Terence McKenna

[Foton]

I'm compelled to post this thread after thinking about Mutants words on Terence McKenna in the Psychedelic to break a loop thread here is the link.

What are your thoughts on Terence McKenna and his works, words and thoughts ?

Below are Mutants words taken from the psychedelic break a loop thread, and may serve for discussion.

By having these substances illegal they prevent us from using them properly. So each psychedelic enthousiast [and this is definately encouraged or at least tolerated in ethno communities] might think that Leary and McKenna or other messiahs were the coolest guys to immitate and parrot, while the darker aspects of psych use are more rarely discussed voluntarily. I was reading his outrageous chapters on alcohol in food the the gods and it actually makes sense. McKenna created a sect, a kind of religion and I realise I have not grasped the extent of the propaganda, but it's definately there, I can spot it better now. So McKenna says alcohol is the demon? Everyone following his revelations says the same. Fuck you, alcohol rules!

...it's propably McKenna first that brought up this football fan mentality in psychedelic communities. I don't think Leary was so specific. So maybe, psychedelic theism is not McKennas creation, but 'tryptamine chauvinism' is sure his invations.

Later I shall post some of my own thoughts on Terence. So again, have you read his books, heard his lectures ?

[faustus]

i've read a few of mckenna's books and listened to several of his lectures. i think he's extremely clever with words and has a charisma about him, but i feel he was completely full of shit. well, maybe 95% full of shit.

i agree with mutant. i can't help but feel that many people take his ideas as gospel just because he said it, and people in the psychedelic community so desperately need a "psychedelic pin up boy" for lack of a better description.

IMHO, his brother dennis has done much more for psychedelics than terence, yet he'll forever live in his brother's shadow.

[drugo]

He is a genius, and so is his brother. Sure, some (but not that much) of his scientific evidence has been contested but underlying the few positivist discrepancies in his oeuvre lay a deeper wisdom, a moral wisdom. He's ability to transmit this wisdom through advanced poetics and public speaking is one of the greatest inspirations that the late modern psychedelic movement has experienced.

It is common for people to dislike the stars, stereotypes and archetypal icons of their subcultural niches. By doing this they attempt to elevate themselves above the ordinary-typical and into the transcendent, the authentic. [read with nasaley adolescent accent] "I'm a real psychedelic researcher/adventurer/head. Terence McKenna (only because he is famous) is crap, have you read Benny Shannon, Krippner, Grof, Metzner, if not then you don't know shit". Bullshit! These type of identity games are played out in all subcultures by those with insecure egos. Obsessive reggae fans will often talk shit on Bob Marley to validate a "true" position as a reggae fan.

Those who are not puppeted by interpersonal-ego games often embrace the stars of their subculture as these stars tend to illuminate.

Edited May 16, 2010 by telepathogen

[holymountain]

mckenna is a true visionary. no doubt.

the fact that mutant is proclaiming 'alcohol rules' makes a pretty strong case as to why he doesn't like mckenna. alcohol has done a lot of damage to our society. car accidents, domestic violence, suicide etc. men don't take psychedelics and beat their wives. alcohol does not rule. sorry dude.

those that dislike mckenna often miss the sense of humour he displays. he is aware that some of his ideas make him sound like a messianic loon. and he gladly admits it.

many people base thier ideas on him just from stuff they have read from the internet or condensed summaries of his theories. to really get a feel for the type guy he was you should listen to his talks. then his real knowledge, sense of humour and wisdom can be fully appreciated. his theories are pretty far out but when you get the feel for the whole of everything he talks about they begin to make sense.

listening to some of his talks is psychedelic in itself. it just keeps unfolding and unfolding and when it's finished you feel like you've really been taken on a trip.

forgive me if i'm getting too personal but i know faustus kind of well and know that he is interested in tryptamines from a more skeptical scientific side of things and prefers the more dissociative out look.

i also know mutant has not had breakthrough doses of tryptamines and thinks 'alcohol rules'.

i'm not judging or dissing but it's obvious mckenna is not really going to float your boats in those cases.

it's obvious why i like mckenna. i'm sure i fit snuggly into the cliched mckenna follower profile and i'm fine with that. i guess there are those that have similar experiences to the ones mckenna talks about and therefore find his talks and ideas very useful and informative. i don't think that makes us psychedelic theists or guilty of tryptamine chauvenism. you know what you know or what you've experienced and your own experience is all you've ever really got. not everything he says is correct. i don't hold him as the law maker or authority. but lets face it the guy had an insane amount of knowledge when it came to psychedelics. he was one of the first to bring a lot of this information out of the jungles and into people's minds.

we take for granted a lot of the knowledge that is out there. mckenna was one of the few getting it out there in the 70's and 80s. He and his brother were the ones that pioneered the home cultivation of cubensis for god's sake. For that reason alone we should all be kissing his ass for his contribution.

Edited May 16, 2010 by holymountain

[mutant]

This will probably become a very interesting thread

First of all, let me do follow up in McKenna, talk about how I see him and his ideas.

I have read Archaic revival and these days I have read the chapters from food of the gods I hadn't read.

I don't believe he is 95% bullshit. It's much less [when he is not 95% bullshit that is ]

I believe his bullshit ideas prevent his great ideas from becoming more accessible, and accepted, and IMHO that's where his failure lies. I remember this famous perfect quote from a lecture

 

See it

McKenna fails to deliver. Whereas he states we sould be looking for mid sized and conprehensible ideas, he goes on to dismiss self-guided psychotherapy and tell us what's it's really about. Thing is McKenna went on to talk about lots of 'large fish', incomprehensible ideas capable of bringing the boat down.

Anyways, I believe McKenna is a gifted man, I'm gaining lots of stuff from reading him. Many of his ideas are great. And he sure has a way with words which I admire in a person.

OK, now on to the particulars...

Telepathogen

He is a genius, and so is his brother. Sure, some (but not that much) of his scientific evidence has been contested but underlying the few positivist discrepancies in his oeuvre lay a deeper wisdom, a moral wisdom. He's ability to transmit this wisdom through advanced poetics and public speaking is one of the greatest inspirations that the late modern psychedelic movement has experienced.

he does have a moral advantage. but he loses it when he submits to his own interpretation of what's it's really about and being so preachy and obsessed with it, to the point of messiah syndrome

It is common for people to dislike the stars, stereotypes and archetypal icons of their subcultural niches. By doing this they attempt to elevate themselves above the ordinary-typical and into the transcendent, the authentic. [read with nasaley adolescent accent] "I'm a real psychedelic researcher/adventurer/head. Terence McKenna (only because he is famous) is crap, have you read Benny Shannon, Krippner, Grof, Metzner, if not then you don't know shit". Bullshit! These type of identity games are played out in all subcultures by those with insecure egos. Obsessive reggae fans will often talk shit on Bob Marley to validate a "true" position as a reggae fan.

You might be right about this, when talking about the common idiot taker. I don't dislike the guy, I think he is a great read , presents lots of great ideas, and he is funny, but fuck I always disliked the sheep mentality his fans radiate. Stars are great, especially at night, it's icons, idols what bothers me Some people need gurus, some other are more of the do-it-yourself , figure-it-out yourself, customising it yrself thing...

Also, don't forget when talking about fanaticism and pseudodilemas, remember that McKenna himself brought the football fan mentality HolyMountain is generously showing offering us a living paradigm. Inferior and superior drugs. That's what fans do, especially football fans.

HN>>>

the fact that mutant is proclaiming 'alcohol rules' makes a pretty strong case as to why he doesn't like mckenna. alcohol has done a lot of damage to our society. car accidents, domestic violence, suicide etc. men don't take psychedelics and beat their wives. alcohol does not rule. sorry dude.

and you're talking about humour ??? and failing to understand? get a grip man. The only thing that I am definately procliming is that your a believer, and as a believer you say your poem. McKenna is a tryptamine fanatic and you seem to be too, I am just a friend with alcohol, as I am with amanitas. Speed yeah I am in love, but I don't use it psychs, oh, more spooky, maybe the best 'teachers', I respect them, I think I'm falling in love... Anyway, each of them, I use it to my advantage , but I don't worship it, nor do I respect it because the guru tells me to. I respect it because it demands respect, and care IME.

Talk about humour.

let's admit you parrot mckenna shit about alcohol and let the alcohol discussion outside. I was reading it these days and you sound exactly like it.

The chapter on alcohol has indeed some interesting ideas in, but his amanita and soma pages are almost completely completely bullshit - but a complete revelation of what tryptamin chavinism really looks like. His fanaticism and bullshit is obvious when he talk about drugs he considers inferior, that's for sure.

those that dislike mckenna often miss the sense of humour he displays. he is aware that some of his ideas make him sound like a messianic loon. and he gladly admits it.

Good for him. I hope you find the humour yourself, so as not to act like an asshole when someone expresses a different opinion. McKenna and your 'Other worlds' are not something we have to respect, because you say so in this arrogant and illusioned way, and I am not kissing nobody's ass! Like everything you have to earn the respect. And you're not doing very well.

i also know mutant has not had breakthrough doses of tryptamines and thinks 'alcohol rules'.

You don't know shit about me and my experiences, you only proove for once for that your all religious and herd mentality about this. I like reading McKenna, and as with every book I judge for myself. I don't like what McKenna did to the cause he supposedly served. Seeing your own approach, a self proclaimed worshipper to attack me because I insulted the idol helps me understand McKennas failure better, and also see you more generously.

Edited May 16, 2010 by mutant

[Psiloman]

Well, let me start by saing that i am not a McKenna Fan.

Actually, i WANT -read: i strive to- not be anyone's fan because this can in many cases cloud judgement.Now, this might not be a problem if you are a fan of a band or...spaggeti with pesto ,but it could pose a problem if it deals with issues that have the potential to sharply and deeply affect someone : like psychedelics for example, or any sort of psychoactive. While here one might argue that being a fan of anything affects you , i suggest as "clever" to be more carefull on things that can rapidly and powerfully hit you.

To tell you the truth also, i am...not a fan of myself also ,if Fan means to take one's ideas as a gospel of some sort. I think that trouble starts not from "content" of a theory/writer/ourselves but also "form" : For example "being rigid" (a form) can be an attribute of any theory be it nazism,cubism or pasta-lovism (content).

While content influences a lot, my main question to fans and non-fans of any idea is : What does it mean to YOU? What does it mean IN PRACTICE? I know McKenna fans (as i know McKenna haters to take the extreme opposite) that behave sensibly towards themselves. I also know McKenna fans (as i know McKenna haters to take the extreme opposite one more time) that have managed to seriously fuck up themselves and their lives with use of psychoactives (substitute psychoactives with any matter and there you have a more general version).

I have read McKenna books as i have also read Mein Kampf,Tom Robbins books and Kavafis poetry : its not so much what i have read but how i go about acting out whatever i think comes out of those reads.

More to the point of the thread: i think some McKenna theories are flawed and should not be taken as fact. I am not too fond of him.I really though cannot understand (or to tell you the truth i understand it and consider it typical human behaviour) why there is this "rigidity" seen on forums about his ideas or Leary's ideas. Some people seem as if they use McKenna ideas to excuse a blatant abuse. Others seem to use his theories as many people use esoteric teaching, more like an escapade from this "mundane life" to something more colorful. Maybe "idolisation" of any person would bring that to his/her teachings : If one idolises McKenna we will see this whole "Heroic* dosage" thing permeating forums which i dislike as a term even though i am not negatively predisposed towards a bigger dose -i am not a blind proponent of it either!-. Hmmm i really wonder what if each one of us was "Idolised" and "Popularised" what would happen to our theories and "teachings"... Would people erm...street beat others because they were "Psychedelics theists" or would they consider them snobs calling them "Tryptamine chauvists" if Mutant became an idol, whereas HE would disapprove of such acts propably saying "Let em be, whatever!"? Would people start chanting "Mentality Mentality" and beat the hell out of those who didnt have their version of understood "Mentality" if i was to become an Idol? Heheheh, i cringe at the thought of idolisation : and its quite sure that others would forget that PEOPLE are behind those acts and not a theory which can be misunderstood, twisted to ones own ends or simply taken way too seriously in a rather funny and unserious way !

Ah if one wants to know my opinion on what i think were the good qualities of McKenna : He was articulate,clever and gave a good show. He was very charismatic and had his way with the crowd, his books should be given a look -as many other books as well i think-.

-Hmmm,didnt this guy say he is not a McKenna Fan? Didnt he say he is not too fond of him?

-Well, Bob, i think he did!

-Then how can he give him credit and praise him in a way on his good qualities?

-Ah,Bob, maybe he tries not to be "rigid" and trapped too much in his own ideas.

Thats another part...Trying not to be too "enveloped" in my own ideas ,so to avoid forming "A Cult of ME!" which will imprison me in thought rigidity. That -for me- can be a serious pitfall.Re-examine, Re-consider, even make fun of yourselves : That tongue-in-cheek approach ,which doesnt lack seriousness when its called for, helps one from becoming a "tightass" .And being a tightass is not only a "conservative"'s (take it broader not only in political meaning) feature, one can really be a liberal "tightass".

Telepathogen: So ,does one HAVE to like "stereotypes and archetypal icons of their subcultural** niches" in order not to be characterised as "insecure egos" or snobs? On the other hand ,couldnt one say that a blind follower is someone who falls on the other pitfall of social mimicry just because "being with others" is always warm and fuzzy? I see this "herding" generally not only in this subject, not only in this "culture-subculture-callitwhatyouwill-" but if you want to stay withing the scope of those matters , i see the same with classical debates such as "Recreational VS spiritual" (i say there are other types too). Cant one decide for himself and ...not be characterised? :D

Anyway, on the above i think everyone things in a way that the others are the "unthinking majority", an attitude best given by this cartoon,which i think its good to make a mental picture of it for other threads also :

Well, that all for now folks from me! I like this discussion ,will have my eyes on it.

*Where is the "heroic" part? Maybe the word "Hero" is so overused that it has lost its meaning? Heheheh..."Heroic" can be a dangerous word for many people looking for "things to stand out" , it might draw them like moths to the insect killer lamp...

**In order for someone to have a culture or a subculture (heh, ...meaning below cultural level in some cases ? hehe) one must not simply be impregnated with ideas taught by others : the impregnation only suffices for a Petri Dish to develop a culture on! Critical thinking is of utmost important. Doubting others (and YOURSELF!)-not obsessively of for the sake of doubting, but having it as an option!- is a clever start.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Psiloman

[Chiral]

Those who are not puppeted by interpersonal-ego games often embrace the stars of their subculture as these stars tend to illuminate.

 

LMAO.^^^

Why would the psychedelic community ever need a star or leader...isn't dissolving the ego the crux of the psychedelic movement, doing away with power or leaders.

The only stars in the movement are the ones you look at when you lift your head off the ground.

The hero's and gods in this movement are the plants and chemistry, anyone who thinks any person is, one who uses words to convince others,.. is nothing but a false prophet or ego maniac.

[lofty86]

personally i find listening to and watching Terence a little irritating after a big day (the high pitch voice and inpromt peaks of exitment in his talks) i find it hard to sit through. but i get a lot out of reading his books and transcripst and think all of his work is fantastic.

sorry holymountain but what do you mean terrence and his brother pioneered home cubensis cultivation? how old would terrence be if he were alive? my uncle steve was in a band called fungus wardrobe back in the 60s long befor the net was around so im assuming such things have been practiced for a while.

[Psiloman]

The hero's and gods in this movement are the plants and chemistry

Heh, not even, id say!

Does one really need heroes and gods? The ...vehicle is wayyyyy tooooo glorified as it is ,at least in online communities. Better put all this energy and amazement in puting in practice (and reality checking) whatever you think the vehicle gave you/took you to.

[holymountain]

sorry holymountain but what do you mean terrence and his brother pioneered home cubensis cultivation?

he and his brother wrote one of the first books on cultivation "Psilocybin -- Magic Mushroom Growers Guide" this was sometime in the 70s i believe. i've no doubt many people were aware of mushrooms before that but he was one of the first to figure out how to grow them at home. your uncle steve sounds like a rad dude i'd love to hear some of his stuff.

You don't know shit about me and my experiences

mutant from what you've told me i know you have never had a large dose of mushrooms nor have you had DMT. Seeing as Mckenna mainly talks about these things i can see why, with the experiences you have under your belt, you'd consider his thoughts 'incomprehensible ideas capable of bringing the boat down'.

also just because i have the same view as mckenna on certain subjects does not mean i parrot him. its pretty much a given that alcohol overall has had a negative effect on society. you don't need to read terrence mckenna to see that. i had come to that conclusion on my own just by seeing the destruction it has brought upon friends of mine.

McKenna and your 'Other worlds' are not something we have to respect, because you say so in this arrogant and illusioned way

 

i didn't say you needed to respect the other worlds or whatever. just check them out and make your own decisions based on the data you collect. you are the one making arrogant and illusioned claims because you are calling bullshit and making statement on things you haven't done.

thats the moral of the story. if something doesn't make sense or you think it's bullshit maybe investigate the things being talked about and come to your own conclusion afterwards.

[drugo]

Hi Psilo. Thanks for the probing. To clarify, if you read my words closely you will notice that I said that there is a tendency in subcultures for its members to put shit on the 'stars' or famous stereotypes of their niche. This is a tendency, not a must, and I think that this tendency often grows out of insecure identity politics. I personally became swept up by T. McKenna many years back then decided that I thought he was shit, now I seem to have leveled out to a greater appreciation of the man. In response to chiral, not at all do I suggest worshiping T as some sort of guru figure. But he is a genius on many levels and without these type of geniuses our subculture would have no where near the current amount of resources, networks, and information available for people to discover and 'make heros and gods of the plants and chemistry', or to take a more Krishnamutri approach -- to make heros and gods of themselves -- or whatever path one takes. Personally, I prefer to see myself as a humble servant of Life, a worshiper of experience.

Why would the psychedelic community ever need a star or leader...isn't dissolving the ego the crux of the psychedelic movement, doing away with power or leaders.

Power is not inherently bad. It can both create and destroy. Leadership is not inherently bad. It can create 'herds' of docile followers, or generations of creative agents. Terence was far from being any sort of fascist totalitarian figure, he was simply an intelligent and genuine explorer of alterity who graciously opted to share his journey with millions through the type of methods that have been with our culture since at least ancient Greece. I'm talking about political rhetoric, a dance between myth and reason (remembering that what is now reasonable was once myth.

Terence was a postmodern myth maker (positivism being a particular type of myth making), a man with great fundamental values (for plant, animals [inc. humans]) and a profound ability to artistically transmit ideas that concern alternative [new] ways of looking at and being in the world.

one who uses words to covince others,.. is nothing but a false prophet or ego maniac.

umm, so tell me how this method (using words) differs from how you are contributing to this discussion?

Terence is like human-mushroom that sends wisdom and spores through the wind currents of poetry and spoken word into diverse pockets of the western cultural ecosystem. These spores land and grow into mushrooms that are eaten for a variety of reasons including dancing, searching, becoming, and flying, beyond the mores of McKenna.

Edited May 17, 2010 by telepathogen

[botanika]

i've read a few of mckenna's books and listened to several of his lectures. i think he's extremely clever with words and has a charisma about him, but i feel he was completely full of shit. well, maybe 95% full of shit.

i agree with mutant. i can't help but feel that many people take his ideas as gospel just because he said it, and people in the psychedelic community so desperately need a "psychedelic pin up boy" for lack of a better description.

IMHO, his brother dennis has done much more for psychedelics than terence, yet he'll forever live in his brother's shadow.

 

Totally agree. Great to listen to though - obviously a very well read guy.

[faustus]

LOL cunts are getting so worked up over this. it's great

after his talk at EGA 2009, i went up to bob jesse and thanked him for his talk, and told him that the 2006 psilocybin study he did was far more important for the psychedelics movement than anything timothy leary or terence mckenna did. and i meant it. so my question: how many people are familiar with this study, in comparison to terence mckenna's theory that it's because of our ego dominator culture that we believe in monogamy, and that we should all be indulging in group sex, like our psilocybin munching ancestors did? or his totally chat, basehead ideas about timewave zero?

like i said, mckenna is really good with words and i'm sure he was a fucking cool guy. once upon a time, when i was much younger, i took his ideas seriously and bought it all. but the psychedelic movement is just as susceptible to swallowing the bullshit of its prophets as any bible-thumping christian, all the while convincing itself that the masses who don't believe these far-out ideas just aren't "enlightened enough to get it".

pehaps being a "non-conformist" in the psychedelic movement, or as leary put it "thinking for yourself" and "questioning authority" might ironically involve taking mckenna's ideas with a grain of salt.

I believe his bullshit ideas prevent his great ideas from becoming more accessible, and accepted, and IMHO that's where his failure lies.

i'd go one step further. by giving credence to mckenna's more far-out ideas, the psychedelic community cannot be taken seriously by mainstream society. this is a double-edged sword: mckenna and leary have likely been very influential in the dissemination of psychedelics to a wider audience, but have at the same trivialised and marginalised the movement even further.

as much as it may pain us to admit it, when we make celebrities out of people like terence mckenna, maybe we ourselves are partially to blame for psychedelics not being taken seriously by the mainstream. and i think deep down, this is a core frustration of every single person on this forum.

let my crucifixion begin!

[Chiral]

One thing worthy of consideration about hero's and prophets is that...

Perhaps they never had any intentions of becoming demi gods rather they just shared information and became infamous for the amount of information they shared..therefore becoming something through infamy and gossip something they never wanted or intended in the first place.

lets say faustas discovers a new psychedelic and shares the information with people, writes a few journals and collects some valuable data on the substance, this elevates him to some sort of pioneer status and along comes with that a certain amount of fame and statue.

Is it not the masses that make someone a hero or god not the person themselves...unless self confessed like Charles Manson or something.

[∂an]

terence mckenna was a poet. words were his instrument and with them he deftly painted a picture of the psychedelic experience. for me, his words seem to ooze the violet essence of the tryptamine dimension itself.

[holymountain]

let my crucifixion begin!

nah you made some really good points. mckennas ideas will never be taken seriously in the mainstream...and thats one of the reasons he was such an important figure. because he had the balls to talk about things that many consider crazy.

i listened to one of his talks today where he was talking about the philosophers stone and how our technology will eventually morph into an oject that is everything we want it to be. hard for me to put into words like he did but he pretty much predicted and described what Iphones are doing right now...so much of the stuff he talked about has come true. obviously the time wave theory is a little too far out but the basic thoughts behind it e.g evolution speeding up to a point seem to be working out as planned. its trippy hearing him talk about technology in particular and realise that 30 years ago he was predicting stuff that is happening now. of course he isnt the only one to do that but i still think its pretty cool. the talk if you are interested can be found here: http://feeds.feedburner.com/matrixmasters/iGAG

its part four of his hermeticism and alchemy talk.

also what Chiral said is a pretty good point. Mckenna didnt elect himself as the spokesperson or the authority. it was the people around him that held him up as their leader. If he was shit and talking out his ass I dont think he would have gotten the same reverence that he did get. Some of us might be silly hippies but there are some REALLY,REALLY intelligent people in the psychedelic community and I doubt they would have tolerated Mckenna had he not had something special to say.

[drugo]

after his talk at EGA 2009, i went up to bob jesse and thanked him for his talk, and told him that the 2006 psilocybin study he did was far more important for the psychedelics movement than anything timothy leary or terence mckenna did. and i meant it.

 

I'm not sure if it is helpful to compare McKenna with the John Hop. studies. They each have very different sources and implications. The latter is helping to solidify the value of entheogens in scientific circles but there are many different circles beyond the walls of the academy. Plus Terence personally spent a decent amount of energy dancing in other worlds, other states of being, and attempted to ground these journeys through a sophisticated logo-poetic apparatus into the minds of millions. This is very different to publishing esoteric scientific data in journals for other scientists to read. I'm not devaluing the latter but suggesting that it is a very different enterprise to McKenna's offerings. Though I also think that science and mysticism will both greatly benefit each other when a more sympathetic merge finally appears.

Seeing that you like D. Mckenna, did you catch Rak's recent interview with him shortly after MAPS conference? In this chat with Rak, Dennis is much more speculative and visionary than the logic-bomb type talks that he usually gives. It is much more like his 2005 paper 'aya and human destiny'.

[mutant]

HM

i also know mutant has not had breakthrough doses of tryptamines

mutant from what you've told me i know you have never had a large dose of mushrooms nor have you had DMT.

what's a breakthrough dose? define. Not only for tryptamines but other psychs too. No I haven't done D MT yet.

Seeing as Mckenna mainly talks about these things i can see why, with the experiences you have under your belt, you'd consider his thoughts 'incomprehensible ideas capable of bringing the boat down'.

First of all he doesn't talk only about these drugs. And he doesn't talk only for big doses. He is just obsessed over big-doses and obsessed over tryptamines and his interpretations, but he also talks about drugs that he knows nothing about, like amanitas. Also, your mantis dark sub trip report is not incomprehensible only in my eyes, but also in your own. Even McKenna admits he doesn't know exactly what he is talking about, and so are you. So if I ever meet the mechanical elves I will tell them hello from you, and come to report to you, till then, they don't exist IME, so stop telling me to have a bigger dose, will you?

its pretty much a given that alcohol overall has had a negative effect on society

it's a given? no it's a stereotype for psychedelic theists, as for the rest of society it's a given that 'all drugs are bad', mckay? Greeks and people all over the world have very nice alcohol 'rituals' that bring people closer. Notably, beer & wine [not hard liquers] accompanying and/or following supper.

you are the one making arrogant and illusioned claims because you are calling bullshit and making statement on things you haven't done.

quote my illusioned claims! The only conclusion I got is that you have nothing practical / in particular to present ~ till now. Nor has McKenna. Why do you keep repeating yourself. No wonder I called you a parrot.

thats the moral of the story.

A Moral?? What's a moral doing here?

if something doesn't make sense or you think it's bullshit maybe investigate the things being talked about and come to your own conclusion afterwards.

let's see you talking about it, since you know so much about 'it'. You know why you don't have anything to say? Because you don't 'know' yourself ;)

On the other hand, I have several reason to doubt the fact that these almost religious stories are mind creations, here are some:

1) you started behaving rudely and arrogantly to me, trying to discredit me using the cheapest way possible, that I am not experienced enough, as if knowledge or objectivity are analogous to the # of trips and total grams consumed. This happened even more distinctly when I commented on a dark report of yours, noting that maybe, maybe, there was nothing special or symbolic about it, just headfucking. This whole behaviour indicates a religious mind. Religious minds have a hard time being objective , especially towards ideas perceived as hostile to the said religion.

2) I am a rationalist, an atheist, I don't believe in the supernatural. You know of course that believing is required for miracles to occur, no? I am argueing that a non-believer will not experience the same things as believers do. Also for a non-believer such trips might be more difficult. I am also saying that McKennas Fans will have more McKennish visions under the influence. You want evidence? Common sense and basic knowledge of what psychedelics are, again.

3) Psychedelics were called psychotomimics in the old days. It's pretty valid if you ask me. Their effects can indeed very much resemble psychosis. Why should I believe that the phenomena experienced are for real, and not an advanced form of the drug action mimicking psychosis? Intense trips can resemble psychosis, note that psychosis does not only occur in negative mode, f.e. paranoid dellusion, but also in a extremely 'positive' form f.e. 'dellusions of grandeur', 'speaking with god' etc....

*****

*Can the mushrooms be of an alien origin? maybe, but then what about the other related psychedelics? Are they alien too?

*Can the mushrooms carry with them data from their alien past? Maybe - are people seeing and talking to aliens because they really make contact with them [the aliens] or because they already know of this nice idea [McKenna or otherwise], that maybe the mushroom has catalyzed the raise of consciousness in other planets/species before coming here and so the idea plays when under the influence?

*Can the mushrooms be some kind of portal to that alien descent? I doubt that, but I can accept that people experience this, while believeing, and that it can feel like it actually is a portal. But it's not. Not until my own transmitter lets me talk to them.

**********

One can understand that religious ideas are very important on people's thoughts on this. I would like to see what atheists feel/see when on large doses of psychs.

On another note. Not all psychedelic theists are tryptamine chauvinists. So what about other 'other worlds'??. What about mesca lina, ls d, et other worlds? Do each have a special other world when you do heroic dose, or only trypamines offer that? Or they do end up in more or less the same 'other world'.

What's the difference of fre ebase dm t and aya d mt , as far as 'the other', the space, the presence, is concerned?

So lets hear the 'enlightened', those who've been there.

Or we cannot doubt what you cannot even express?

[mutant]

LMAO.^^^

Why would the psychedelic community ever need a star or leader...isn't dissolving the ego the crux of the psychedelic movement, doing away with power or leaders.

The only stars in the movement are the ones you look at when you lift your head off the ground.

The hero's and gods in this movement are the plants and chemistry, anyone who thinks any person is, one who uses words to convince others,.. is nothing but a false prophet or ego maniac.

 

Chiral, McKenna sounds really messiah, he could not NOT see the influence and heroic status he made of himself. He described himself as pioneer and encouraged other pioneers to do the same. So he was a pioneer. He wanted a cult. He got a cult.

HM

I doubt they would have tolerated Mckenna had he not had something special to say.

McKenna is indeed special. Actually what McKenna has to say is special in the same vein a handicapped kid is special. [bad humour I know, and it's not even mine]

[t st tantra]

terence mckenna was a poet. words were his instrument and with them he deftly painted a picture of the psychedelic experience. for me, his words seem to ooze the violet essence of the tryptamine dimension itself.

 

bard is the correct term maybe?

my feeling is he found himself selected for the job.he says the shroom gave him the gift of the gab in order to do the job.

t s t .

[holymountain]

Even McKenna admits he doesn't know exactly what he is talking about, and so are you. So if I ever meet the mechanical elves I will tell them hello from you, and come to report to you, till then, they don't exist IME, so stop telling me to have a bigger dose, will you?

thats because to claim to know would be seriously arrogant and misguided. you wouldn't know much about those qualities though would you mutey? of course the entities don't exist in your experience. thats because you have no experience don't you see?

*Can the mushrooms be some kind of portal to that alien descent? I doubt that, but I can accept that people experience this, while believeing, and that it can feel like it actually is a portal. But it's not. Not until my own transmitter lets me talk to them.

well why don't you fire up your transmitter and say hello?

the steps necessary to experience these sorts of things have been outlines many times.

you cannot declare that things are and things aren't if you haven't bothered to investigate. even if you are a self appointed expert.

quit it with this 'enlightened' talk. no one has said they are enlightened. the word you are looking for is 'experienced'. people who have had these experiences are experienced not enlightened. and i don't mean it in a superior way either.

I am also saying that McKennas Fans will have more McKennish visions under the influence. You want evidence? Common sense and basic knowledge of what psychedelics are, again.

please explain the representations of reptiles, aliens, fairies etc in the paintings by pablo amaringo? this guy was a south american shaman who painted many of his ayahuasca visions. he did this all by himself without ever hearing of mckenna. these spirits have been represented in art and folklore throughout history well before mckenna started seeing them.

Edited May 18, 2010 by holymountain

[mutant]

people who have had these experiences are experienced not enlightened

Glad you admit it. So what's the use of such experience if it gets you so blinded? I prefer to gain my exeprience little by little keeping my mind open at the same time ;) In case you haven't noticed I am not planning to become a mushroom messiah. My quests are more about real life.

thats because to claim to know would be seriously arrogant and misguided. you wouldn't know much about those qualities though would you mutey? of course the entities don't exist in your experience. thats because you have no experience don't you see?

he is indeed seriously arrogant and misguided. He is full of that shit. And no, I don't know anything about these qualities, do you? No you don't.

That's another point of mine. You don't know, even though you were there. So why should I have to ahve been there to express an opinion? So I choose to regard all this as drug induced visions, till some smart lad comes up with something.

you cannot declare that things are and things aren't if you haven't bothered to investigate.

Oh yes I can. So that believers pop up like mushrooms to speak up.

even if you are a self appointed expert.

Expert in analysis of cause and causation of human behaviour. Like, recognising paranoia in someone else's trip, and the struggle of him to try and see it as something else than what it obviously is. Like, HM having a go at me because I commented on his dark trip. Like HM having a go at me because I disrespected McKenna [the guru] and the religion [the space].

please explain the representations of reptiles, aliens, fairies etc in the paintings by pablo amaringo?

explain what? That doesn't make sense. He painted them so there they are. I expect that reptiles , aliens and fairies were known to mankind before McKenna. Make a point please, instead of performing short bursts.

[FancyPants]

people who have had these experiences are experienced not enlightened

Glad you admit it. So what's the use of such experience if it gets you so blinded? I prefer to gain my exeprience little by little keeping my mind open at the same time ;) In case you haven't noticed I am not planning to become a mushroom messiah. My quests are more about real life.

 

Gets you blinded?? There's a reason they say psychedelics expand the mind. Ever laid back in the same spot for six hours just looking at the night sky thinking about everything and nothing, and all in between? I wouldn't call that blinded.

[Psiloman]

Gets you blinded?? There's a reason they say psychedelics expand the mind. Ever laid back in the same spot for six hours just looking at the night sky thinking about everything and nothing, and all in between? I wouldn't call that blinded.

 

One could also call that "simply stoned" or under the influence of heroin

And after that? Whats next? What do you do with your new found vision?

There is where the Irish-ass Leprecaun pot o'gold is!

[mutant]

heh

blind as close-minded

not talking about the experience itself