Apology

[theobromos]

I am sorry if my views cause offence. But I will not apologise for my opinion. It is only an opinion. The single word that proves my view for me that Americans are gullible is "Bush". Prove me wrong by putting the bloke in jail for his crimes against humanity. Anything less is criminal neglect by all Americans. You are the only ones who can stop him.

Preferably question both him and Rumsfeld naked with truncheons up their asses.,

I am not saying that all Americans are gullible, only that a greater portion of Americans are gullible than Europeans. We are naturally more suspicious, is this a good thing?

Why is this in the Ethnobotany Forum? Because I am stoned out of my brains, I suppose.

[theobromos]

I have just read Torsten's comments in the Smoking Khat thread.

Is it racist to have views concerning general traits of a country? Americans are not a race.

I don't understand "Please make sure that your statements refer to certain people", do you want me to insult someone in particular by calling them gullible? I don't believe that it is just the voters who are resposible for Bush being in power. There are sins of omission, too. I am not referring to anyone in particular but to a country of more than a quarter of a billion people. As statistically more gullible.

I have nothing against Stonehenge and don't believe I am insulting him personally. If he doesn't like my views he is welcome to discuss them. If he wants to take exception to them, fine, but I won't change them until I have a reason. I don't understand how anyone could be proud of being American in these times. I am not proud to be British. Perhaps all the Americans here feel no connection with the general culture and politics of the USA but the country is the sum of its inhabitants.

The culture and politics of the USA is based entirely on money and media control (and they have instituted the same filthy system in Japan and want to do the same in Iraq). The advert is their highest art form.

[ 11. May 2004, 23:38: Message edited by: theobromos ]

[mescalito]

Well Theo,I certainly don't advocate,nor understand Mr Howards agenda either.

But I AM proud of my human roots and their struggle to oppose control.

If that makes me human or even Aussie,then I am what I am and ready to defend.

I am in a unique position of having no genetic offspring,yet loved as if they were actually mine....strange to me.

My heritage has cleared out without a trace yet my adoptive family accepts me as their own....so in my view-where you're at and who you are related to,means shit..reality is in YOUR face and happening NOW.

You're dead right on the generalisations.

I can't help but feel sorrow for those who are swayed by 'popular' beliefs.

Oh...and commercialism

[Rev]

Its Easy to think that Theo but you really have to take a step back, and critically evaluate your train of thought. You are making an assumption that a country of 300 million people plus of a very diverse Ethnic extraction represent a single entity of single mind and agreement. This is obviouslly a gross generalisation and im sure you know this, and your use of it merely represents an offletting of stoned anguish

The truth is of course is that we were all lied to - and most people fell for it - and while we were all here all the time frustrated at the blatant lies used to justify- well- everything, the general myopic public still trusted their officials. Maybe it was disbelief that they could be brazenly lied to - a disbelief that allowed the alternative of faulty inteligence to sit as a more comfortable explanation later.

Bush went to war for oil and his own fundamentalist christian ideals and yet the american public went to war because they feared WMD and flet sorry for the iraqi people

just like Australians supported Interfet (?) in its role in Timor because we wanted to help them keep their independednce / While all the time the Aust govt. only gives a damn about the Timor sea oil worth 22 billion, and not the Timorese whove theyve repeatedly sold out over the last 30 years.

they give us one reason - a noble one - and yet operate under another. I think most people are in Denial still, even here in Aust where we get a pretty good media balance in SBS and ABC

rather than blame i pity the American public for all the thing they have been denied that might allow them to see what we all see quite plainly.

They have no real welfare or public healthcare system, and an education system that definitely doesnt encourage challenging authority amongst the brightest minds. They have rampant cross media ownership and politically there is no Left to american politics, there is right, far right and then the religious and neoconservatives. The purges in the 50's and the lingering stigma did more damage to american social and political growth than anyone cares to mention

With Not even a binary political system what hope do you have of a healthy democracy

Here labour has gone centre right but we still have the greens to stand up and say whats needs saying. To be like america all we have to do is lose them.

[Rev]

And the biggets lesson from the whole Fiasco i think was this.

Democracy is bullshit except at the ballot box

You can get 4 billion people to march against war but the guys with the means and motive dont give a fuck and will go to war anyway

The only way to prevent it happening again is simply to vote for people whose agenda doesnt include war

Prevention is the only cure becauise once they get in there is no effective therapy - they are untouchable and they know it

[Rev]

sorry but cant edit posts

just want to add that only on voting day are we considered seriously by pollies and we can be called 'the Australian people', 'citizen' or 'voter', the rest of the time they are happy to call us 'consumers' because we are a s powerless as a feedlot cow

[theobromos]

I want an apology for reville's insult that I have made an assumption that I quite clearly have not. That really pisses me off.

[Stonehenge]

theo, I will accept your apology even though you mixed it with a lot of political statements. I'm not sure this even belongs in ethnobotony. If I had known it would blow up like this I'd have just sent you a pm. Then again, knocking a whole group for the actions of some isn't fair to those who do not agree with the actions in the first place.

You mention Bush. I hate the guy myself. Did you know he wasn't even elected by a majority? He lost the popular vote but got in anyway. This shows a flaw in the electoral system used in the USA. It has nothing to do with gullibility. Likewise, many people were against the iraq invasion and other actions but the decision was made by one person. He has taken away most of our civil liberties under the guise of fighting terrorism. I will rejoice if he and his cronies are tossed in the street in the next elections.

I will say that most people seem to believe what they are told by the news media which is dominated by large money interests, not the public interest. This seems to also be the case in Britain and many other countries.

Stoney

[Flip]

I think that there's more going on here than offhanded comments.

[nabraxas]

stoney's right there.

on voting day are we considered seriously by pollies and we can be called 'the Australian people', 'citizen' or 'voter', the rest of the time they are happy to call us 'consumers' because we are a s powerless as a feedlot cow ---like he said this doesn't apply for americans.

it's not fair to critique americans because ov Bush---most ov them didn't vote for him, don't want him---& yet he remains.

america publishes more english languge books per year than any other country---in such a highly literate society there JUST HAS TO BE a more thoughtful side than the brash, disney consumerist, MTV view we are given by the media.

[gomaos]

it's not fair to critique americans because ov Bush---most ov them didn't vote for him, don't want him---& yet he remains.

Why not? I also "critique" those Australian Voters who vote for Howard.

I think the majority of those must be plain stupid when it comes to politics...

and the situation in America:

I admit, i watched the jerry Springer show daily.

For the main reason, that relationship-breakups are major occasions in one's life and imprint themselves on the person, so I watched the show to gain more insight into those sort of things.

But lately... the shows shown here must be 2 years old or so...in every show there is a segment where they shout:

"USA.... USA.... USA..."

And some dork, either one the Springer team, or one of the "clients" mentions "that great president bush" and then the american Flag waves through the picture.

I find that very frightening.

And I'm immediately compelled to compare this propaganda to Hitler's Nazi brainwashing.

Very frightening.

I don't watch the show anymore.

Fark those nazis!

Then again, I would never say:"All americans are Nazis... of course not. There's always those who disagree.

And it looks as if that mutha f...er bush might lose the next elections, and with a democratic President the Americans will be only hated half as much.

And again: I don't consider any race on earth entirely good or entirely bad.

All humans are the same, really.

And everyone is different.

[ 12. May 2004, 10:20: Message edited by: gomaos ]

[Stonehenge]

gomaos, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Those examples you gave are examples of media propaganda which I spoke against. Big media has become more and more consolidated as each year goes on. Need I say more than Rupert Murdoch? It's not just him but the media as a whole which is acting much like the petroleum cartels. Their main objective is not to tell you what is going on in the world and to entertain you, their objective is to sell you something.

Who here thinks their news is unbiased? Big media in the usa has Bush as a client. He is paying for this special treatment, it doesn't come cheap but neither does it cost him much. A little legislation here, a crooked appointment there and the job is done. There is Michael Powell, son of the secretary of defence who was appointed head of the FCC which regulates radio, tv and other forms of communication in the usa. As has been said, we didn't vote for the sob so don't hold him against us.

[smogs]

interesting debate but should probably be on a different forumn... unless the "bush" evry1 is talking about i a plant? if so im very lost

[theobromos]

The debate is here because green sap runs in my veins.

Have I at any point said that all Americans are gulls? NO

I think that many Americans, perhaps the majority, have suffered from their culture to the point where they are unable to make reasoned choices.

Perhaps the failure of the democratic system in America is not your fault, Stonehenge and nabraxas. However, it is the fault of many American adults who have let things slide to the point where Bush can murder with impunity. As have many of his predecessors. Were they brought to justice?

Yes, I know Bush got in because of his crooked family and did not win the vote. So why is he President? Because few people really care about democracy in America.

Those who voted for the impossible third parties in the last US election are also responsible. Sins of omission. Is it difficult to work out that Bush getting to be President is a Very Bad Thing for the Environment? Fuck the Green Party, vote against the F(a)ustians.

Some friends have done Bush's astrological chart and say that he will be dead or in prison before the end of the year. I hope that it will be Americans who achieve this. Before the whole world dies from the malice of the control freaks.

[ 12. May 2004, 13:22: Message edited by: theobromos ]

[smogs]

i think its funny (in the non-ha ha sense) that USA is a "democracy" yet the democratically elected person has been voted for by less than 10% of the population (or something like that).

im not saying its a good thing or a bad thing... just something i think is strange.

[theobromos]

I am rather pro-democracy and think it is a very bad thing.

I have given up trying to find the report I remember, it was probably a silly metastudy anyway. But I am I being racist in saying that Germans respond better to ulcer placebos than blood-pressure placebos? And then suggesting that they are culturally or genetically inclined to better mental control of their stomachs than their circulation?

http://www.freeindiamedia.com/book_review/...book_review.htm

[psylogic]

I find it quite ironic that a country built on the ideals of free speach and democracy are becoming the thought police of the world.

[Flip]

I'm reminded of what Ben Franklin said in response to a question regarding the type of government

the founding fathers were constructing.

His answer: "A republic, if you can keep it."

I fear that America is now a oligarchy

run by group elites (with an eye at globalization)

that are able to sway the masses at home

with feel good smoke and mirrors

and leave the rest with a bitter choice of voting for the lesser evil.

The American system is effective at negating descent

and swaying the masses so that those that are aware and not afraid,

are isolated and emasculated.

Sadly, I believe that the situation will systematically worsen ... before it gets better.

[ 12. May 2004, 19:25: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Thelema]

Bush should have been impeached long before it got to Iraq over the whole florida thing.

The thing I dont get is why everyone thinks its such a huge surprise. I watched nearly every single hour of footage of the iraq war, missed some of the al jazeera stuff but SBS was good on that, and never was there any attempt at substantial justification. And now we are all meant to be surprised that....there's no substantial justification?

And the stupid media broadcasting the fact that terrorists are kidnapping people, I mean great, if there was a machiavellian media whitewash on such issues, then kidnapping people would have no force!

[Torsten]

Theo, my comments were because we have had several people leave the forums in protest of the rampant anti americanism here. These people were mostly (all but one) against Bush and his policies and yet they felt tarred with the same brush.

I am very much anti the american government myself, but we have to be careful to direct our anger at the right people.

Your comments about statistical facts are valid, but dangerous ground. Just because statistically pakistanis eat more curry than the average englishman doesn't make it acceptable to call them 'curry munchers'. And just because germans are statistically more arrogant than australians doesn't mean we can call germsna arrogant. Such generalisations are racism. I know that you are educated enough to know the definition of racism, so don't split hairs please. Much of what defines racism is the perception it creates rather than the perfect language used to deliver statistical data. I think you have enough minority traits yourself to know the negative effect of ---isms.

This thread can stay in this forum as it is a direct result of another thread in this forum. I will move it to chill once it has cooled off.

[Thelema]

I never really understood the public definition of racism. I mean

1)Once I wrote on an ex-girlfriends arm "my little blackbird" (she was black) and she called that racism. I dont get that, since it didnt impart anything negative.

2) look at the whole barbie scandal. First, Mattel get accused of being racist because they DONT have any black dolls. So then they create a black doll and get called racist BECAUSE they felt a need to especially create a black doll.

3)nowdays it would be considered racist for a white actor to darken his skin to play a black person in a movie, even if that black character is not "taking the piss".

I just dont get it. Ive had indigenous australians call me a "stupid racist white cunt", as if that's NOT racist.

It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me.

[Mr. Kratom]

theobromos:

I am sorry if my views cause offence. But I will not apologise for my opinion. It is only an opinion. The single word that proves my view for me that Americans are gullible is "Bush". Prove me wrong by putting the bloke in jail for his crimes against humanity. Anything less is criminal neglect by all Americans. You are the only ones who can stop him.

Preferably question both him and Rumsfeld naked with truncheons up their asses.,

I am not saying that all Americans are gullible, only that a greater portion of Americans are gullible than Europeans. We are naturally more suspicious, is this a good thing?

Why is this in the Ethnobotany Forum? Because I am stoned out of my brains, I suppose.

Note: Please don't be offended by the following comments - I'm trying to be logical, not emotional.

Theo,

I think your post is rather ironic, in that it is a perfect example of exactly what is wrong here in America: Polarization. The problem is that there is no compromise anymore. Everyone has their own special interests, and no-one is willing to give an inch on those interests.

Lets take the environment, for example. I personally think that safe air, food, and water should be the top environmental priorities. And although these ideas are likely shared by all environmentalists, there are sub-factions that have other, higher, priorities - species protection, wildlife habitat protection, and so on. Instead of trying to reach a logical, common-ground, and realistic list of priorities, each faction insists that their own agenda must come first. The result is anarchy, and it makes it difficult to gain wide public support because of all the differences of opinions between factions.

Furthermore, America is a very culturally diverse country. Every culture has its own agenda and priorities. Lets take blacks, for example. I think it is probably fair to say that blacks (in America) share moral views that are more in common with typical right-wing Christians - i.e. Republicans - rather than left-wing Democrats. Rich or poor, black families tend to have strong religious beliefs. Yet, blacks tend to vote Democrat, primarily because of the Republicans historical opposition to Affirmative Action.

Americal also has a lot of poor immigrants. These people often have very different priorities than others. Take Cuban exiles - they'll vote for anyone opposed to Castro.

And, going back to your opinions on Iraq - your statements are rather extreme - referring to "crimes against humanity". Now, I agree that Bush didn't tell the truth about WMD. Yet, I also think that in the long run, Iraq will be better off without Saddam. He did kill a lot of innocent people, you know. And, yes, the U.S. may be better off as well. Or it could all get worse, and never improve. Regardless of the motive, I am glad that Saddam is gone. Only time will tell whether the lives lost as a result of the invasion were in vain, or not. I'm not a stupid, nor ignorant, person - yet I have these views. Clearly there has to be room for negotiation between your view on Iraq and my own.

Also, let me share my views on Israel and the Palestinians. My opinion is that in any conflict between the powerful and the oppressed, it is the powerful that must make concession. Those who are oppressed - the Palestinians - do not have anything to lose. Thus, Israel must make heavy concessions in order to solve this conflict.

Argh, I have to go to a meeting, so let me wrap this up:

Due to vast cultural differences, it will always be difficult to reach reasonable compromise. However, the various special-interest groups could help this by reaching compromise amongst themselves first.

Everyone - including you and me - should strive to avoid polarization of views. Try to compromise - try to see the other side.

If enough people could do this, we could form a lobby perhaps strong enough to cause political change.

Gotta go.

Mike, aka Mr. Kratom

[Stonehenge]

Very well said, Mr Kratom. theo, you have repeated your slur against americans once again.

"I think that many Americans, perhaps the majority, have suffered from their culture to the point where they are unable to make reasoned choices."

You call this thread "apology" but all you do is repeat negative statements against 300 million people. What is this doing in ethnobotony in the first place? If you want to express hatred toward America or any other country or group, there are ample forums for that. There are forums on this board for politics.

I'm not going to debate all politics in this forum. That is going off on a huge tangent though I did try to explain some of the reasons for what has gone on. Are you so proud of your Tony Blair? He is in Bush's pocket, don't you know?

Is having a tiny bit of respect for one another too much to ask?

[ 13. May 2004, 05:32: Message edited by: Stonehenge ]

[gomaos]

Furthermore, America is a very culturally diverse country. Every culture has its own agenda and priorities. Lets take blacks, for example. I think it is probably fair to say that blacks (in America) share moral views that are more in common with typical right-wing Christians - i.e. Republicans - rather than left-wing Democrats. Rich or poor, black families tend to have strong religious beliefs. Yet, blacks tend to vote Democrat, primarily because of the Republicans historical opposition to Affirmative Action

Well at least they do vote democrat, which for me definitely is the LESSER EVIL.

I also have made the observation, that oppressed people tend to be right-wing...

an example from my taxi-driving-time:

Passenger, young woman, indigenous australian:

"Could you put some better music on I don't like that crap!(Alternative Rock on JJJ)"

"Yes, of course, Madam, so what do you like?"

"I like (insert popular recent country stars here, I've forgotten their names)..."

"Wow; but excuse me, aren't they rather red-neck?

For sure they'd be racist against the blacks..."

"Hmm, i don't understand... i just like that music... with tha other crap I don't even understand what they are saying..."

"So you do like the music of your oppressors?"

She didn't undertstand...

I also think that many migrants from asian countries are very redneck.

They are very materialistic, always want to conform with society, have the latest cars, sterile houses, go to church all the time...

just the same thinking they were used to when they were still in their countries...

Now, saying that, does that make me a racist?

I also think it's a joke, that black people can use the word "nigga" all the time, but when a white person says it it's racist...

that is racist in itself:

If I can't say a word because I'm white, then I'm being discriminated against...

[Auxin]

Torsten:

Theo, my comments were because we have had several people leave the forums in protest of the rampant anti americanism here....

I am very much anti the american government myself, but we have to be careful to direct our anger at the right people.

Thanks T.

I dont want to go too deep into this for odvious reasons- many of you know how I feel anyway, it is sufficient to say that I'm a sentient being first and an american... somewhere way down the list. My first loyalty is to the general welfare of all without consideration being placed on their location.

I do know where my loyalties lie- and its not in a war criminal government that drops radiological bombs on children so they cant grow up to be soldiers. And I do try to do my part to change it bit by bit.

Now to figure out why this is in this forum- hmmm... is it cause some of our explosives are made from glycerin derived from peanut oil :confused: