Refusing to answer police questioning

[drgibbon]

Ofcourse they dont always suceed in giving you a fine, but this is their sole purpose, as with any commercial enterprise it is about the sale, I always say "no sale", everyone else says "gee, I guess I'll take it, probably the best deal".

 

Interesting, but still, wouldn't you have to have broken the law?

I might be ignorant, but I thought the police represented the government, what's the commercial entity you're talking about? Not saying they don't do things for revenue building, but the public sector is not the same as private, right?

[Magicdirt]

Any government is a commercial enterprise, that has a budget that needs to be balanced.

On one hand you have all the fat parasites with their snouts in the trough milking the country dry and to balance it out we need taxes, fines and police.

The time of them being here to protect us is long gone, if it ever really existed to begin with. The Rothbury riots proved that they're not here for us, when police turned up and shot at striking workers.

There has also been many other times police have been used as hired thugs to break strikes.

Police are just another form of tax collector trying to make a buck out of you and keep the revenue coming in.

[ref1ect1ons]

^In the US there are a number of cases, those interested can look them up, where it has been held that the police have NO duty to protect you. I just wonder what the police are thinking when they're shooting at someone who could literally be their brother, for the elites who are not likely their brothers.

@Dr.Gibbon, When you say "break the law", you must understand that there are two forms of law, commercial law and common law. You have to consent to commercial laws, they require a contract, the government just assumes that you consent to most of it's policies, it is your duty to decline the contract (there is alot more to it, I have simplified greatly). To bring a common law case against you, there must be a real person, not commercial entity, a soveriegn man or woman who has been injured or is at a loss because of your action. To bring a commercial case against you, you have to have entered a contract, and then have broken that contract (ie, borken the rules or gone against some policy).

This is a very simple, and possibly misdirected explanation, this is not one of my greatest interest and so my understanding is taking time to develop.

The public sector was brought by people with money long ago, it's smart, it keeps them making money ...the most intelligent investment they ever made. Do you really believe they wouldn't do this because of some moral obligation?

I think in the 70's someone was quoted as saying it would cost just several millions to buy the whole American government, every police department and school, every pen. I cant find it, but the public sector could have been 'theoretically' bought and sold cheap, it may have been in The Secret of Oz. Since I have no source, use your own discretion.

Edited October 13, 2010 by ref1ect1ons

[Sheather]

I really have to look into the freeman techniques and legal matters mentioned here. It would make life a little more relaxed knowing you have a good response to the harrassment from those darn cops.

I was having a conversation on a train with a mate and he swore. Cop comes up and threatens to issue a ticket for public nuisance. The bastard must have been behind on his quota. Thing is, three other cops were standing right there with him and didn't give a shit. Just seemed amused when we became visibly uncomfortable.

[drgibbon]

Any government is a commercial enterprise, that has a budget that needs to be balanced.

On one hand you have all the fat parasites with their snouts in the trough milking the country dry and to balance it out we need taxes, fines and police.

The time of them being here to protect us is long gone, if it ever really existed to begin with. The Rothbury riots proved that they're not here for us, when police turned up and shot at striking workers.

There has also been many other times police have been used as hired thugs to break strikes.

Police are just another form of tax collector trying to make a buck out of you and keep the revenue coming in.

 

I partially agree with what you're saying, but I think you've grossly exaggerated the situation. You really believe we just need taxes because politicians are milking the country??? We use taxes to fund public services, such as building/maintaining roads, healthcare, public schools/libraries, centrelink etc. If the government were solely interested in making money (i.e. a commercial entity), why would they provide services such as Centrelink? Why would there be medicare, why would there be public transport? Why would the government provide various services which don't actually make money? If they were truly a commercial entity, they'd shut down all unprofitable ventures. The public sector is not the private sector. I realise they may at times be in bed with each other, but to state that public sector = private sector in Australia is just incorrect.

Show me a business that literally gives away money to the entire nation (Centrelink). Show me a business that pays for all the nation's students to go to university, with the repayments only being indexed for inflation (where if you never make much money you NEVER have to repay it, where there is no interest charged, where there is zero profit motive). Show me a business that exists simply to let people read books, use the Internet for free, and hire out DVDs and music CDs (public library). There must be many more examples. You only need to give this thing a little bit of thought, the government in Australia–as a whole–simply does not function in the same manner as a commercial entity.

@Dr.Gibbon, When you say "break the law", you must understand that there are two forms of law, commercial law and common law. You have to consent to commercial laws, they require a contract, the government just assumes that you consent to most of it's policies, it is your duty to decline the contract (there is alot more to it, I have simplified greatly). To bring a common law case against you, there must be a real person, not commercial entity, a soveriegn man or woman who has been injured or is at a loss because of your action.

This sounds a rather flaky. Ok, so some guy is racing around the street at 180km/hr, doesn't have a drivers license, but he hasn't hurt a soul (yet). The cops pull this guy over, and he gives them the sovereign man line. Now under your definition of common law, there's no case against him. He hasn't hurt anyone, he doesn't intend to hurt anyone, and he doesn't consent to the "contract" of the road laws, so off he goes. Can't be correct. The cops can simultaneously exist to generate revenue for their department and to maintain a measure of peace and safety within society. Why does it have to be one or the other?

^In the US there are a number of cases, those interested can look them up, where it has been held that the police have NO duty to protect you. I just wonder what the police are thinking when they're shooting at someone who could literally be their brother, for the elites who are not likely their brothers.

[...]

I think in the 70's someone was quoted as saying it would cost just several millions to buy the whole American government, every police department and school, every pen. I cant find it, but the public sector could have been 'theoretically' bought and sold cheap, it may have been in The Secret of Oz. Since I have no source, use your own discretion.

We don't live in America folks! You can't just read stuff about how the American system works, and go, "yup, just the same here". In regards to the public sector being bought wholesale, see the above points. Why do these public services still exist? I'm not saying there's no corruption, whenever there's money involved there's going to be greed for sure, but that's hardly the same thing as being a business outright.

Edited October 13, 2010 by drgibbon

[drgibbon]

I really have to look into the freeman techniques and legal matters mentioned here. It would make life a little more relaxed knowing you have a good response to the harrassment from those darn cops.

I triple guarantee you that your life will not be more relaxed by telling the cops to get stuffed

Are you all really being regularly harrassed for no reason by the police in Australia? I don't watch much TV or read the papers, so I'm just going on what I see, but to tell the truth I don't see a hell of a lot out there. Haven't talked to any police for yonks, haven't seen any cops bothering anyone actually for quite some time. Then again, I don't go out on Saturday nights (and I'm sure there's a fair bit of action there with alcohol being rather influential), and I hardly ever drive (bus or bike mostly).

I don't doubt that it does happen (and has happened to me at certain times), but from reading this thread you'd think we're being savagely oppressed!

Edited October 13, 2010 by drgibbon

[Sheather]

I partially agree with what you're saying, but I think you've grossly exaggerated the situation. You really believe we just need taxes because politicians are milking the country? We use taxes to fund public services, such as building/maintaining roads, healthcare, public schools/libraries, centrelink etc. If the government were solely interested in making money (i.e. a commercial entity), why would they provide services such as Centrelink?

I'm not saying that this is so, but a reason for this could be that the common people would never support a government that does not give some freebies, and that kind of thing is more of a "How much can we get away with not giving?"

Have you tried getting centrelink? I've had to jump through hoops for weeks(actually, months) to get a simple "no"

Show me a business that pays for all the nation's students to go to university, with the repayments only being indexed for inflation

As opposed to never requiring any money from the students, as in countries that are less "well off" than Australia. Eg. Argentina, Chile and Brazil. There are private universities there, but public tuition is free.

Now under your definition of common law, there's no case against him.

This is correct. Though you need not use the sovereign man line on the cop. If you take the matter to court and act in the proper way the case will be dismissed. Whether this is because the judge doesn't have time to deal with your crap or because it actually works I am not sure.

[synchromesh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwZhU6uv9sA

Interesting, but still, wouldn't you have to have broken the law?

\/

Anyway, going back to your original statement, it is untrue that Australians can only be fined or arrested if they've done something wrong. And I present you with the following two cases which prove this:
Activist Padriac 'Paddy' Gibson lands payout after APEC arrest
Police ordered to pay $55,000 for wrongful arrest

[Sheather]

I triple guarantee you that your life will not be more relaxed by telling the cops to get stuffed

I don't mean that as in I'd be more relaxed telling them to piss off, just that I'd be more relaxed in general knowing there was something I could use in case of that kind of harrassment. I've become really tense around police. I don't feel safe when they're around (strange hmm?)

[Sheather]

Good video Synchromesh.

[ref1ect1ons]

You really believe we just need taxes because politicians are milking the country??? We use taxes to fund public services, such as building/maintaining roads, healthcare, public schools/libraries, centrelink etc.

The Federal government uses a fractional reserve system,this system creates debt attached to every dollar it issues, meaning that there is more debt than can be paid back. The government is bankrupt and in debt, it takes out loans from a private corporation (the aussie fed reserve) and builds schools etc, but is in in debt to a private corporation wholly. It is 'choosing' to be bankrupt to a private corporation obviously, some taxes may be direct here and there, much serves the debt on the loans, but it is a charade to hide the fact that a private corp owns and controls our economy (an economy can be contolled by the amount of money in circulation, as the Secret of Oz also explains).

The secret of Oz doco is free on Youtube, it explains how this system works, he goes on to say that it is also the australian system.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D22TlYA8F2E

I felt great after tell the police to get f'ed, they could have jailed me, but I would not take a swearing fine. And it was in the middle of no-where very late at night and I was sober. I was calm but i admit i was annoyed and went too far. It is enough to know your rights and stand up for yourself, not because we have rights, but we know we should be treated right and treat them right..

Edited October 13, 2010 by ref1ect1ons

[synchromesh]

I'm not saying that this is so, but a reason for this could be that the common people would never support a government that does not give some freebies, and that kind of thing is more of a "How much can we get away with not giving?"

Have you tried getting centrelink? I've had to jump through hoops for weeks(actually, months) to get a simple "no"

It's as simple as this: If the government was nothing more than a corporation, and it looked like nothing more than a corporation, then the people would overthrow it.

[drgibbon]

Interesting video on the admiralty law thing, but do you put automatic faith in the information in that video just because it appeals to what you'd like to be true? We're talking about the law, wouldn't you need to talk to some lawyers at least?

I've been on Centrelink a few times yea, it's a pain in the arse, but the difficulty more or less comes from the bureaucracy, not because the company controlling Centrelink is conspiring to keep people out to cut their losses. Failing to get Centrelink usually means you failed the means test, meaning your parents have too many assets/income (or you do).

Of course I'm not saying no one has ever been wrongly imprisoned, no one has ever been wrongly convicted, but the level of paranoia about the police in this thread seems totally unwarranted to me.

Sheather: Your feeling unsafe around police would be pretty natural if you have a negative view of them. That doesn't mean they are all actually dangerous thugs out to get you. Of course, your personal experiences might tell you otherwise, and I can't argue with that at all.

Edited October 13, 2010 by drgibbon

[drgibbon]

It's as simple as this: If the government was nothing more than a corporation, and it looked like nothing more than a corporation, then the people would overthrow it.

 

Right, so the government is controlled by a corporation, that allows the government to act as a government so no one finds out??

[synchromesh]

Right, so the government is controlled by a corporation, that allows the government to act as a government so no one finds out??

It's as simple as this: If the government was nothing more than a corporation, and it looked like nothing more than a corporation, then the people would overthrow it.

[ref1ect1ons]

It is more than just a corp because some ppl really belive in it, but I am talking from one side of my knowing, I actually understand the world to be completely neutral, we make it what we make it, so no, I dont believe any of this as the only way to see it, I just find this viewpoint useful for demostrating/expressing certain points. So yeah centrelink really does have a public interest because there are people there who have a public interest and make it a public... thing. But another way to see it is yeah, the laws only have power because we believe in them. Iy really doesnt matter that at our time we have common and commercial law, we can make them what they should be by just ignoring them and moving on with life.

I dont truly believe in anything i say or think, I always look for the silence, too far .

Edited October 13, 2010 by ref1ect1ons

[drgibbon]

This is not completely related, but I like to think there's patterns in the world in how things happen, so I'd like to relate this little story of mine.

A few years back I was involved in a community, I don't want to say exactly what, but it revolved around some activity. Now, there was the 'old guard' who used to run everything, and were responsible for pretty much everything that happened in the community. The new breed were coming through the ranks, and were talking about a lot of problems in this community, in-fighting, people dropping out, people complaining of injustice, corruption on the boards (involving money), all kinds of stuff. The new breed (of which I was a part of), took on a sort of revolutionary air, we had all these great ideas, if only we could get rid of the old guard, they were the ones holding us back and were responsible for everything that was wrong! We knew how to fix it and we were going to make everything better. The path we went down was essentially one of division. Us vs Them. We felt we had a righteous cause, but our method was basically fueled by negativity, mistrust, and hatred.

Well, in the end we won. The old boys disappeared, and there was a new dawn. Fast forward two years. Can you guess what happened? Nothing. Nothing changed, in fact, maybe things got slightly worse. The old boys had to come back and take up the reigns again because the new guys didn't do a thing. We all just disappeared. It was almost like all we really wanted was a fight. Once the fight was won, there was nothing left to fight for. The only thing left was hard work. But... we didn't sign up for that..

Well, that's my rambling story, but what I say the world needs is god damn good vibes from people all around. All that stuff about how the world is controlled really marginalises people, it makes people feel like they've got no power and they're at the mercy of some terrible force that they must struggle to fight. We're all in this together, we need people doing real life things to help (enviro people, engineer people, medical people, artists, whatever), but every single person can help by just trying to make each day better for themselves and everyone they come into contact with. Categorising all police as brutes and coming at them always with negativity in your interactions (advocating spitting at them etc) really does a disservice to our community.

I think it's useful to keep in mind that however misguided people in positions of power may be, they are also human, they live on the same planet as us, and ultimately we all want to live somewhere good.

[synchromesh]

Interesting video on the admiralty law thing, but do you put automatic faith in the information in that video just because it appeals to what you'd like to be true? We're talking about the law, wouldn't you need to talk to some lawyers at least?

Being that you seem to love asking questions so much, here's one for you: Have you answered any of the video's questions yet?

Of course I'm not saying no one has ever been wrongly imprisoned, no one has ever been wrongly convicted, but the level of paranoia about the police in this thread seems totally unwarranted to me.

No, you're not saying those things, but you are continuing to act like they're true... If you want to know what I think is unwarranted, it is your patronizing attitude throughout this entire thread.

[Sheather]

Interesting video on the admiralty law thing, but do you put automatic faith in the information in that video just because it appeals to what you'd like to be true? We're talking about the law, wouldn't you need to talk to some lawyers at least?

I don't think the video expects you to take it at face value. It's more of a gateway, an eye opener so you can do some more research and find out for yourself. It outlines the basics and piques your curiosity no?

Edited October 13, 2010 by Sheather

[drgibbon]

If you want to know what I think is unwarranted, it is your patronizing attitude throughout this entire thread.

 

Fair call, maybe I am coming across holier than thou. I just think that we really are lucky to live in Australia (compared to a lot of other places), and it kind of upsets me when people talk as if we've got nothing here (the government ONLY wants to rip you off, the cops ONLY want to harm you, etc, etc).

[FancyPants]

This is not completely related, but I like to think there's patterns in the world in how things happen, so I'd like to relate this little story of mine.

A few years back I was involved in a community, I don't want to say exactly what, but it revolved around some activity. Now, there was the 'old guard' who used to run everything, and were responsible for pretty much everything that happened in the community. The new breed were coming through the ranks, and were talking about a lot of problems in this community, in-fighting, people dropping out, people complaining of injustice, corruption on the boards (involving money), all kinds of stuff. The new breed (of which I was a part of), took on a sort of revolutionary air, we had all these great ideas, if only we could get rid of the old guard, they were the ones holding us back and were responsible for everything that was wrong! We knew how to fix it and we were going to make everything better. The path we went down was essentially one of division. Us vs Them. We felt we had a righteous cause, but our method was basically fueled by negativity, mistrust, and hatred.

Well, in the end we won. The old boys disappeared, and there was a new dawn. Fast forward two years. Can you guess what happened? Nothing. Nothing changed, in fact, maybe things got slightly worse. The old boys had to come back and take up the reigns again because the new guys didn't do a thing. We all just disappeared. It was almost like all we really wanted was a fight. Once the fight was won, there was nothing left to fight for. The only thing left was hard work. But... we didn't sign up for that..

Well, that's my rambling story, but what I say the world needs is god damn good vibes from people all around. All that stuff about how the world is controlled really marginalises people, it makes people feel like they've got no power and they're at the mercy of some terrible force that they must struggle to fight. We're all in this together, we need people doing real life things to help (enviro people, engineer people, medical people, artists, whatever), but every single person can help by just trying to make each day better for themselves and everyone they come into contact with. Categorising all police as brutes and coming at them always with negativity in your interactions (advocating spitting at them etc) really does a disservice to our community.

I think it's useful to keep in mind that however misguided people in positions of power may be, they are also human, they live on the same planet as us, and ultimately we all want to live somewhere good.

 

I like this story and it represents to me a very human and realistic view and personal experience.

No, you're not saying those things, but you are continuing to act like they're true... If you want to know what I think is unwarranted, it is your patronizing attitude throughout this entire thread.

 

Actually I personally think it's you who's being more patronising when confronted with an opposing opinion. I find your use of the emoticon to be a good case in point. Unless you're being tongue-in-cheek (in which case I apologise for the misunderstanding).

Then again, wtf do I know? I've never personally been harrassed by police. Nor have I ever been harrassed by "junky druggos" who also tend to cop a lot of generalisations by the few who've had bad experiences with a bad minority of people.

Edited October 14, 2010 by FancyPants

[ref1ect1ons]

it kind of upsets me when people talk as if we've got nothing here (the government ONLY wants to rip you off, the cops ONLY want to harm you, etc, etc).

I dont think anyone here has said this (that the government ONLY wants to...), I even prefaced with "i dont truly believe in anything" so I dont know how much more I can say to help you see that I am NOT saying that. I even said that this viewpoint is only useful to show certain things and to achieve certain things.

I really think this discussion is limited until you research further what we are saying, these questions are in the 'newbie' FAQ of many freeman forums, I think I have been patient with my viewpoint and I am prepared to let you go on believing what you believe, but I cant carry on with this discussion if you completely refuse to review any info I have provided to answer the questions you ask. It becomes static and cant move forward, i have no questions or challenges for you, but am prepared to review anything which may contradict my viewpoint but you have yet to provide anything other than your opinion.

Reminds me if the 911 argument where ppl refuse to seek out the paper on nano-thermite then call me a loon for having researched it myself, if you dont want to actually research your viewpoints then dont expect me to want to prove and research anything for you.

Edited October 14, 2010 by ref1ect1ons

[Distracted]

As you said earlier, cops are only humans, they're just like any other human whether it's a mechanic, a bus driver, a junkie, a lawyer or gardener. Some will rip you off and lie to you, some won't. The thing that changes is the implied level of power someone has over someone else. 1/10 of mechanics will rip you off and you'll pay twice what you should, just as 1/10 of the police force will deliberately lie in order to do their job 'more efficiently'. We're all just employees under the thumb of our employer and we'll all lie and cheat if we think we can get away with it as long as it's for a 'just cause'.

Guys... just remember why the thread was created though... I just don't want to have to answer police questions the same as I don't want to hear the life story of the bakery owner when I want to buy a loaf of bread, i'm non-social and I shouldn't be persecuted for that.

[Rabaelthazar]

Ref1ections, I normally try to stay neutral on this forum, but I have to speak up and say that I think you're giving really bad advice. I'm not contradicting your viewpoint. I respect those people knowledgeable enough to stand up for their rights as a freeman of the land. My knowledge of common law and acting as a freeman is limited. You have clearly done more research than I have.

However, going the freeman route with police without a comprehensive knowledge of your rights, and a complete understanding of the correct wording to use/avoid is a recipe for disaster. Each of your posts in this thread suggest that it is very easy for anybody to refuse to acknowledge commercial law and get away with it. There was a video in the "Freeman of the land" thread of a man obviously trained in law arguing common law in court. I'd suggest that anyone thinking of using common law as their reason for refusing to cooperate with police watch this video and listen to the language this gentleman uses, especially in response to questions from the judge and police, and ask yourself whether you'd have the mental resources to be able to tackle any situation thrown at you without slipping up.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it, Ref1ections, as I don't know you personally. Just please try to be careful offering legal advice to people without disclaimers. I'd hate to see Distracted spend a night in the lock-up after pissing the police off by telling them to fuck off.

.

.

.

Distracted, as far as avoiding conversations with police due to just not feeling sociable.... that's a tough one. Personally, I feel the more cooperative you can be the sooner they'll let you go on your way. If you've done nothing wrong, the truth shall set you free. Good luck with it.

[synchromesh]

I dont have HIV and i havnt touched a pick in ages but i really dont mind the police thinking that if its going to stop them from violently harassing me.

 

Sounds like a good deal to me.

I like this story and it represents to me a very human and realistic view and personal experience.

I'm not a great fan personally. Because I mean, what's the point of it? That humanity is inherently nasty, yet we can still trust humans like Julia Gillard to govern us better than we could ourselves?

Actually I personally think it's you who's being more patronising when confronted with an opposing opinion. I find your use of the emoticon to be a good case in point. Unless you're being tongue-in-cheek (in which case I apologise for the misunderstanding).

Really? When was the last time I acted like the OP was a smartarse? Or that people who treasure their rights are just paranoid authority haters?

Edited October 14, 2010 by synchromesh