to those expressed by Thomas Hobbes, in terms of the right of an individual to protect his own life at all costs.

 

Well sure I agree with some circumstances. However the one in which you said about if I were - for example - in a country which put to death drug smugglers, and I brought in a qualifiable amount of said drug, and were about to be arrested; then no I wouldn't try and kill the officer. I made my bed and I would lie in it. Circumstantially, it's my moral opinion that if genocide were to be legalised in Australia a la NAZI Germany, and I knew my capture would mean death, then I would most likely fight for my life. However, saying and actually doing such a thing wouldn't be something I could even really contemplate until I were in that situation. Normally, I don't actually ever want to have to kill anybody else if it were my own life which depended on it. But to kill for those I love/family, would be a different scenario. I'm just not sure I could compromise my own souls' sake of killing another human, regardless of the reason.

Arguing about the point in which is becomes just is kind of moot. Justifying one death could tantamount to justifying any deaths in some people's eyes. I don't believe in the death penalty even for the most horriffic crimes. Not only because it just lowers ourselves to their level, but a - to be honest - sadistic side of me doesn't want their death to be relatively quick and painless. Ahh human nature, filled with shades of grey.

[Teljkon]

sdfsfsdfsd

Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon