Teotzlcoatl Posted January 31, 2010 The struggle of entheogens began in the 1960s.... I think at this stage in the fight for our recognition of legitimacy that it is actually hurting us more than it is helping us to extract these compounds unless you are part of a university or medical research. I strongly encourage people to STOP extracting DMT (or any other compound such as mescaline), I think what would truly help would be for people to go out there and get degrees and try to do legitimate research instead of illegal research. To me it seems like alot of people just want to get high and/or "just try it" without really caring about what happens to shamanic plants in the future. One thing that REALLY bothers me about the DMT-Nexus is that basically NOBODY grows anything (a few do, but most don't) and it seems like the use up TONS (literally 1000s of pounds) of Mimosa root bark and I bet less than 1% of them grow it. They say their too busy or w/e.... lazy bastards. To me it's actions like this that will get DMT containing plants like Mimosa made illegal! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDanger Posted January 31, 2010 Some interesting points! How nice... To me it seems that there are both pros and cons to both illegal and legal research. For underground research, cons are mainly restricted to logistics and safety; the law is not on your side and it's very difficult to procure the materials and equipment necessary for top-level synthesis and/or extraction. The other downside is that it's nigh on impossible to bring your findings into the mainstream (though it's not clear that doing so is necessarily a positive thing). The upside is that you don't have jungles of red tape or some naggy supervisor controlling what and how you want to investigate, nor does your work depend on funding granted by some money driven corporation. There's not much in the way of pure (legitimate) research these days; if the subject of your work doesn't immediately provide a strong profit motive, chances are you won't get the funding to investigate it because the money will be sooner allocated to something that will yield a profitable patent. This is generally applicable to all science, not just pharmacology. Good luck finding a taxable mass market for DMT. I think the more people we have going into universities and conducting legitimate, scientific investigation into the production and application of the substances we (the ethno community) seem to accept as medicines will ultimately be a good thing, but I don't think that necessarily requires the kitchen chemists among us to drop what they're doing and wait for Dr Phd to do the work for them. Should we deprive ourselves of the medicine we love in the hope that Bayer Ltd will some day give it to us? I doubt it. Breakthroughs in mainstream science rarely come straight from the lab. There's every chance that some Professor with an interest in ethnopharmacology will one day stumble across some anecdotal evidence for activity in some previously unexplored herb and will put his university education and Doctors Club connections to good use and make something legitimate and useful out of it. Whether or not relinquishing control of our pharmacopoeia to a beurocratic marketing executive with a degree in organic chemistry and shares in big pharma is a good idea is another question. Either way, shamanic plants will continue their downward spiral towards prohibition until mainstream medicine overwhelmingly convinces the uneducated masses that they have a legitimate role in modern life. Regardless, any research is better than no research, and any extraction/distribution/use of drugs should be done with the larger picture in mind. Anything less would be disrespectful and one way or another, such agents will (or at least should) get their comeuppance. In short, more degrees are good, but that doesn't mean we should stop doing what we truly believe in simply because some tertiary institution run like a business hasn't given us permission. Still, there's a massive amount of knowledge to be gained through educational organisations and a good education is really what the world needs right now, not just more spice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted January 31, 2010 Man you brought up some excellent points, give me a minute to read your post in-depth and prepare a response. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiral Posted February 1, 2010 The struggle of entheogens began in the 1960s.... I think at this stage in the fight for our recognition of legitimacy that it is actually hurting us more than it is helping us to extract these compounds unless you are part of a university or medical research. I strongly encourage people to STOP extracting DMT (or any other compound such as mescaline), I think what would truly help would be for people to go out there and get degrees and try to do legitimate research instead of illegal research. To me it seems like alot of people just want to get high and/or "just try it" without really caring about what happens to shamanic plants in the future. One thing that REALLY bothers me about the DMT-Nexus is that basically NOBODY grows anything (a few do, but most don't) and it seems like the use up TONS (literally 1000s of pounds) of Mimosa root bark and I bet less than 1% of them grow it. They say their too busy or w/e.... lazy bastards. To me it's actions like this that will get DMT containing plants like Mimosa made illegal! Interesting points...I was lambasted for raising a similar argument on another forum when I said that importing tonnes of MHRB into mainland US was hurting the mimosa native tree populations in SA and all it was doing was putting money into the pockets of shady entrepenuers, plus I find it tacky that people or are supposedly "switched on" or "enlightened" don't find anything wrong with buying a plant product that A- Potentially kills the tree B- encourages dangerous backyard chemistry by amateurs at best. C- Solvent and chem waste not being disposed of in an environment friendly or safe manner. D- encourages the middleman to pay meager amounts of money to the people/farmers, who actually go out and cut the root, while they sit back and collect huge amounts of profit. E- risks the ethno communities spirit and ideology just for the sake of getting high, buying bags of MHRB and showing the world how great their crystals are is a sure fire way to bring the wrong sort of unwanted attention down on us with the aftermath being that these trees or plants get made illegal to grow or even have as ornamentals. I actually agree with you whole heartedly on the stopping of importing MHRB into mainland US...it's nothing more than lazy bastards promoting an industry that goes against the grain of the ethno community at large, just so a few can look good and brag about how cool their chem is. their argument is always.."well we can't grow it so how else are we going to get our spice"..? I say to bad, if you can't grow it then it's the way life is...we can't always have everything we want. Now if one wants to grow his or her own plants, strip them down, perform some basic organic chemistry to collect some pure psychoactive compounds, that will only be consumed by themselves,..they use safe solvent, chem disposal methods... then that is absolutely fine...it's the importation and the grubby little market that these "switched on people" have created that is the issue. How would Australians feel if someone started up a market that sold acacia bark to people for an inflated cost, went around the bush stripping trees to feed a hungry market of lazy trippers who can't be bothered to learn or grow their own...we would be in an uproar I'm sure. Why is it any different with MHRB..? If a farmer wants to set up a legit crop that reproduces trees year after year for that specific market, then that would be great, but taking anything from the wild is totally bad karma,.. even if the plant or tree is a so called weed. it's interesting you raise this issue again because like I say I was flamed and lambasted heavily by members elsewhere for raising this subject...BIG TIME. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slybacon Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) I took the first steps towards "formal" education today. Studying Laboratory Techniques at Tafe. This will shorten my time at Uni if i decide to pursue a degree. I'm trying to keep an open mind before deciding what area I will specialise in. Really exciting to see what doors this will open for me. I have had the opportunity to do my own extractions, but i know i can get the spice off someone else who has strict morals. Why dig up the bush when i have friends that share. Edited February 1, 2010 by Slybacon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kindness Posted February 1, 2010 It's definately an interesting point. I wonder how big the impact on the environment the taking of MHRB is over there, just for the pure nature of the compound and it's affects - they aren't something that necessarily someone comes back for time and time again. Definately not like the mass plantations of another very popular plant which contains a far more morish compound. It strikes me as a bit of a hypocritical thing to do for some who claim to care so much about the environment and then proceed to chorry loads of rack up their nostrils... Just look at what that industry does to the countries and people involved. It's bloody hardcore. I know this is a little off the topic at hard but similar in a way so I thought I would put my two cents in. peace Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiral Posted February 1, 2010 There is plenty of hypocrisy in the "enlightened crew", this is not just about spice bandits in the US, just look at safrole and ecstasy...all those old world safrole trees being demolished in vietnam and cambodia then the waste and pollution from the jungle steam distilling labs being dumped in the forest,.. all so people can get off their dial at trance parties and wave their arms in the air whilst chanting ohm, aum, ohm,... mother earth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tripsis Posted February 1, 2010 This thread is good to see. I agree completely that wild-harvesting should cease completely, or in the very least, be reduced drastically. This is not just for DMT containing species, but for all ethnobotanicals and really, all resources. People need to think about the impact they are making when they decide to "get high" on the weekends (or buy a bookshelve at Ikea). They might complain that they can't grow it where they live, but if unsustainable harvesting continues, they'll drive these species extinct and then they won't be able to buy it either. As Chiral said, we can't always have everything we want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FancyPants Posted February 1, 2010 Surely there's other sources of spice trees native and endemic to the US? What about the phalaris sp? The US can even buy acacia seeds from over here can't they? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDanger Posted February 1, 2010 While we're on the subject, I've never heard of anyone extracting from Psychotria spp. Is there a particular reason? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiral Posted February 1, 2010 Phalaris is not an option in the US, you need way to much of it, acacia grows really well all across the US so there is no real excuse. Psychotria is definitely an option and ideal as it's all in the leaf so when the plants get going and they do once they are happy, then stripping the plant of a third of it's leaves or the standard 20gms of fresh leaf per person then it really does become a simple workable option. What i don't get is these people can be bothered to buy solvents and base etc...spend heaps on MHRB powder but can't be bothered in a lot of instances to plant a few trees or plants and wait become self sustaining with spice. A better option still is to purchase viridis leaf from Hawaii and use that instead of digging up roots etc, leaf grows back and from my understanding viridis grows beautifully in the Hawaiian climate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted February 1, 2010 Wat if the area is going to be demolished anywayz? Surely then it would be fine to use the waste product. If people harves tfrom tyhe wild for their own consumtion, I have no problem at all. For instance, so all shamans farm their own plants? No, they let nature provide for them. In the case of the poor environmental practices, I completely aggree, but it is a result of prohibition. Stop doing it all together and THEY win. Authorized, governed and monitored companies dump millions of tonnes of illegal and legal waste into the environment every year. Every effor t should be made by the backyard cook to dispose of dangerous substances correctly, but in the end. It's hardly even a drop in the ocean. Just in perth they dump Dioxine just metre's from the shore lione and have recieved approval for another 3 years worth of approved dumping at the site. Unsustanable harvesting should be stopped, but if it is sustanable, I see no reason to deny very poor people a much needed income. Alot of the time, education is the key for these people, so maybe get down there and let them know, they can make more dollars dealing direct or sustanable by planting new crops. There are always pro's and con's, it's hard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rahli Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) While we're on the subject, I've never heard of anyone extracting from Psychotria spp. Is there a particular reason? Chacruna is the bomb!!! If you can get a couple of healthy specimens going you'll never venture into the bush again. I've never seen the need. Homegrown is all I've known!!! I hope you can claim the same Teotz seeing as though you so veminently preach this ideal. Edited February 1, 2010 by rahli Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 1, 2010 I do grow Psychotria, it's one of my favorite plants to cultivate! I have many different strains! However, I don't extract ANYTHING (at all, what-so-ever, nothing) chemically. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiral Posted February 2, 2010 If people harvest from the wild for their own consumption, I have no problem at all. For instance, so all shamans farm their own plants? No, they let nature provide for them. There is a vast difference between native communities and shaman using and understanding their local plant life for healing,... and shady entrepreneurs who pay money for someone to go and hack root bark, package it, and sell it to whitey over the border for profit. I think it's even marginally okay for an individual to wander out to the bush, identify and understand a certain tree or plant, harvest an amount thoughtfully for their own consumption. On the topic of chemistry, well it should be left to the individual to make those choices. Consuming ethno's in their natural way through brews or teas etc is always going to be a safer and cleaner option for all concerned, it's no different to picking some apples and carrots and making yourself a juice. I think after a while people get carried away and think they have to continuously consume psychoactive's and to feed their needs they start doing chemistry to provide themselves with more product that is easier to consume over longer periods. Chem is neither bad or good it merely is a form of extracting and isolating a certain compound so the user isn't consuming other unwanted or dangerous alkaloids. It really isn't any different to essential oil production and I don't think anyone has a problem with that in this community. Some of these forums and places that flaunt local and state laws by showing and bragging about how cool their rocks and crystals is pretty unnecessary, although people will always want to read them and learn or copy to see if they can achieve something similar...it's curiosity. cup of caapi and acacia leaf tea anyone... ### Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted February 2, 2010 How do the harvesting techniques harm the plant? Approximately how many of these plants exist? At what rate are the plants being lost, how fast are they disappearing? What is the annual consumption of the plant for psychoactive purposes? What is the annual consumption of the plant for medical and cosmetics purposes? I read someone say that acacia will grow across the US. What form of acacia will withstand the winter lows of -30 C? where I live? What about where my parents live? It gets -50 C there in winter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tripsis Posted February 2, 2010 How do the harvesting techniques harm the plant? It is the root bark we are discussing, right? How could harvesting it not harm the plant? Considering that accessing the roots would involve digging, it would probably not only be detrimental to the trees themselves, but to surrounding organisms and environment too. You have some good questions Archaea, which provoke thought instead of relying on assumptions, but not all of them would be easily answered without serious research being carried out, something beyond the means of most of us. In the meantime, until such studies are carried out, I think it is safe to assume that wild-harvesting is almost always not a sustainable practice, as history as shown us, time and time again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiral Posted February 2, 2010 How do the harvesting techniques harm the plant? Approximately how many of these plants exist? At what rate are the plants being lost, how fast are they disappearing? What is the annual consumption of the plant for psychoactive purposes? What is the annual consumption of the plant for medical and cosmetics purposes? I read someone say that acacia will grow across the US. What form of acacia will withstand the winter lows of -30 C? where I live? What about where my parents live? It gets -50 C there in winter. Well i'll do some assuming then and say that stripping bark or cutting roots can only be detrimental to a plant, unless you can show me that it's beneficial then I'll have to assume it's not. As for how fast they are being lost or disappearing...well I mean come on, that's an impossible question so lets just once again assume that when you just take and take and take then that is also not doing the populations any service. The annual consumption of what plant...? If we are talking mimosa then only those who are harvesting would have any idea of dried plant matter and root in weight being sold annually. Acacia do in fact grow across America in many places but obviously when you quote extreme conditions like where ever you are then only you can supply us with any info regarding local flora and fauna. There are many nookers as you know Arch that are growing acacia quite readily and I seem to remember that a nooker pointed out that there was indeed quite a lot of madenii, obtusifolia and various other acaia like desmanthus scattered around the country in places like cali and through the right through the midwest. I don't know what where your parents live has to do with it, but yes it seems quite cold where they are, do they want some spice...? Having said all that does living in a place where conditions are not suited to growing DMT containing plants give one authorization to import root bark from Mexico...? People in Australia have extreme living conditions and cold climates too but they don't go trying to import root bark from another country, they prolly try and find it locally through friends or they take trips to hike or camp and gather their own and take it home. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted February 2, 2010 Well i'll do some assuming then and say that stripping bark or cutting roots can only be detrimental to a plant, unless you can show me that it's beneficial then I'll have to assume it's not. Bansai Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slybacon Posted February 2, 2010 What sort of time frame would we be talking about from seedling to harvest to grow Acacia for extraction purposes.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alice Posted February 2, 2010 What sort of time frame would we be talking about from seedling to harvest to grow Acacia for extraction purposes.... Probably 2 years. Preferably double that. Most acacias get big incredibly fast, but the general consensus is that older material is better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tripsis Posted February 2, 2010 Acacias are pioneer species, meaning they grow quickly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rahli Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) Acacias are pioneer species, meaning they grow quickly. So are Mimosa sp. Farming a sustainable supply of this species would not be that hard. I doubt they even grow that old before producing a heap of seed and dying. Though I can't be sure as I've a pic of a giant old Jeruma tree on the net, though I question its authenticity. Edited February 2, 2010 by rahli Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiral Posted February 2, 2010 here is an image of mimosa root dug up and cut.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
