Answers???

[slayertat]

Hi I have just sort of stumbled upon this ethnobotany stuff as i was interested about trying ayahuasca. I suffer from depression and PTSD and have tried all the anti-depressant medication , finaly ending up on Parnate(maoi) which has worked the best for me. I was actually quite shocked to find out that the caapi plant is also an maoi and that maois seem to play a major role in some ethno experiences. so I have a few questions I hope someone may be able to answer for me, im sorry if these topics have been extensively covered before.As im also aware of legal iplications in this country, all my Questions are hypothetical only!

Q1, does the caapi vine produce hallucinations/visons on its own?

Q2, i have been on Parnate for ages and have never had any sort of trippy feeling, does pharm maoi work the same way as that in the caapi plant?

Q3, Is it safe to use a ayahuasca brew if already on pharm maoi, bearing in mind that i am already aware of maoi diet?

Q4, I see that a DMT is usually added to maoi, is that what produces the visions/hallucinations, if so what is the best to use?

Q5, Can caapi vine be used as a natural alternative to pharm maois in treating depression?

Q6, What plants are safe to use to have a visionary experience while on maois?

Q7, What sort of Paranoia levels are induced while using entheogens? I have used cannabis, acid and mushrooms in the past and found that cannabis makes me really really paranoid.

I thank anybody who can help me in advance , have a good day

[apothecary]

1. Yes

2. It may be a different type of MAOI, e.g. there are MAO-A inhibitors and MAO-B inhibitors. B. caapi, P. harmala are MAO-A (as far as I know).

3. Probably not.

4. DMT is added sometimes, but does not need to be, the yage brew can consist just of B. caapi.

5. I asked a similar question a while ago regarding P. harmala. The answer was yes, very similar to moloclembide or something (which is anotehr MAOI you may be familiar with).

6. Generally you should be careful with combining other chemicals with MAO inhibitors, but any amine will be potentiated by MAOI (tryptamines, etc).

7. You may feel like you're dying, you may be very sick, and there will most likely also be anxiety. Get used to it, it helps you grow if you can just let go and ride the wave

Good luck. Plenty more info in the hallowed vaults of erowid.org

[slayertat]

thanks heaps i checked out erowid site and parnate is an maoi-a same as b.caapi

[Prophet]

I don't think it would be a good idea to combine caapi with other prescription MAOI's, it might be dangerous. Maybe you could use caapi in small non-hallucinogenic doses (unless you want to hallucinate). Someone else might be able to give you the relevant info/dosage because i have no experience with the plant.

peace

[Darklight]

apothecary:

6. Generally you should be careful with combining other chemicals with MAO inhibitors, but any amine will be potentiated by MAOI (tryptamines, etc).

Potentiated inasmuch as its made more powerful and can be life threatening if you are careless or don't know exactly what you're doing.

Please stay safe. Make sure you have an experienced sitter with you at all times, one who is reliable and you can trust with any debriefing issues that may arise over the next few days as a result, as well as someone who is OK to handle possible medical emergencies, answer the door or anything else that might intefere with your process. It might sound silly and panicky to begin with, but its not until something fucks up that you appreciate the value of a good sitter ( and they're rare.. )

Ah yeah, and make sure you do this somewhere it is legal.

If, in your legal location, you were to come across any tryptamines to add to your MAOI diet, grab as much of the one batch as you can, be they plant or non plant sources. That way you can slowly ramp up your tryptamine supplementation over several sessions, and be reasonably sure that you're dose it what you think it is. Plants differ in their concentrations and ratios of components seasonally and between individuals and growing locations and conditions. Chems differ between batches at the street/ retail level in many cases.

And enjoy the multiple and teeming new worlds unpeeling before your very eyes. Take something with you. Bring something back.

[Darklight]

Ah yeah, I forgot.

Someone I know very well is taking Aurorix for depression. As they're in a location where its legal to do so, they enjoy the odd stint into the next dimension or six, and were horribly nervous about combining comestible items with the MAOI

Some terribly cautious ramping of doses over many sessions resulted in them concluding that they needed additional MAOI support in order to enjoy a full experience, it seemed as though the prescribed dose was fully effective theraputically and didn't lead to any inhibition that would synergise with, for example, tryptamines.

They plan to supplement their Aurorix with exactly the same MAOI at 50% extra dose next time and will let me know how it goes. They're a bit concerned about MAOI/MAOI interactions when using two separate MAOIs- not sure how reasonable that is but using more of the same MAOI is a good safe starting point.

In the meantime the experiences have been a tad disappointing. Not a huge letdown inasmuch as they have allowed for their experiments *not* to work, and done something else fun those evenings. But they've been safe. There's plenty of time to play around if you have the whole of your life in front of you and aren't fucked up in hospital, shit, it isn't like the world is going to run out of drugs now is it? You can afford to be careful, and you'll still learn something in the process.

[Torsten]

This could be an interesting alternative to moclobemide in pharmahuasca combos!! Thanks for pointing it out.

A therapeutic dose of MAO inhibitor is usually at quite a bit less than full inhibition. So a good therapeutic dose should only be maybe half of a full MAOI dose. The problems with parnate appears to be it's effect on the heart. You really don't want to go into cardiac crisis during an aya trip

While the combo of parnate and dmt is probably about as unsafe/safe as harmine and dmt, it is impossible to predict all reactions and interactions. if you decide to experiment with this please make sure to keep an accurate log of what you are doing BEFORE you start. Make sure you are within less than 5 minutes from a hospital emergency ward, and don't do it on friday afternoon at 5 pm in the middle of a city (ie make sure your sitter can get help in little time). Also make sure your sitter knows CPR really well. I am not saying anything dangerous is likely to happen, but at the time when things get hairy you do not want to have to worry about such issues. You must be able to rely on your sitter calling an ambulance if needed and your sitter must have full written notes of what you did. Your sitter needs to be competent at deciding what is a freak out and what is a physical crisis!! You don't want to go tripping in an emergency ward if it can be avoided

Q7 - with ayahuasca you don't usually have time to get paranoid. Things happen very fast and you are kept busy with the sensory overload. Not at all like pot or LSD.

[Tryptameanie]

It will depend on what dose of the Parnate you're taking. Try taking DMT (or plant containing it) orally on it's own, you may not need additional MAO inhibition for it to be orally active. There is LOTS of stuff about Australian DMT sources and extractions on this site, www.ethnobotany-australia.net and others.

While on the Parnate I would avoid taking a high dose of harmaline alkoloids(the MAOI bit of ayahuasca brews), that is a dose which would be hallucinogenic on it's own. However if you find you Parnate dose is insufficient to allow oral activity of DMT you could try cautiously increasing from a very small pre-dose of harmaline until you get the desired effects. Smoking an extract will allow more control over dose. Syrian Rue seed is a much cheaper and more easily available source of harmaline than the ayahuasca vine. Search here for more info.

Alternatively try carefully increasing your dose of Parnate.

 

quote:

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A therapeutic dose of MAO inhibitor is usually at quite a bit less than full inhibition. So a good therapeutic dose should only be maybe half of a full MAOI dose.

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I read a review that indicated that MAO-A inhibitors usually are only therapeutically active (as ADs)at above 85% full inhibition. Don't know if higher than this is required for DMT oral activity. I have heard of 150mg (ie half the usual starting daily dose) of moclobemide making DMT effective orally in one subject.

Be aware that Parnate is, unlike moclobemide, a "suicide inhibitor" and as such it takes a very long time for it's effects to dissapear after you stop taking it. Leave at least a week after a single dose and two weeks after a period of continuous administration before taking anything which may interact (if you don't want it to ).

Oh,this is not related to tryptamines or plant drugs, but stay well away from the ketamine-like hallucinogenic/dissociative/anaesthetic drug dextromethorphan (DXM, found in some cough syrups). Bad interaction, not just potentiation. Same goes for the opioid (painkiller) pethidine (AKA meperidine or Demerol).

[Benzito]

Tryptameanie: You know of any interactions with DXM and Ritalin? (Methylphenidate)

I can't find anything suggesting it, and my physchiatrist doesn't seem to think there would be any problems. I take 60mg per day, under prescription. For ADHD.

Anyways, I've had a horrible reaction in the past, to a theraputic dose of DXM. Used as a cough suppressant.

It was weirder than any K-hole, and quite painful, physically.

Any ideas anyone?

I believe some people actually have a genetic defect that prevents the proper absorption of DXM? Does anyone know any more about that?

[slayertat]

ok so if i was to stop my parnate for a couple of weeks then take correct dosage of b.caapi and viridis i may experience trip/visions/hallucinations or alternatively stay on parnate and just take viridis or similar? using small dosages until desired effect is required. also is it legal to just grow these plants as ornamental plants?

[Torsten]

slayer, you should NOT stop your parnate without your docs approval!!!!!

if you want to try aya then forget about the harmaline part. It is not important. It is actually mostly the harmine and other related alkaloids that cuase the visions in dmt-free ayahuasca. So simply regard the parnate as the harmaline substitute.

Combining harmaline (or other harmala alkaoids) with parnate just increases an extra layer of risk.

if you want visions then your most straight forward approach would be to take a dtm containing substance for the visons and the parnate as the MAOI.

You may also be misunderstanding the significance of harmaline's visionary effects. They are negligible. Harmaline is primarily the MAOI. In some cultures or ceremonies where the vine is consumed without dmt additive, the trips are designed to be more meditative and introspective. Ask Piers Gibbon (member here) about this effect.

Really, if you want visions then aim for dmt activation and forget about harmaline.

[slayertat]

thanks to all who posted. its very interesting stuff. im on an extemely high dose of parnate as i have a high tolerance level as i am a recovering addict (1yr 6 months in rehab) ive always been interested in aya as i heard of using it to meet your spirit guide and get a deep spiritual perspective of your life. something one could definitly use at this time in ones life. but most of the experiance reports ive read seem more akin to when acid goes pear shaped when youve taken just a few too many little cardboard monsters and the unholy fear takes hold. been a long time since i played with psycho drugs anyway.

i would also like to say all this has been just for curiosity sake and i have no intentions of doing any illegal activities. ive been clean and sober for 2 and a half years now and even spent a new years eve in amsterdam without using so ive no desire to fuck that up. peace to all

[apothecary]

slayertat, a pear shaped acid trip is where your problems are brought to the surface, and you are confronted with them.

What you do from there influences how the rest of it goes. If you let go and accept them, things may turn for the better during the trip and almost certainly afterwards.

If you deny them, if you try and hold on, your trip will turn into a manifestation of that.

As far as I know, an aya trip is similar to that, except you get no choice. You don't get to decide on whether to let go or hold on. This isn't nescessarily a bad thing. If you want to see more, I recommend heading to the aya section on erowid and reading as many experience reports as you can.

[slayertat]

ive read all the reports on erowid, you are so right!! the more i think about it i see that perhaps that fear is also related to the fear and shame of seeing and accepting those things about yourself that are not very nice and being humble enough to take it onboard and bring about the neccesary changes in your life. moving forward never back... many thanks i would love to give it a try but i doubt i would be able to find someone exprienced to take me throgh it as i doubt it would be a good idea to mess around by myself blindly

[Rev]

any recent research on tetrahydroharmine yet?

i know we are restricted in Aus due to legality but surely its been tried alone in decent doses o/s

Its been years since shulgin urged further investigation

[Torsten]

the problem with acid is that it is smooth and long. I mean, the trip does not have huge waves and plateaus and it takes ages to end. Ayahuasca isn't like that. Time shrinks on ayahuasca, so even a long trip doesn't appear quite as long as an equivalent acid trip. It is also too buy to get stuck in roundabouts. And it's these mental roundabouts that cause the deep disturbances sometimes caused by LSD. These are simply not know from ayahuasca!!

The constant surges of aya keep things moving (literally - mentally and physcially) and are much better at examining a greater part of your subconscious mind. LSD is better at confronting a small number of significant details of the subconscious, but never the huge volumes aya accesses.

[slayertat]

true i remember on lsd getting totally stuck and freaked out on one particular negative thing and finding it hard and sometimes impossible to move past it . countless hours looking for somewhere safe but never finding it. but i often found these (bad trips ) only occured when i wasnt out and about exploring but rather just sitting at a house or similar that wasnt home?! so from this would it be safe to assume that the seeting and mood would play a significant role in what direction an experiance on DMT might take?

[Torsten]

dmt and aya are the only psychedelics where the mood going into it is not very significant. The experiences at the beginning of the trip will shape much of your trip (or not) and all in all it's pretty much unpredictable from beginning to end. Very unlike LSD.

People apply the same 'am I ready' concept to both drugs, but really one is never prepared for aya and one can also never do any preparation for it. People often wait years to do aya and then the next day they say "geez, I might as well have done that 2 years ago cos there was no way I was ever going to be ready for that".

Aya is a big pool with no shallow end.... somehow you always manage to swim back to the edge.

LSD is like the ocean. You always have to swim back the way you came or you will get lost.

btw, the worst thing 'sitters' can do when they are dealing with someone freaking out on acid is to talk them down on the same subject. Even if you do that for only 5 minutes, to the tripper this is a lifetime. The best thing is to distract them - preferably with something happy (like doing something funny and totally unexpected that involves them), but sometimes a small fright followed by a cuddle can work too. Anything that derails their roundabout train of thought is better than to harp on about the thing that bothers them. Most of the time they won't find their way back to the same roundabout.

[Stonehenge]

If depression is the problem, no need to take all those horrible pharmaceuticals with the terrible side effects. There is a completely natural remedy that works right away and lasts a long time. It's salvia divinorum. Oh, but you guys can't try it because you are in Australia, too bad. If you live in other places, just smoke a little bit of good leaf or 5x salvia. There is no need to trip on it, less than tripping doses work quite well. About every couple weeks I feel the need and puff a little bowl. It works right away like a charm. Of course none of you would think of using it but in your dreams, give it a go and see how it works for you.

Stoney