Gunter Posted March 19, 2011 several forms of trichocereus have bent or curved spines, some more so than others this peculiar and particular trait is fascinating several forms of bridgesii and peruvianus seem to have the bent spine trait where the spine bends when it is nearly done growing, often toward the base of the plant. this is a very interesting trait that may hold clues about the taxonomic relation of forms some plants have many curved spines, others have only one or two here or there i'd like to examine photographs of these traits and the forms associated with it are curved spines and bent spines common on the cacti in your collection? check out the downward curved spines on these plants from ecuador, called pachanoi: http://largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/pedro/pachanoi_Ecuador.html http://largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/pedro/pachanoi_Quito.html this trait is common to many but not all selections of what is called pachanoi, bridgesii and peruvianus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CβL Posted March 19, 2011 /\ Hah! What's this guy up to? But back on topic. Another dimension is the stiffness of the spines. I've seen some very limp spines that although short, if they were long would've bent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted March 19, 2011 in some of the cases short spines are bent, as are long ones, and on other cases the spines are curved in all directions(up down, left right etc) it seems as if some plasticity during spine growth is involved in the trait(s) some forms/clones lack the trait entirely isn't that an amazing plant? I believe that bridgesii represent a population ancestral to material like this, but perhaps alleles were introduced to the population more recently? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted March 20, 2011 sometimes i see plants like yowie and psycho0 which often have mainly only 2 downward pointing spines. grown in my conditions they grow with normal full set of spines. so i assume it is some variation in growing conditions. any thoughts about this? t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted March 20, 2011 growth conditions clearly affect spine traits, no doubt some plants appear to have the downward spines in most conditions, others less so some have only a few on an entire plant, others have them at nearly every areole in the case of curved spines it is rather consistent, like with the validus, taquimbalensis, werdermannianus types or the terscheckii types etc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spunwhirllin Posted March 20, 2011 Cool topic Archaea. I'm not so sure that environmental variables will influence the downward nature of spination,this seems to be purely genetic,although genetics are what they are due to enviromental conditions,go figure. Good to see you back around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted March 20, 2011 yes it seems that no environmental condition will bring the bent spine trait out in plants that do not have the gene/alleles for it bridgesii is well known for it, but some specific peruvianus selections and pachanoi selections (all the same/single species to me) also share the trait all forms with this trait seem active, the cuzco types for example typically lack this trait, though they often have curved spines Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tripsis Posted March 20, 2011 I've got a few plants I'll photograph and post here when I get the time and it stops raining. T. werdermannianus and T. atacamensis var. pasacana are two species I have which have curved spines as expected. I have one T. peruvianus "Icaro" which is very unusual however. One every third or fourth areole one spines is sharply bent at the end, so that it essentially hooks back around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
san p Posted March 21, 2011 this plant grows single long spines with age,half of which curl upwards,pic 2 shows this whats your thoughts on this one archaea? was sold as t.cuzco because the seller believes twin downward pointing spines is a cuzco trait,where as you said cuzco lack this trait. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted March 21, 2011 it does not look akin to the cuzco material i am familiar with, but i have seen photographs of cuzco material with some downward spines with the bent spine trait to them i sued the word typical because there are exceptions and that plant may be one of them, the common cuzconoid material associated with the collection number KK242 does seem to lack the bent spine trait in general, but clearly some forms collected in the region and some forms circulating in horticulture are exceptions to this rule, as well as to the other typical aspects including a lack of activity, whereas some forms of the cuzco material are clearly inactive for the purposes of entheogenic use others are said to be of activity typical for San Pedro cacti. Some variation seems to exist in regard to the cuzcoensis name and i am by no means familiar with all forms allied to the name. it looks like a great plant!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted March 24, 2011 Another great Tricho thread Aussie bridgesii "Tig" shows this two dramatically downwards bent spines trait. After reading tst comment that it shows up in the famous "PsychoO" I thought it might well be a confusion and be one and the same plant. Also of note is Archaea's comment on the bent spine trait and potency. A consistent pair or maybe couple more thick & curved spines is present with all the 'wendermanianus' as far as I have seen . They often pop up on their own phase-shifted timing, and long after the basic spines of the areole have been formed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tripsis Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Here's a few of mine with curved or bent spines. Trichocereus peruvianus "Icaro" T. werdermannianus T. atacamensis var. pasacana T. bridgesii monstrose. Note that the spines are not bent through force or broken, they have grown in that way. "T. macrogonus" (I wouldn't actually consider this a macrogonus) Edited March 27, 2011 by tripsis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mira Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) Another TBM cl. A with a more terminally curved spine: Edited March 28, 2011 by mira Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted March 28, 2011 this trait seems to be conserved across many plants and makes me feel that it would be prominent in the ancestral form(S) while less so in decedents this makes me assume that validus type allies may be ancestral to the peruvianoid/macrogonoid and pachanoid forms including bridgesii Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted March 29, 2011 Don't have a clue what you mean ^^^ - maybe because I'm drunk. TIG [maybe Psycho] my biggest seed grown wendermanianus biggest wendermanianus [boosted by grafting] seed grown terscheckii Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted March 30, 2011 this trait seems to be conserved across many plants and makes me feel that it would be prominent in the ancestral form(S) while less so in decedents this makes me assume that validus type allies may be ancestral to the peruvianoid/macrogonoid and pachanoid forms including bridgesii Definition of DECEDENT : a deceased person —used chiefly in law http://www.merriam-w...onary/decedents Don't have a clue what you mean ^^^ - maybe because I'm drunk. Drink much? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Philocacti Posted April 5, 2011 Could it be that some strain that have straight spines, get these curved spines because of the heat effect on the spines?? I have a T. peruvianus/cuszco and a bridgesiiXSS02 that have only one spine, that seems to burned from the heat of the sun. T. peruvianus/cuszco spine bridgesiiXSS02 spine Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted April 5, 2011 that looks like mechanical damage to me here are some examples of curved spines in the genus trichocereus: http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_chilensis_lightsp.jpg http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_coquimbanus.jpg http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_giganteus.jpg http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_tacaquirensis.jpg http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_taquimbalensis.jpg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Philocacti Posted April 5, 2011 well the one curve on the bridgesiiXSS02 can be a mechanical damage (although i doubt that) because it was recently transplanted, the other one could have only been heat related or else there is some other critter on my roof that did this damage. The links you posted show cacti with this genetic trait, but what im aiming for is sometimes these curves are made (maybe) because of environmental effects, like heat. Here is an example of a bridgesii with curved spines because it was very close to light bulb here is another one maybe im wrong but i think these grafts lost this trait after i took them away from the light bulb, i will have to check on that though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted April 5, 2011 time will tell, update when it is more clear Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted April 13, 2011 this is what I believe is either mechanical or enviromental bending Share this post Link to post Share on other sites