do dreams involve some external feed?

[ThunderIdeal]

what are your thoughts/experiences? there must be a ton of dream threads but the main focus here is: does it all come from the ego, the brain, the physical self? or is there sometimes/always some component that we might call external?

i have bizarre dreams, nothing new for me to wonder 'how did i come up with that storyline?'. what really did my head in recently was a segment which was in fact the tv show 'top gear', complete with narration by jeremy clarkeson. i didn't even get the jokes in the dream, i was like a passive observer. then i woke up and realised there were several funny jokes in the last twenty seconds worth of dream and i found them pretty funny by that time.

the mind is an amazing thing, there are lots of things going on beneath the surface of my mind which astound me when i glimpse them but i simply can't get a good look. is it meant to be that way perhaps (woah bit of a tangent there)? does the unconscious mind explain the depth of some dreams?

[faustus]

i think there have been studies into this. an external stimulus is presented e.g. loud bang to someone sleeping during REM, then they're woken up and asked what they were dreaming about. they generally report a dream sequence associated with the external stimulus such as a gun being fired for a loud bang.

i've got this idea that you could create a very crude virtual reality simulator by presenting physical stimuli to someone dreaming. e.g. perfume of an ex-gf, voice of someone you know, etc. if you wanted to get tricky, you might present visual stimuli to the retina and see if the person experiences it as a dream sequence, even though they're asleep.

as for what dreams are, fucked if i know:scratchhead:

but i don't buy this whole memory consolidation idea -- people who are physically incapable of REM sleep can still have perfectly normally memory.

[Chiral]

I've been reading up on the hallucinatory state and came across this interesting little bit of info which is sort of relative as dreams are just another type of hallucination I think.

There is no single accepted definition of hallucinations and it is not clear just how they relate to sensory perception, illusion, dreams and imagination. However, let us define an hallucination as an apparent perception of something not physically present, and add that it is not necessary for the hallucination to be thought 'real' to count. Into this category come a wide range of experiences occurring in people, not suffering from any mental or psychiatric disturbance. Visual imagery may occur just before going to sleep (hypnagogic), on first waking up (hypnopompic) or they may be induced by drugs, sensory deprivation, sleeplessness, or severe stress. They may take many forms, from simple shapes to complex scenes.

Although it is possible to have an hallucination involving almost any kind of imagery, it has long been known that there are remarkable similarities between the hallucinations of different people, under different circumstances. Hallucinations were first classified during the last century during a period when many artists and writers experimented with hashish and opium as an aid to experiencing them. In 1926 Kluver began a series of investigations into the effects of mescaline and described four constant types. These were first the grating, lattice or chessboard, second the cobweb type, third the tunnel, cone or vessel, and fourth the spiral. As well as being constant features of mescaline intoxication in different people, Kluver found that these forms appeared in hallucinations induced by a wide variety of conditions.

In the 1960s, when many psychedelic drugs began to be extensively used for recreational purposes, research into their effects proliferated. Leary and others tried to develop methods by which intoxicated subjects could describe what was happening to them. Eventually Leary and Lindsley developed the 'experiental typewriter' with twenty keys representing different subjective states. Subjects were trained to use it but the relatively high doses of drugs used interfered with their ability to press the keys and so a better method was needed.

A decade later Siegel gave subjects marijuana, or THC, and asked them simply to report on what they saw. Even with untrained subjects he found remarkable consistencies in the hallucinations. In the early stages simple geometric forms predominated. There was often a bright light in the center of the field of vision which obscured central details but allowed images at the edges to be seen more clearly, and the location of this light created a tunnel-like perspective. Often the images seemed to pulsate and moved towards or away from the light in the center of the tunnel. At a later stage, the geometric forms were replaced by complex imagery including recognizable scenes with people and objects, sometimes with small animals or caricatures of people. Even in this stage there was much consistency, with images from memory playing a large part.

On the basis of this work Siegel constructed a list of eight forms, eight colors, and eight patterns of movement, and trained subjects to use them when given a variety of drugs (or a placebo) in controlled environment. With amphetamines and barbiturates the forms reported were mostly black and white forms moving aimlessly about, but with THC, psilocybin, LSD and mescaline the forms became more organized as the experience progressed. After 30 minutes there were more lattice and tunnel forms, and the colors shifted from blue to red, orange to yellow. Movement became more organized with explosive and rotational patterns. After 90 - 120 minutes most forms were lattice-tunnels; after that complex imagery began to appear with childhood memories and scenes, emotional memories and some fantastic scenes. But even these scenes often appeared in a lattice-tunnel framework. At the peak of the hallucinatory experience, subjects sometimes said that they had become part of the imagery. They stopped using similes and spoke of the images as real. Highly creative images were reported and the changes were very rapid. According to Siegel [sie77] at this stage 'The subjects reported feeling dissociated from their bodies.'

The parallels between the drug-induced hallucinations and the typical spontaneous OBE should be obvious. Not only did some of the subjects in Siegel's experiments actually report OBEs, but there were the familiar tunnels and the bright lights so often associated with near-death experiences. There was also the 'realness' of everything seen; and the same drugs which elicited the hallucinations are those which are supposed to be conducive to OBEs.

There have been many suggestions as to why the tunnel form should be so common. It has sometimes been compared to the phenomenon of 'tunnel vision' in which the visual field is greatly narrowed, but usually in OBEs and hallucinations the apparent visual field is very wide; it is just formed like a tunnel. A more plausible alternative depends on the way in which retinal space is mapped on cortical space. If a straight line in the visual cortex of the brain represents a circular pattern on the retina then stimulation in a straight line occurring in states of cortical excitation could produce a sensation of concentric rings, or a tunnel form. This type of argument is important in understanding the visual illusions of migraine, in which excitations spread across parts of the cortex.

Another reasonable speculation is that the tunnel has something to do with constancy mechanisms. As objects move about, or we move relative to them, their projection on the retina changes shape and size. We have constancy mechanisms which compensate for this effect. For very large objects, distortions are necessarily a result of perspective, and yet we see buildings as having straight wall and roofs. If this mechanism acted inappropriately on internally generated spontaneous signals, it might produce a tunnel-like perspective, and any hallucinatory forms would also be seen against this distorted background.

In drug-induced hallucinations there may come a point at which the subject becomes part of the imagery and it seems quite real to him, even though it comes from his memory. The comparison with OBEs is interesting because one of the most consistent features of spontaneous OBEs is that the experiencers claim 'it all seemed so real.' If it were a kind of hallucination similar to these drug-induced ones then it would seem real. Put together the information from the subject's cognitive map in memory, and an hallucinatory state in which information from memory is experienced as though it were perceived, and you have a good many of the ingredients for a classical OBE.

But what of the differences between hallucinations and OBEs? You may point to the state of consciousness associated with the two and argue that OBEs often occur when the person claims to be wide awake, and thinking perfectly normally. But so can hallucinations. With certain drugs consciousness and thinking seem to be clearer than ever before, just as they often do in an OBE. An important difference is that in the OBE, the objects of perception are organized consistently as though they do constitute a stable, physical world. But such is not always the case; there are many cases which involve experiences beyond anything to be seen in the physical world.

Consideration of imagery and hallucinations might provide some sort of framework for understanding the OBE. It would be seen as just one form of a range of hallucinatory experiences. But (and this is a big but) if the OBE is basically an hallucination and nothing actually leaves the body, then paranormal events ought not necessarily to be associated with it. People ought not to be able to see distant unknown places or influence objects while 'out of the body'; yet there are many claims to such an effect.

 

[∂an]

the main focus here is: does it all come from the ego, the brain, the physical self? or is there sometimes/always some component that we might call external?

 

if waking consciousness is largely a manifestation of the physical self and ego, and the psychedelic or shamanic consciousness is a reconnection into the collectivity of all consciousness/subconscious, then dreams seem to fall somewhere in between. but these three states are probably not mutually exclusive.

in my experience, although dreams can be incredibly intricate and amazing experiences, they are quite unpsychedelic. for example i have dreamt of being attacked by a preying mantis, being confronted with my infant self, being in a building as it tumbles to the ground and exploring an dutch port town complete with some sort of serpent in the canals... all very incredible... but i am yet to dream of the alien-yet-familiar entities and transforming geometric-audial-tactile objects encountered in the tryptamine dimensions.

dreams seem to always have a plot, a storyline to them, with characters and events that are commonly encountered in everyday reality. psychedelic experiences, on the other hand, seem to be filled to the brim with the external other - when encountering the fractal spiral of all time and space in my living room glowing and rotating, i certainly do not believe this is a manifestation of me - unless each one of us is everything that ever was and will be. but perhaps we can only recall the trivial aspects of our dreams, and that during deep REM sleep we break right through to the entity filled dimensions... perhaps its too much for our brains to ever remember.

the relationship between dream, conscious and shamanic states is fascinating and bizarre - perhaps there are multiple planes to our being (with the 'higher' planes being shared by multiple people, the lower planes belonging solely to the individual) and these states operate on different planes that intersect each other.

[drugo]

Dreams dance in and out of both the astral and the spiritual. Determining what particular aspects of a dream are linked to (ie, astral, archetypal, spiritual) requires training. The other day i read some stuff about certain amazonian shamanic techniques that help pick the difference between characters in a dream that are projections of your own dramas and characters which are spirits in disguise or are delivering messages from the spirit realm. As i said, learning to differentiate requires training.

[woof woof woof]

yes,.... dreams can be infleunced by external stimmulus!

dont let the fancy schmancy dream scenario projections fool you. just read between the lines.... if the dreams are bizarre... it's probably because your brainchemistry is bizarre.

if you open up telepatically for example... or are connected to someone (a close person) it will influence you.... be it due to synchronity or telepathy.

if you have opend up to new worlds somewhere allong your life those vibes may come back at another point......

it's all conditioning

you brain is like a radio..... it can pick up signals even while you are asleep. you know that!

if you are activly searching in your daily life for new vibes.... this can also contineu in your dreams..... that can be when dreams really get weird..... that MIGHT be a sign that you are bumping into something special....

but what it all boils down to is - full self awareness - so dont be fooled about the so called special things you come allong in your dreams. Although,... if you are into magic.. or other special abilities,... you might want to further explore whatever special pops up.

hope tiz helpfull

[FancyPants]

Something I've wondered about before, would any of you regard yourself as a fairly regularly vivid dreamer also consider yourself a person not inflicted with chronic or recurring depression? I ask because of a few close friends and family I've asked about seem to indicate that those who normally have problems with depression (biochemical or otherwise) also don't tend to dream very much, or at least not very often. Whereas myself, my mum, my granddad, and a couple other mates who dream a lot and tend to be quite realistic and involving, have never really had those kinds problems. Could be complete bubkuss I know, but not something I'd take a survey to the streets for. So I wonder if there's a correlation between natural serotonergic and dopaminergic levels at play.

[faustus]

I ask because of a few close friends and family I've asked about seem to indicate that those who normally have problems with depression (biochemical or otherwise) also don't tend to dream very much, or at least not very often.

do you know if they're on antidepressants?

after a few days of not being on SSRIs i start getting vivid dreams again. i used to be a vivid lucid dreamer, at times as realistic as waking reality... now, nothing. but once i stop taking SSRIs it comes back.

also, you gotta delineate between dreaming and remembering your dreams. you can have the most vivid dream, but if you don't remember it when you wake up, then it's as good as never happening. this is a big issue with astral projection/OBEs.

Edited May 3, 2010 by faustus

[Chiral]

I could never work out if my dreams are all right just before I wake up or if they start straight after REM, because I've woken up at say 6am, gone for a slash and come back and lay back in bed and drifted quickly back to sleep and take up the dream right where I left it, I see others thrashing around just after they fall asleep as they plunge into a nightmare or heavy dream straight away.

I love dreaming and have the most incredible lucid dreams ever sometimes, the full moon always makes them real intense.

They say there is whats called the dream window...at a random point in the day you stare for a few seconds and your brain engages in whats called the dream window, your brain takes in the information and stores it for later transformation into the nights dream, some say that day dreaming is actually the same thing, you disconnect from any thoughts which allow a information/conduit bypass into your RAM, the info pours in while you are disengaged for a few seconds and is then used to create the story line in your dream.

[ThunderIdeal]

thanks for all the great replies, much food for thought. i don't feel any need to post anything, but without necessarily agreeing i found this quite interesting:

you can have the most vivid dream, but if you don't remember it when you wake up, then it's as good as never happening. this is a big issue with astral projection/OBEs.

 

also whenever somebody says intersecting planes you know the discussion is good

[Magicdirt]

It's hard to say that dreams always originate in the mind of the dreamer.

When my missus was working early mornings (3am start) i'd get up to see her off, do some Qi gong and go back to bed.

I had some of the most bizzare dreams in my life at the time.

2 of the dreams were shared dreams between myself and my girls' younger brother.

He was able to describe the most intricate details of the dream to me and I could to him as well.

It was like a connection relived from a past life in ancient Egypt.

Some dreams seem to originate from somewhere else, who knows where it is ?

[drugo]

Some dreams seem to originate from somewhere else, who knows where it is ?

 

Origin, start, finish, future, past, up, down, sideways... put largely, common time-space conceptions are in urgent need of re-evaluation. Trying to reason the hyper-logics of meaningful memos that pop-up in dreams, through our current ontologies, is like trying to fly by flapping your arms. But, through re-configuring certain basic ontologies of time-space~consciousness, organs of flight may develop and open up worlds of understanding, and more importantly, experience.

Edited May 6, 2010 by telepathogen

[ThunderIdeal]

yes!

[hutch]

but perhaps we can only recall the trivial aspects of our dreams, and that during deep REM sleep we break right through to the entity filled dimensions... perhaps its too much for our brains to ever remember.

the relationship between dream, conscious and shamanic states is fascinating and bizarre - perhaps there are multiple planes to our being (with the 'higher' planes being shared by multiple people, the lower planes belonging solely to the individual) and these states operate on different planes that intersect each other.

 

When I read the above something just clicked. I got butterflies in the stomach and for some strange reason I new you were right. It was really weird.. Wednesday night I was dreaming and I'm not sure what state of sleep you would call it but I think I was in between asleep and awake. I felt i knew the answers to something very important and I just knew I would forget when I awoke. I was trying to work out how to remember it but knew I wouldn't be able to. My wife says I was talking in my sleep and what she says I was saying was what I was dreaming if that makes any sense. True to form when I did wake all I could remember was the part about needing to remember and I had forgotten what it was I had the answer to. The next night at around the same hour, 4.00 am it was happening again and I new that I was in that exact same place as I was the night before. I really knew something, it was big and I just had to find a way to remember. I was talking in my sleep again and I said to my wife that I know the answer now and to remind me in the morning. And it was "30"... Thats apparently what I told her to tell me and it would all then make sense. It didn't...What the fuck does "30" mean? We were away last night at friends on the piss so I didn't get to try it again last night. Maybe we do break through on a regular basis and we are just not able to bring that back to this plane of existence. Psychedelics may be that other way of making the same journey but much less reliable. Some one I know had an experience with DMT only to be chastised and sent back by a very grumpy entity who said "How did you get here,you shouldn't be here your not ready yet" and sent him back like a bullet. You could be totally right and we make the journey nightly for our tune up and if that is the case we will never know. Just like life after death I suppose. The only way to find out is to take the plunge.

Cheers

Hutch

[botanika]

Guess it depends on what you define as external. External physical stimuli surely has an effect - like if your sleeping and your doona or sheets are somewhat constricting you may find it hard to move around in your dream...like those dreams where you want to walk or run but you can't...the more you focus on trying to run the harder it is so in your dream you sort of hop and skip along. It could be that your body cannot move properly all cosed up in bed. Of course other times the dream can be fluid and you can jump into the air and fly about. For me that always seems to occur when Im coming out of a dream, transitioning into a more lucid state. If by external you are meaning spirits, machine elves and devils, seperate physical realities from another dimension no I dont believe that.

[C_T]

when we dream we can hear and feel.. so outside stimulus will guide the dream.

Dreaming your going to the toilet, then wake up busting? Can feel the pressure on your bladder. Dreaming the phone is ringing, wake up and hey it is ringing and in sync with the dream.

We paralyse our body while dreaming so we don't act out our dreams (sleep talk/walk), but the part of the brain controling wake/sleep is seperate to rem/non-rem and, especially if sleep deprived, can happen out of order.

Dreaming is a way to replay short term memories to the part long term memory occurs (making a copy), its an important part of us and i think should be given the utmost respect. Sleep is also very important for mental health, more important than people would like to believe.

[botanika]

Sleep is also very important for mental health, more important than people would like to believe.

 

Definately so - and quality deep sleep, not just lots of hours of sleep. Wouldn't mind coming back as a cat in my next life ;)

[C_T]

technically our deep sleep is stage n3. They recently changed the sleep scoring rules, we used to have stage 3 and stage 4 (depending on how much delta activity present). Now its just n3 (non-rem stage 3).

this is our deep sleep, we repair the body. The length if time un-interupted in n3 is directly proportional to the amount of growth hormone released (for repairing and general health).

REM sleep is the other important sleep stage, moreso for mental health than n3. Its because we are doing all our brain functions.

in an adult we'll have approx 20% n3 and 20% REM.

So yes, not just quantity of sleep (hours in bed), but QUALITY sleep stage percentages with minimal interuptions.

[ThunderIdeal]

no my question was not in reference to mundane 5 senses shit happening around the body.

i'd like to have some really profound statements but basically it's hard to believe my mind comes up with some of my dreams.

FWIW i also find it hard to believe the official line that dreams are just "a way to replay short term memories to the part long term memory occurs (making a copy),"

[C_T]

its not just, but its a good pathway...

its also a great battleground, where you can reinact previous experiences in slow motion totally broken apart and see your mistakes. perhaps thats why people relate pshychadelics to dreaming, though i see a distinct difference.

but what would i know, ive only monitored about 5000 people's eeg while they sleep ... and had to talk to every one of them hehe :D

Edited May 21, 2010 by C_T

[ThunderIdeal]

i'm not doubting your knowledge, just its completeness.

[C_T]

alot of famous people have claimed the breakthrough came to them in a dream, its the way our subconsious works for us

ie not just measly ole me telling you hehe

i could write 10 pages, but i really don't feel the love around here.

Edited May 21, 2010 by C_T

[ThunderIdeal]

i don't believe science has all of the answers but i'm sorry if i've been rude about it. your input is highly valued! and considering science DOES have SOME of the answers i'd love to read more about it.