Apology

[waterdragon]

i would expect the americans on this board and many others to see through the bush smokescreen, and i'm not disappointed. beggars belief though on some other forums (which i won't name) where supposedly enlightened peeps swallow the current rhetoric, my query is how does one consume a sacred substance and still not SEE through the lies, still think it's okay to invade,kill, lie,steal,abuse,etc. is compassion so hard to grasp?

[chief23]

There are many American's with similar attitudes, take Michael Moore for example. This is a rich man's war, enslaving the poor soldiers, so all of us (rich-western folk) can burn more oil in our cars to get to work each day and pollute the environment. The same shit happens in this country too!

Chief

[Rev]

"I am not saying that all Americans are gullible, only that a greater portion of Americans are gullible than Europeans. We are naturally more suspicious, is this a good thing?"

Theo is this not what you said?

Really....

In what position are you to make such judgements with accuracy? What super accurate polling system are you using to extract thius information and in what context?

From where i stand i could make a very different judgemnet - such as that Europeans are just as blind and biased but in different matters, matters that might seem self evident as part of that social dynamic but when viewed rationally are merely just another viewpoint transformed to dogma throu reiteration over years by European cultures

when i see Australian media i dont see the voices of dissent, i dont see my own values aired very often at all. why would the USA or Europe be any different. Michael moore and his new film are an excelent and contemporary example of this

There is such a stranglehold in power over what is broadcast that you really would know anything at all about the vast numbers of dissenting opinions to the way the society is being guided. they are simply silenced - by the gun in some places and by proprietary and regualtory exclusion here

fore example you cant just start braodcasting what you think on the radio waves- youd be put in jail for violating the codes the govt uses to sanitise what is aired

I do apologise however for an over reaction and embellishment, a generalisation of my own i guess, in describing your actions. I hope it makes no permanent offence

[theobromos]

Of course no offence, reville, I was just making a point that I am not bothered by apparently offensive opinions.

Stonehenge, did you not read my posts above? I am not proud to be British. Mostly because the British government is helping that of America to destroy the peace of the world. If I were in Britain now I would be working against Tony Blair every way I could. I respect you, but don't you see I am only slurring the majority of Americans? That is only slighly over 150 million. The other 150 million I know to contain some of the most marvellous people I have had the pleasure to meet or encounter in the Internet. Respect, mon. But no respect for the childrapers and their assistants.

My original statement was that Americans are "disposed" to be more gullible. What did you understand by this word?

I apologised in the first sentence of this thread. I did not repeat my slur but in my rush forgot to add the "majority" there. I am sorry for that.

Torsten, curry is the national dish of Britain, official. You can call me a curry-munching pom baldie if you want. (I had three feet of hair removed yesterday.) I have my own definition of racism that doesn't appear to be shared by anyone. "Being nasty to someone because of their race." Not politically correct, I just try to be correct.

Mr Kratom, the crimes against humanity for which your government and its electorate has responsibility include;

1) supporting the imposition of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Yes, he was one of yours, an American recruit for the CIA. Everything he did was the fault of the US government. They didn't remove him very neatly considering how unpopular he was did they?

2) the murder of Allende and imposition of the government of Pinochet in Chile

3) Similar actions in the whole of South and Central America and Asia too numerous and depressing to recount which have destroyed democracy and in many places the whole culture of the country.

4) the training and funding of terrorism in all parts of the world (including the allowance of fundraising for terrorists in Northern Ireland where my Great Aunt lost her legs to a terrorist bomb). Who trained Bin Laden, when he was one of theirs?

5) internal repression and murder, in prisons, reservations and ghettos. Here I would include the supply and propagation of crack in black areas by the CIA.

6) the embargo of Cuba which stopped the only real experiment in Socialism ever attempted in a whole country.

7) The propagation of GMOs without proper testing and against the wishes of the majority. Just for the money.

I feel like adding the Disney version of Hercules but sometimes even my black humour fails me. Britain has not been nice very often either. But we did at least have a philosophy of "winning hearts and minds". The American government philosophy appears to be "we do it and you should goddam like it because we are wonderful."

And what about flip's implication that all smokers are beyond reason? Are all smokers unthinking animals? Smokism is not illegal, I suppose.

[The Dude]

I totally agree with rev that many dissenting views are just silenced therefore we don't really exactly know who is pro the govt and who isnt. True there are polling systems but i suspect they aren't too accurate.

Like to get this clear. Bush did NOT win the election. The majority did NOT vote for him, so to say Americans are stupid for voting for him is wrong, seeing as he cheated his way in. Sure it would have helped if more people voted for gore (the lesser evil) instead of nader or -even worse- no one at all. And all the people that voted for bush, well don't get me started on them. Sure everyone makes mistakes but common!

Anyone remember the lead up to the election, Bush was stuttering and fumbling, mumbling incoherent alcoholic slurred talk. (ok thats unfair i know he's off the booze now To paraphraze michael moore - when they say Anyone can be president - They mean it! That is ofcourse as long as your daddy is an ex president with a whole load of political friends and contacts in power and vast vast amounts of cash from his oil business.

hmm i seem to be digressing somewhat. Theboroms I am sympathetic to your view and i suppose i generally agree but im also generally against genearlisations. True Americans have proved on many occasions to be dumb rightwing christian creationist redneck hicks - i can still laugh (maybe i should cry) remembering cnnnn street interviews of people in america - im sure they only aired the super stupid but MY FREAKIN GOD! It's really incomprehensible what grown adults can say, hillarious really.

But focusing on the idiots we forget that there are many intelligent individuals scattered amongst the masses of idiots (im sorry but it SEEMS the majority IS stupid. Of course i have no real way of knowing having never set foot in america).

The smart thinking Yanks (j/k you can pay out my polish-ness if ya wish) need to vote for Kerry i don't think he's holding true to his original beliefs - doing the whole flip flop thing- but ABBA - "anything but bush again".

If Bush is re-elected i will have lost my faith in the american peopleand i have a strong feeling it will get a LOT worse before it gets any better.

by 2005 there is meant to be mandatory military service for 18-25 year old men and women with the period of time and the selection process to be decided by the president. - scary!

hmm whilst on my small political rant: Howard is a wanker Downer is a spoilt brat of a childish idiotic foreign affairs minister that says,

"ok america if you feel like holding david hicks indefinitely without charges and torture him and whatnot then that's just fine. Just let us know if you ever feel like letting him go so we can have him back and publicly chastise him over how shockingly disgraceful his actions have been"

instead of saying "Fuck you america We're not gonna tolerate this shit holding him without ANY charges, we want our Citizen back home! - there we'll sort out any shit he May have done! instead of having him under your, many times proven to be, inhumane control"

this shit just well... shits me!

my 200cents.

[ 14. May 2004, 01:57: Message edited by: El Duderino ]

[The Dude]

hey theobromos what you talkin about? last election Saddam got 100% of the votes right? and you say he's unpopular

also your post reminds me..

Mr. Kratom. Yes Saddam is an evil man - he's in the axis of evil which to my limited understanding of bush's religious theory means that all of iraq (and co.) are evil right? I remember this one really evil thing Saddam did was when he used chemical weapons on a shitload of dissident civilians cuz well, they didn't like saddam, yeh hmm and i think the US might of known about it, yeh im pretty sure they DID and you know what they didn't bat an eye. Funny how only after Bush Snr backed out of his agreement and decided he DIDN'T want Kuwait attacked and started gulf war 1 after that - did Saddam become the evil bastard we know him as now.

Hmm floods of anti-bush thoughts coming back to me. You know what they said? THey said "all right all you rebels just keep fighting the evil saddam army we're behind you all the way we'll help you out with our loads of ammunition and huge guns" shorty after they pissed off, leaving .. -numbers escape me - but a LOT of people to be slaughtered by saddams army.

Good thing Bush Jnr got his act together and decded to help the poor Iraquis his dad had shitted on earlier.

[ 14. May 2004, 02:14: Message edited by: El Duderino ]

[Darklight]

El Duderino:

If Bush is re-elected i will have lost my faith in the american people

I said something very similar about Australians when Jo Bjelke-Peterson was re-elected continuously in Qld ( well, yes there was the electorate gerrymander, but the profile of his typical voter for the last two elections was certainly young enough to know better ) And I have remained a committed misanthrope ever since.

Many of you here are too young to remember the days of Qld under Sir Jo, which is almost a shame. The only real sad thing about his political decline is that generations of young Australians will never understand why the jokes were so funny. Or what the finer points of it all were- so it can never happen again.

My favorite quote ( actually I paraphrase here ) was from an ABC ( national broadcaster ) TV interview

Journo: Sir Jo, what do you understand about the doctorine of the separation of powers under the Westminster System?

Sir Jo: Well...well... you explain it to me and I'll tell you whether you're right or not

[Rev]

As it hasnt been said before in this thread id like to point out that The American like the rest of us are always in a position where real power is never given out in elections to just anyone, least of all the peoples choice

Real Power isnt given away that easily

So many systems and counter balances exist to prevent this

In the UK you have the House of lords - an intitution with no logical place in a democracy

In the US ex-cons cant vote (rules out any chance of reform of a discriminatory law) and election contributions are uncapped and phenomenal in size

And here we have all sorts of issues from the constitutional issues, to govt departmnets not answerable to the public (TGA) and lots more

I held Americans partly responsible for their own deaths at the time of the WTC collapse on the basis that they were a democracy and so were direcly responsible for the actions of their govts.

I retract that statement on consideration of the problems in accountability and transparancy we see all around us.

Unfortunately as the power base is SO strong in the US right now (guns plus money - everyone else has one or the other but the US has both)

i see no hope of reform - seriously who would give away world domination to the unwashed masses?

Its a problem that the US may only see real democratic reform well AFTER it falls from the top, and its easy to see that'll be a violent fall with an aftermath of worldwide factional unrest and Economic upheaval with ruthless dictatorships and counter-revolutions all over Im sure that it will make the 1940's sound like a nice time to live

But thats the way it goes...you cant choose when you live, who knows might not even happen another 50 years yet but it always happens eventually

[theobromos]

The evil thing Saddam did was to ask people to pay for his oil in euros. Daddy Bush didn't like that.

[friendly]

Rev: You're pretty close. The right-wing neo-con plan is to collapse the economy, institute martial law and then declare the USA the dominion of Jesus (thereby ursurping Him from the rest of the world), announce the USA is a Christian Nation, the Home of Jesus and throw out the contsitution, the bill of rights and personal freedoms (those still remaining) and run things like the muslims do--strictly by the word of God.

If you don't think so, check out Dominion University. GWB is on the board and will be declared the representative of Jesus on earth.

How's that for a stomach-turning thought?

[smogs]

i tell you what im sick of hearing

"america is the greatest democracy on earth" or greatest example of

when in my opinion it isnt a democracy! if less than half the country votes how can it be?

it was on letterman last night

[ 14. May 2004, 12:32: Message edited by: smogs ]

[gomaos]

The right-wing neo-con plan is to collapse the economy, institute martial law and then declare the USA the dominion of Jesus (thereby ursurping Him from the rest of the world), announce the USA is a Christian Nation, the Home of Jesus and throw out the contsitution, the bill of rights and personal freedoms (those still remaining) and run things like the muslims do--strictly by the word of God.

sounds like true horror show, real ,real scary...

the 3rd reich couldn't have been scarier...

I want to be as far away from the US as i can...

ohgod...(who?)

I already am!

(and still can't get away from them!)

[ 14. May 2004, 14:54: Message edited by: gomaos ]

[theobromos]

Sorry, unreservedly. I have gone over the top.

I could blame the drugs but it probably was the start of the hayfever season. I have my filter masks at hand now and should be a little better-tempered. I have been snotty in both senses of the word.

Sorry again.

[Thelema]

No, Theo, you ARE right.

America Sucks, it's just that AmericaN's don't suck.

[chief23]

Psychic spies from China

Try to steal your mind’s elation

Little girls from Sweden

Dream of silver screen quotations

And if you want these kind of dreams

It’s Californication

It’s the edge of the world

And all of western civilization

The sun may rise in the East

At least it settles in the final location

It’s understood that Hollywood

sells Californication

Pay your surgeon very well

To break the spell of aging

Celebrity skin is this your chin

Or is that war your waging

Chorus:

First born unicorn

Hard core soft porn

Dream of Californication

Dream of Californication

Marry me girl be my fairy to the world

Be my very own constellation

A teenage bride with a baby inside

Getting high on information

And buy me a star on the boulevard

It’s Californication

Space may be the final frontier

But it’s made in a Hollywood basement

Cobain can you hear the spheres

Singing songs off station to station

And Alderon’s not far away

It’s Californication

Born and raised by those who praise

Control of population everybody’s been there

and

I don’t mean on vacation

Chorus

Destruction leads to a very rough road

But it also breeds creation

And earthquakes are to a girl’s guitar

They’re just another good vibration

And tidal waves couldn’t save the world

From Californication

Pay your surgeon very well

To break the spell of aging

Sicker than the rest

There is no test

But this is what you’re craving

Chorus

[sorry, I couldn't help it! But I think this sums it up for me! - Chief]

[infinite_monkey]

having read this whole thread as it has developed here is my spin on things,

read 1984, its all there

thats our future

and i dont think we can stop it

[Torsten]

Originally posted by friendly:

The right-wing neo-con plan is to collapse the economy....

I checked out old dominion university http://www.odu.edu and can't find anything in reference to this.

Then i looked again for 'dominion university' and this led me to the dominion site:

http://www.melchizedek.to/

Some weird shit happening here. Is this what you are referring to? If it is then I wouldn't worry too much cos they look like a bunch of loser loonies.

I find the "Project for New American Century" a much more dangerous project. And it is real. It was disucussed here previously:

http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi-bin...t=001802#000000

The only problem I see is installing a dill like Dubya to lead us into that new period. Someone as dumb as him could only ruin it..... and he has. I am getting more and more the feelign that both him and his neo-con revolution is over before it even got properly started.

[ramon]

. I am getting more and more the feelign that both him and his neo-con revolution is over before it even got properly started.

We can only hope this is true , unfortunately even if they loose power the world will be cleaning up their mess for many years to come.

Say what you like about Bush at least he probably believed in what he was doing , however misguided he was.

John Howard in my opinion is much worse because he couldn't be stupid enough to believe in it , yet he has thrust us in amongst it hoping to benefit from being America's greatest lackey

[mescalito]

Dead right bud.

:confused:

[Rev]

Hes not the only embarassing diplomat

Why is that our Culture is leaning towards becoming so 'loud'

Whether it be the pollies jumping into the 'coalition of the willing' or trying to psyche us out wth all its travel advisories

we seem to have some kind of attention defecit disorder with dellusions of being more important than we are

you can almost sense the disappointmnet that the Al qaeda network HASNT blown up anything yet in australia in the voices of the pollies

Its like they actually want to be reassured that we matter enough to be a target and they go out of their way to injure and insult our good repoutation in order to provoke it - Bali just wasnt close enough for them, and theyd be all sour faced - geez SPAIn got bombed! we thought it was our turn !!

They even put in the missile shield just it seems to piss off our neighbours as it certainly doesnt protect us from anything

I think howard secretly wishes there would be a major incident befor ethe elections just to take the heat off Labours social agenda and get back to the issue he did so well at excploiting last time - xenophobia and insecurity

they are already onto it by taking their own defamatory translation of a speech by one of australias clerics as being pro al qaeda (SBS had it retranslated and no such link was made)

[gomaos]

I think howard secretly wishes there would be a major incident befor ethe elections just to take the heat off Labours social agenda and get back to the issue he did so well at excploiting last time - xenophobia and insecurity

yeah I also think he's waiting for SOMETHING to happen...

that's why he's not going to elections yet...

maybe he even knows already what it will be...

something like last time: the boatpeople, kids overboards etc...

[waterdragon]

port arthur did a great job, something of that magnitude will be required for the re-election of howard. let's face it, he's a lying fuckwit desperately seeking to be relevant in the bigger picture. i suspect that a lot of the 'be alert, not alarmed' type shit is trying very hard to turn us into a little america, ie motivated by fear. btw has anyone caught the latest coastline/customs ads?(the one with the dent in the steel hulled boat) i near hurt myself laughing.