Are you a believer?

[holymountain]

.

Edited May 30, 2010 by holymountain

[holymountain]

With alcohol you can abuse it for years and stay pretty much unchanged, psychedelics abuse definately changes people for better or worse, it depends.

whatever you say mutey.

[mutant]

no not joking

here's a fine example of dellusion from jabez, matched with overtones of substance chauvinism , language abuse and selective interpretation:

A severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social functioning.

equals

In other words if your really drunk you have psychosis.

lol, how smart, for a 12 y.o. kid

*********

alright, you got me, psychosis is an illusion, voices are in reality aliens/monkey elves/mantids who chose the very best of community's people to let them know the ultimate truth.

[SunChaser]

no not joking

here's a fine example of dellusion from jabez, matched with overtones of substance chauvinism , language abuse and selective interpretation:

equals

lol, how smart, for a 12 y.o. kid

*********

alright, you got me, psychosis is an illusion, voices are in reality aliens/monkey elves/mantids who chose the very best of community's people to let them know the ultimate truth.

 

lol, WTF point are you trying to make dude? Do you actually have some kind of point? Or maybe your just rambling meaningless nothings because it's easier than accepting there's a whole world outside that tiny little box you inhabit? Alcohol has just as much potential to cause psychosis as any other commonly used drug, it's got nothing to do with opinion, it's common scientific knowledge!

Edited May 30, 2010 by jabez

[The Dude]

...I think the rest can all go without saying.

[Rabaelthazar]

Alcohol-related psychosis is a secondary psychosis with predominant hallucinations occurring in many alcohol-related conditions, including acute intoxication, withdrawal, after a major decrease in alcohol consumption, and alcohol idiosyncratic intoxication. Alcohol is a neurotoxin that affects the brain in a complex manner through prolonged exposure and repeated withdrawal, resulting in significant morbidity and mortality. Alcohol-related psychosis is often an indication of chronic alcoholism; thus, it is associated with medical, neurological, and psychosocial complications.

 

from emedicine.medscape.com

One of 1,300,000 hits when searching google for alcohol psychosis

<edit - just for fun, I googled cannabis psychosis - 324,000 hits, LSD psychosis - 1,900,000 hits, mushroom psychosis - 1,070,000 hits and DMT psychosis - 372,000 hits.... obviously this means nothing in terms of which substance is actually more likely to cause psychosis, but it clearly shows that alcohol is recognized by the general population to be a potential catalyst for psychosis nearly as much as LSD is recognized to be. You're not going to find much support for this new argument of yours, Mutant. edit>

Edited May 30, 2010 by Rabaelthazar

[holymountain]

take heed my children! don't make the same mistakes i did! i was once young like you and eager to discuss ideas, but alas, i dealt with an idiot and now i too feel like an idiot!

do not waste your youth!!

jump ship whilst you can! before we all end up retarded from arguing with this tool of all tools!

[Chiral]

Let's not forget the physical damage alcohol does..(in society in general and the individual)... as opposed to ...oh I don't know say tryptamines...

Yep I can see all those beaten housewives, football hooligans, schoolies fights, George street at 2am or any other random violence in a pub on a Friday or Saturday night being caused by trippers who are out of control and thrashing their fists around at anything the can barely see, before being locked in the back of a paddy wagon and thrown in the slammer for a night to get over their DMT fueled night of violence.

LSD on tap at the pubs and clubs is the cause of so much violence and agro, the poor police have to drag these fucked out trippers off the streets with their yelling and bloody noses every weekend, when they could be doing other real police work.

The hospitals are overflowing with psychotic trippers who have liver and kidney failure, who have lost families and jobs, lost their licences from tripping and driving or even worse gone out driving under the influence of DMT had a head on collision killing a bus full of salvo workers, little girls and fluffy white bunnies.

Lets not mention the devastating almost genocidal effect alcohol has had on many indigenous cultures around the world.

I'm a much better person for having an alcoholic fist throwing father as a kid too, I really developed a lot of great skills from dodging his big fast swinging fists at my body when i was 5 thru 12.

[mutant]

before we all end up retarded from arguing with this tool of all tools!

at least I get a honour

I find it quite appropriate. The thread/poll about psychedelic theism suddenly changes topic to how bad alcohol is.

Raba> sorry man, but this is no arguement, it's just cheap impressions, cheap as, "I googled these two words and I get these numbers". So what? For people with common sense , it is important if it comes after 30 years of alcohol drinking or a years psychedelics use, like 4-5 uses, it is important if people getting it had tendencies to get it or not etc etc etc

but yeah, alcohol is bad, mckay?

Chiral

I'm a much better person for having an alcoholic fist throwing father as a kid too, I really developed a lot of great skills from dodging his big fast swinging fists at my body when i was 5 thru 12.

that says a lot about your being a hardhead and your apparent incapability of understanding sensitivity, but not about alcohol itself ;)

for the lack of integrity and incapability to understand what I am saying I would blame one part the drugs you have abused over the years and one part fanaticism I have caused with my 'arrogant' thoughts and claims.

[hutch]

totally off topic and i know i shouldn't even bother but have you ever wondered why football fans are such thugs?

why people get out of control and beat each other up?

why it's so popular?

can't help but think it might be all the alcohol that gets consumed in amongst it. can't imagine the same riots occuring if the fans were all on mushrooms. can you?

 

I think you will find it is a tribal thing...since way way back when we were crawling around in caves we worked out there was safety in numbers. We like to be part of a group and we like to fit in. My group is better than your group kinda thing is still going on today. Now it's my God will kick the fuck outa your God......

[psili sausage]

.

I've been known to a few friends of mine to say that LSD + NOS is the key to unlocking the universe though

 

That's funny! I had an experience years ago after a couple of bulbs at a recovery party where everyones voices blended together (in pure NO2 style) into a telepathic message from god saying that I didn't understand the universe therefore could not say he didn't exist. There was also an element to the trip of "see! This is how it really is! Why can't you understand? Are you stupid?" It was about 10 minutes before I came to and realised what had happened...then I had another 2 and the experience repeated itself. I was temporarily convinced that reality up to this point had been an illusion and that I'd finally "woken up."

[Distracted]

That's funny! I had an experience years ago after a couple of bulbs at a recovery party where everyones voices blended together (in pure NO2 style) into a telepathic message from god saying that I didn't understand the universe therefore could not say he didn't exist. There was also an element to the trip of "see! This is how it really is! Why can't you understand? Are you stupid?" It was about 10 minutes before I came to and realised what had happened...then I had another 2 and the experience repeated itself. I was temporarily convinced that reality up to this point had been an illusion and that I'd finally "woken up."

 

Mmmmm

I've had an experience where I realised everytime I do LSD/NOS I find out the meanings of life... then the universe collapses and is compressed to a single point, my memory is erased and i'm placed back into my body a few minutes before I blasted off. I am then only able to do the things that are help to sustain balance in the universe. I realised i've died many many times only to not know what makes me die... so the next week I can die again and be brought back...

Existance is the biggest joke in the universe.

My last blast off... It was very intense... As the walls in my back room were opening and closing I started shouting

"I understand now, I understand" until everything was over... then it went away

Every door that is opened leads to a room with the same amount of doors. You can see the whole building inside every room... but every room has more doors leading to more rooms, the more doors you enter the harder it is to retrace your path and remember each room you've visited...

Life is a fractal

BTW the universe gets really bummed out when you figure it out, it's not angry or mad... just disapointed. It's so depressed that it can only talk to people that can't remember and it's heard everything before infitity times as people peice together billions of years of secrets into the 15 second window it takes for it to implode on itself.

My universe at least... maybe not yours. This makes sense to me... maybe not to you.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Distracted

[ThunderIdeal]

i'd love you to describe these ideas further at your leisure (in whatever thread you choose)

[Tangata Manu]

'Seekers' will always be lost.

'Believers' will never find truth.

[The Dude]

aaah what a beautiful quote.

while we're quoting, I mean on the nature of truth/belief/knowledge/invention/insight/sight/fiction

paraphrase...

"demanding a physical proof of gods existence is like demanding the right to hear with your eyes" - some quote i can't remember who wrote.

"There's no such thing as hell, but you can make it if you try

there might come a day when emotion can be quantified

but as for now there is no proof necessary

it's only in your mind" - bad religion

""Be a light unto yourself, betake yourselves to no external refuge.

Hold fast to the Truth. Look not for refuge to anyone besides yourselves."

-Gautama Buddha

"be still and know that i am god" - psalms.

----

Finally there's a lot of heated argument here that isn't real debate, more similar to a shitfight. Here's some reading we should all do before we find ourselves being this philosophically unfair with our own argumentative fallacies...

The fallacies of philosophical debate

[The Dude]

Double Post

Edited June 20, 2010 by The Dude

[mutant]

Dude

I have found, over the years, that one of the commonest and cheapest ways people deal with a situations they cannot deal is simply dismissing, devalueing stuff by saying 'this is not really a debate, it's a shitfight'

Which brings us to "how come", "why is that" and "who brings the shit?"

It's not a debate because you cannot argue?

It's not a debate because such stuff are simply not questioned in psych forums?

But you're right, believers cannot argue, well they cannot argue with a decent atheist without making fools of themselves.

so

Paraphrasing

Demanding a physical proof of gods existence is something that comes from

a) a person without humour

b ) a boring person

c ) a scientifist atheist [a boring, humourless atheist, among other things]

d ) a person that overestimates the potential and value of scientific or otherwise proof

a combination of the above

another fine quote

if you want tranquility and peace, believe...

if you want to find the truth, seek...

Distracted,

BTW the universe gets really bummed out when you figure it out, it's not angry or mad... just disapointed. It's so depressed that it can only talk to people that can't remember and it's heard everything before infitity times as people peice together billions of years of secrets into the 15 second window it takes for it to implode on itself.

it sounds like you yourself are bummed out...

ya'know, did you ever hear that the more times you go there, the less you enjoy it

look at my universe, it makes a little bit more sense than yours on this one. Why wouldn't the universe like to be figured out? it doesn't make sense [unless you consider some strange entitiy is related with the universe so we don't really know what are its/his ways] but it makes some sense if you think it's the consciouness that experiences itself through a powerful combo of a psych drug [a drug that renders the right people open and sensitive on the nature of reality and life] and a disso drug [a drug that causes a temporary death and concentrates the whole to the one, the death, the personal]

I would find it pretty interesting to know how long this method has been working for you and how long do you think the same ticket will keep on taking you there.

Edited June 21, 2010 by mutant

[The Dude]

Dude

I have found, over the years, that one of the commonest and cheapest ways people deal with a situations they cannot deal is simply dismissing, devalueing stuff...

 

I've noticed this too.

Which brings us to "how come", "why is that" and "who brings the shit?"

 

Try re-reading ... most of your posts.

You often start of with ad hominem attacks dismissing the others perspective based on it being that of a simple minded "believer" or "psychedelic theist". You could dismiss the more allegorical posts as hyperbole or nonsense because you obviously cannot grasp them, you invent strawman arguments (apparently) misunderstanding the point made and extrapolating some elaborate fantasy of what it must mean, then based on said fiction you throw stones from a totally un-related place yet think you're on target.

You discuss religious zeal in belief making as the reason why people see things and dismiss the mystery of "spirits/otherworlds/what-have-you" as the result of some childishly impressionable minds steered that way by some guru figure - The only possible explanation to you for anybody seeing anything seems to be we're all idiots. So, who's you're guru? Dawkins? You display similar personalities anyway.

Also important to provoke then retreat, ask questions but ignore answers, ignore questions directed your way and above all maintain your strength of ego knowing that this isn't really an open discussion, just some rhetotric of yours to teach these poor fools... or waste their time with you're trolling, either or I'm not going to go through your posts and highlight your argumentative fallacies.

a bit of self reflection goes a long way... do vampires still see their reflection? was that an ad hominem attack or an idle comment? hmmmm... does context mean anything? no of course not. What happens if they're exposed to light? that's right, they run for the shadows. They try to sucker others in with their infectious bite, yet they don't know what compels this hunger, they merely just feed it and compel others to follow along... what has this got to do with anything?

connecting dots in novel ways is schizophrenic apparently so don't dare do that!

[Distracted]

Distracted,

it sounds like you yourself are bummed out...

ya'know, did you ever hear that the more times you go there, the less you enjoy it

look at my universe, it makes a little bit more sense than yours on this one. Why wouldn't the universe like to be figured out? it doesn't make sense [unless you consider some strange entitiy is related with the universe so we don't really know what are its/his ways] but it makes some sense if you think it's the consciouness that experiences itself through a powerful combo of a psych drug [a drug that renders the right people open and sensitive on the nature of reality and life] and a disso drug [a drug that causes a temporary death and concentrates the whole to the one, the death, the personal]

I would find it pretty interesting to know how long this method has been working for you and how long do you think the same ticket will keep on taking you there.

 

I definately feel that my negative experience is due to my lack of spirituality and I was definately very psychotic, if only temporarily. What I experienced was very real to me and that is exactly how I interpreted it. Whether I believe it is another matter but it still plagues my mind every now and then when I think about it.

It's not a very pleasant state for me really... but it is definately an extreme state. It's the state where if you close your eyes you'll black out for a little bit seeing ridiculously vibrant psychadelic rainbow patterns in 2D and feel yourself lifting away and when you finally open your eyes you're a little dazed for a bit and it's been maybe 20 seconds.

It's only happened a few times to me but if you keep your eyes open and the conditions are right you can induce an extreme state of susceptibility. You are then heavily influenced by external stimuli whether it be someone speaking to you, or what you see/hear, not to mention your brain making patterns out of anything and everything. I think a few of my negative experiences were due to psytrance . The music warps too music, it creates patterns then changes them which alters what you see.

In the end I put together a whoooole bunch of patterns to form my experience. Right patterns wrong patterns who cares, it was an experience.

[mutant]

Dude>>

you talk too much about me. Waaaaaaaaay too much. Aren't you afraid you're gonna be marked from all the shit? ANyways, you're getting so personal and saying so many random stuff about me that I am sure I am doing something right.

No fucking proof, no science

So, who's you're guru? Dawkins?

of course not, prooves you have no idea where I am coming from, fuck Dawkins, I am my own guru, fuck gurus!

distracted>>

interesting, so

wealth of spirituality renders psychosis-like states into something 'good'

or lack of spirituality doesn't take the experience to its best of potentials?

Sure, psychedelic parties, psytrance and the sometimes awful crowd in such parties in combo with a strong psych experience can be pretty messy. I had a intense bad trip [lots of paranoia] many years ago in a psyparty on a microdot. It was fuckin great, till 3.00 mark

then.....

Edited June 28, 2010 by mutant

[jay6785]

My Girlfriend belives in it strongly, as she commonly gets visited by the same entity (a black panther) who seems to always be there like a spirit companion.

I am not sure, I just keep my mind open to possibilities.

[mutant]

Man I would take a black panther to mechanical elves anyday!!

[edit: I am serious, I love cats]

Edited June 29, 2010 by mutant

[ThunderIdeal]

i find it hard to believe you have much of an insight into what mckenna might have been talking about when he referred to self transforming mechanical elves.

[jay6785]

Yea I am pretty jealous of the black panther companion..basically it always comes no matter the pysc, the first time he came was a strong vision that told her to go outside when she went outside she said she saw all her ancestors in the sky, strangely enough we looked up what black panther means and in mayan cultures they are an animal that facilitates communication with the spirit world as well as a protector agaisnt evil spirits(she didn't really read and spirtuality books before this trip either..so no chance of a self forfilled vision).

I sometimes get a bit worried because she takes the whole thing pretty seriously, and I would be worried if it told her to do something stupid considering there is a good chance its just a hallcination.

[holymountain]

I sometimes get a bit worried because she takes the whole thing pretty seriously, and I would be worried if it told her to do something stupid considering there is a good chance its just a hallcination.

why are you worried? this sort of stuff is very common and an integral part of shamanism and native american and australian aboriginal spirituality. power animals/spirit guides etc are very helpful and nothing to be afraid of. and of course your girlfriend should take the whole thing very seriously, it is not an hallucination she has simply met her spirit guide and is lucky to have one looking after her.