seeing my thoughts

[G*P]

I think they've just got a few neuro-associations yet to build.

exercises formed from NLP eye accessing cues and verbal hypnotic synesthesia patterns have allowed my friend and family a greater success with CEVS

there's a good exercise with stacks of shiny 5c coins that i'v read can work well

[mutant]

any thoughts on people who take psychedelics but rarely experience visuals?

i have 2 friends who claim this......one may be a functional autistic the other claims its to do with his lefthandedness.....

t s t .

My dog says he never had any major hallucinations, except from some rare cases where he did see some impressive imagery , and didn't have any real interest for them for that matter. I always wondered about this my self. This characteristic also seems to differentiate the bad trip flavour: with hallucinations it's more scary in nature - without them it might be agoraphobic or just uneasy, terrible, but not scarey. I also have come to a relatively safe conclusion that people with more tendency , fancying visuals are indeed people who do see them a lot in practice and also taking special interest on it, anticipating each and each time the colours and patterns... My dog says if he anticipates something euphoric from a psych trip, this is that wonderful epiphany, the feeling of connectness with nature and self and everything. My dog also says he supposes the fancy colours are meant for the 'wow effect' and he believes that's propably one of the attractions of psychedelics and main reasons of popularity.

it's funny your friend mentions lefthanded-ness. my dog says it might has something to do with his small right lobe as opposed to the big left one. Would you say your friend is more of a laid down rational guy, materialist and such or more of a fantasy, spontaneous and emotional type?

G*P my dog is interested in what you say. please say more....

Edited July 31, 2009 by mutant

[Sonny Jim]

Hi all

OEVs and CEVs without intoxication are not common but they do happen.

Any body heard of "visual snow"

There is a forum discussion for people who see visual snow. I contribute to this forum regularly.

Most people on this forum experience things like Hunab Ku and others have described in this thread. Most have never taken any kind of psychedelic and a lot have been seeing OEVs and CEVs since early childhood.

Interestingly, most contributors to the visual snow forum do not see anything worthwhile about their visual symptoms. In fact most are terrified of the OEVs in particular, fearing that it may eventually claim all of their normal vision. A lot of them are on benzos etc to stop them freaking out too much about it.

Not me, I love my visual snow.

You can find the "visual snow" forum here http://thosewithvisualsnow.yuku.com/forums/63

There is also a "visual snow" Wiki page.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Sonny Jim

[El Barto]

ive had CEV's while sober for years now, most of it is just random patters and lights and such

but sometimes its detailed pictures and mini stories, usually when im tired, ive also notice the more times i trip the more intense my CEV's have become when on MJ

"any thoughts on people who take psychedelics but rarely experience visuals?"

ive also known a couple people to say this but i wonder if its just small dosed or they higher tolerances

Edited August 4, 2009 by El Barto

[El Barto]

"don't have a clue but next time you have them try manipulating them with your thoughts. would be interesting if you can control them."

ive tried this also but the more i get controll over it i seem to loose concentration over it and it fizzles away

but i get the feeling if it was somthing i were to practice i could get a handle of it

[immanuel]

i am only talking from my personal experience here. but i know that the visuals or HPPD can be controlled i can do it whenever i'm stoned to an amazing degree, the visuals i can produce are as mindblowing as any psychedelic, not sure how to go about doing this sober though.

same thing goes for any psychedelic. i dont get visuals unless i ask for them, even on high doses.

Edited August 4, 2009 by mardybum

[t st tantra]

mutant,my left handed friend is an older alcoholic,also addicted to nicotine and cannabis.

he builds computers,was a music teacher ,repairs his own car and seems an excellent lead guitarist......

t s t .

[mutant]

"any thoughts on people who take psychedelics but rarely experience visuals?"

ive also known a couple people to say this but i wonder if its just small dosed or they higher tolerances

my dog says no to both. it's in the individual, I am sure

mutant,my left handed friend is an older alcoholic,also addicted to nicotine and cannabis.

he builds computers,was a music teacher ,repairs his own car and seems an excellent lead guitarist......

well that's very interesting. Dogs says cheers to your friend . I wonder if I get flamed for this, is he a Sagittarius in astrology ? Lol

he sure sounds like my dogs soulmate.

[G*P]

NLP eye accessing cues

 

http://www.renewal.ca/nlp13.htm

If you follow the link it will explain the eye cues and, visual/auditory/kinesthetic - (created and recalled) and how the model works.

When I want greater closed or open eye visuals, I spend several minutes accessing each of those upper quadrants shown to relate to the visual functions of the brain.

30seconds works for me, while several minutes roving through different ranges of depth and breadth and various combinations of focus can work to get peoples visual experiences happening more readily.

Edited August 5, 2009 by G*P

[ThunderIdeal]

i struggle to imagine what tripping is like without visuals, or believing comments like t mckenna saying it's really hard for him to hallucinate with acid.

i mean wtf.

maybe much could be learned about the mechanisms of a trip by studying the minority (?) who are somehow spared from some of the mechanisms.

[mutant]

i struggle to imagine what tripping is like without visuals, or believing comments like t mckenna saying it's really hard for him to hallucinate with acid.

i mean wtf.

maybe much could be learned about the mechanisms of a trip by studying the minority (?) who are somehow spared from some of the mechanisms.

I actually wonder too about the vision-OEV-CEV goers and enthusiasts. I mean wtf. How interesting can it get seeing pretty colours and patterns created by a drug? And for how many times? See a fucking movie for christ sake! Plus hallucinating a lot can make you believe much more than what is really true.

Let me put it really simple. I don't believe I cannot hallucinate, it's just not my type. I didn't do it as a kid too much, it's normal I don't do it know. I am all in watching real spectacles like a great view, nature, such stuff.

When my dogs first started smoking cannabis over 10 years ago they got stoned and then looked at the sky and clouds and imagined various shits in there "hey man, do you see that cowboy on the horse, over that cloud " - "hey man, cool!" . Well, I never thought this is interesting. That's where the inclination can be isolated, early years....

And fuck, unless you are a visual artist [or, ehm.... a shaman, ehm] I cannot really believe it's beneficial in any way. Like I said, only a wow effect to get you more interested, but far from the actual point in using psychedelics. Which is funny, as it seems most people do trip mainly for the thrills of the visials! [you can tell because they are compaining when they don't see them and they are increasing the doses to continue seeing them].

Thankfully I don't respect too much the world or culture humans have created , the 'community' being no exception, and I have long stopped feeling alienated when I see I am so different than the ones that souround me....

by studying the minority (?) who are somehow spared from some of the mechanisms.

what do you think of a minority that is less illusioned by the funky visuals which is spared?? Have you noticed how much has been written about details and patterns of psych visuals in reports or discussing tripping??

[holymountain]

I actually wonder too about the vision-OEV-CEV goers and enthusiasts. I mean wtf. How interesting can it get seeing pretty colours and patterns created by a drug? And for how many times? See a fucking movie for christ sake! Plus hallucinating a lot can make you believe much more than what is really true.

dude...it is so much more than just pretty colours and patterns. from reading your posts it seems that you aren't really interested in the visual side of psychedelics. but have you actually had a proper visionary experience?

you seem to frown on the people who take larger doses in order to see visuals. to me if you aren't seing visuals..or if you are just getting pretty colours and patterns then you are experiencing a fraction of what is possible. i'm not advocating large doses but it might go a long way towards showing you why people are enthused over visuals.

but it's not like i sit around going 'man those visuals were wicked'...it's more in the sense of finding yourself in completely different worlds that are tactile, convicing and all encompassing. the visuals are just a part of an experience that encapsulates all senses.

Edited August 6, 2009 by holymountain

[mutant]

I admit I was being provocative once again, I really don't mind having it with you holymountain, but it seems we've talked a bit so far, so we don't need to 'misunderstand' each other again, or I needn't say it all over again for my part.

I remember seeing an obsession over visuals from as far as I remember reading about drugs, especially psychedelics. Also, I have noticed many years now that people, especially those of younger ages are universally interested in visual alterations, not only on drugs. I also rember people of all kinds to become fascinated by psychedelics as a concept, because 'you see weird things' etc.

Well I see 'things' too if that's what you ask, but it's thought schemes, feelings, awareness. The more years go by, the better I understand life - not that it necessarily means life is improved only by understanding it better, mind you.... And this is not only from psychoactives use, of course.

Plus, vision is only one and pretty deceiving sense.

But most important, for me, I saw my stuff and I see my stuff in my life, in the real deal, you know? My spiritualism is not a metaphysical one, but isn't shallow like someone who dislikes me would like to indicate. I see and feel stuff and I cannot help but assume my prior psych experiences have played a part... Or only those who have been heroic tripping are qualified to claim having been affected by psychs??

but have you actually had a proper visionary experience?

proper huh? what is proper? superduper high doses so that I can't make anything out of it?? No thank you.

Visionary in my dictionary brings 10 or so meanings. Some of them are related with vision, hallucinations, fantasy world, not all of them though...

Well, I think I have stated in this forum several times, in several different ways that psychedelics have played a very important role in my life. So if I haven't had any 'proper visions', according to you, what does this say about me? I am a phonny? That my relationship with psychedelics is wanna-be? You speak of other worlds, I neither have the need to escape this wolrd or experience other worlds to understand this one or for plain kicks , but also didn't feel like that. It was the same fucking world, but perceived in such a way it looked different.

I remember having read from knowledgeable persons that visions and colours are wow effects, not the real messages. I have also read lots of opinions on how drugless insights can be more valueable and living proof of it is the large numbers of heroic dosers who obviously are more confused than enlighted.

You are right in one thing: I am curious about "why people are enthused over visuals"... plus a lot more things .. but it seems there's no real answer so far, apart from , well take 15gs of mushrooms and see for yrself....

In the bottom line, putting all mumbo jumbo aside, I have to either stop or go on assuming various stuff about those who need the visuals to get their spirituality going, in the same vein one might assumed 'what the fuck is this guy talking, if he doesn't hallucinate' about me.... I am stopping here for now...

[eexpee]

Any body heard of "visual snow"

There is a forum discussion for people who see visual snow. I contribute to this forum regularly.

Most people on this forum experience things like Hunab Ku and others have described in this thread. Most have never taken any kind of psychedelic and a lot have been seeing OEVs and CEVs since early childhood.

Interestingly, most contributors to the visual snow forum do not see anything worthwhile about their visual symptoms. In fact most are terrified of the OEVs in particular, fearing that it may eventually claim all of their normal vision. A lot of them are on benzos etc to stop them freaking out too much about it.

Not me, I love my visual snow.

You can find the "visual snow" forum here http://thosewithvisualsnow.yuku.com/forums/63

There is also a "visual snow" Wiki page.

Wow, just finding out now that this is practically a condition! I have had this for as long as I can remember and just assumed everyone had it. Its like faded colourful static all the time that can cause what looks like movement in still objects if i stare at them. Sort of like what you get when your stoned? Or is that just me again?

Well, good to know I guess. I now have a term!

:D

[G*P]

Sight, vision and pictures..

the most immediate method by which to convey massive amounts of information.

Various religions and mystery traditions have incorporated imagery for good reason. For millenia.

Why be bothered with any other form of medium, when I can lick a shroom+ stare at my wall and have everything I need to know revealed as hypercolour movies.

Of course there are at least 5 more senses through which to explore consciousness.. Some ppl aren't very visual- thats where eye-accessing and chaining cognitive states can really help-

Same with those who never 'feel' a trip.. I never hear many ppl talking about auditory phenomena either.. ??

but for me, the visual is so convenient immediate and capable of achieving the required outcome.

Every great teacher chooses the most appropriate language for the particular student.

This also often changes over time, as we do.

Edited August 7, 2009 by G*P

[holymountain]

i'm not saying visuals are all there is. i agree that if one does not take anything away then they have missed the point. i think it was alan watts who said not to be distracted by the fireworks aspect of psychedelics.

But most important, for me, I saw my stuff and I see my stuff in my life, in the real deal, you know? My spiritualism is not a metaphysical one, but isn't shallow like someone who dislikes me would like to indicate. I see and feel stuff and I cannot help but assume my prior psych experiences have played a part... Or only those who have been heroic tripping are qualified to claim having been affected by psychs??

i too have seen stuff from my life and about my life. i find these most useful for working on oneself and solving problems etc. i call this the 'problem solving' stage of psychedelic experience. where things are still relevant to the here and now and the personal. or as you put it:

It was the same fucking world, but perceived in such a way it looked different.

it is at this level that we can really look at ourselves and our life and gain deep insights. i believe these are very important and valid experiences and probably the most the useful for humans at this point in our evolution. my life has been changed by these experiences also and i don't doubt that yours has as well.

So if I haven't had any 'proper visions', according to you, what does this say about me? I am a phonny? That my relationship with psychedelics is wanna-be? You speak of other worlds, I neither have the need to escape this wolrd or experience other worlds to understand this one or for plain kicks , but also didn't feel like that. It was the same fucking world, but perceived in such a way it looked different

if one is to increase the dosage then you do find yourself in other realms. i believe this is where we go beyond the personal and into the the transpersonal realms. who knows what they are or where they are but they seem above and beyond the human realm. admittedly there is less one can gain in terms of personal insights yet i believe the experience is still worthwhile from an exploration perspective. it is not done out of a desire to escape this world or hope to understand it better. it is done out of curiosity as to what else is out there (or in here). the writings of robert anton wilson and timothy leary talk about these experiences becoming useful as we evolve further and activiate the other levels of our consciousness. as we push on in our evolution we will know what to do with these other worlds and their beings and these levels of experience will become more useful.

i don't think you are a phony because you haven't had massive doses. i just don't think you should make provocative comments regarding these experiences if you have not had them.

proper huh? what is proper? superduper high doses so that I can't make anything out of it?? No thank you.

to me a proper (or complete rather) visual experience is something like DMT or around 12g of cubes or 5g of subs where you find yourself in another realm. a complete immersion in another place. eyes open or eyes closed you are there and the vision is 360. you have no doubt that you are truly somewhere else. i don't think you need to go there everytime you take a psychedelic. i do think it's worth checking out at least twice though. super duper high doses that you can't take anything out of aren't recommended. but you can still get to these places and work within them without having your mind blown.

You are right in one thing: I am curious about "why people are enthused over visuals"... plus a lot more things .. but it seems there's no real answer so far, apart from , well take 15gs of mushrooms and see for yrself....

exactly.

Edited August 7, 2009 by holymountain

[ThunderIdeal]

GP, regarding auditory hallucinations i suspect people usually listen to music, so they don't usually come into play. music is pretty awesome but it's worth tripping at least once without it. FOAF recently used subs without any music and decided that he knows very little about music.

aaaanyways, GP touched on it, i think it's more interesting to discuss WHY/HOW visuals can be ordinary for some people. i think calling hallucinations 'pretty colours' is fairly off-target but forgetting the relevance of visuals for a moment, do some people miss visuals because they aren't interested like mutant might be suggesting? because their brain isn't accessing the visual parts like GP might be suggesting? do people have the ability to block a trip out (and i mean the whole trip)?

what does dominate the experience if there are no visuals?

does one still feel exceptionally slow and useless at conversing, manipulating objects etc? does one still manage to act weirdly?

i'm intrigued because if FOAF were to take (confirmed potent) acid without hallucinating visually, it would rank right at the top with all of the other great mysteries about acid that circle around FOAF's brain.

"My spiritualism is not a metaphysical one, but isn't shallow like someone who dislikes me would like to indicate."

if you're talking about me i don't dislike you i BELIEVE that you don't see beyond ego since you believe everything is motivated by ego, but then most of the time i only see ego too, and i could be wrong about all of it. to dislike your actual person over this would be shallow indeed.

Edited August 7, 2009 by ThunderIdeal

[Sonny Jim]

Yeah eexpee, I was pretty spun out when I first found the visual snow forum.

Its amazing, I recommend the forum to every one interested in visuals or hallucinations.

What I find most fascinating is that most people on the visual snow forum, do not see their visuals in anything close to the spiritual/psychedelic paradigm. They see them selves as sufferers of a rare medical condition, and fear it may eventual destroy their eye sight.

It is important to note that almost every one on that forum has had every diagnostic test available and no anomalies have been found. Also no one has ever reported any measurable loss of eye sight or anything to indicate it is some kind of degenerative disease. Most have also had "persistent migraine aura" ruled out. In other words, they are all basically healthy and experience constant OEVs and CEVs like the ones produced by psychedelics and other mindful practices.

[holymountain]

audio hallucinations are pretty common on higher doses...that whirring, buzzing sound kind of like a modem dialling up is pretty common with DMT and mushrooms..often you don't even notice it happening because you are too focused on something else going on. with listening to music on a whole range of effects happen...echo, flanging, slow motion, delay, reverb etc.. as if someone has plugged your brain into a multi effects pedal and is tweaking the knobs....it can be quite amazing. i understand this does not happen to happen to everyone though. for me it is pretty common. that could be because i listen to a lot of music and play a lot of music too. same could be said for visuals actually. i like to draw and paint and love looking at art. like thunder suggested maybe i only get visuals and audio hallucinations because i am particularly interested in audio and visuals anyway.... somehow i don't think thats the answer though it may explain why emphasis is placed on some aspects of tripping over others.

[woof woof woof]

you just conditioned your eye-nerves to see images comming from your creative part of your brain.

it does show that you have become more sensitive (OPEN) to different types of vibes that normally do not enter people that are only conditioned to see earthly vibes (regular life things)

I get it now when I am tired or had a few drinks.......anything stimmulating will do it too.

If you practice conscious dreaming, visual meditation or anything involving your optical nerves stimmulation........ it will improve your visual receptiveness.

I suggest you meditate visually on the color black....... this will calm all nerves and make you incredibally receptive to (NEW TYPES) of stimmulus.

Keep in mind........... UNCONDITIONAL LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING when you do that. You are doing it for self discovery. This though can keep you from freaking out when you have travelled in too deep, so you can stay calm and come in for a soft landing.

[woof woof woof]

BTW - hearing has better receptivity then visual learning. Statistically proven with most people.

Audio or visiual or any other type of hallucianation is of course the stimmulation of the nervous system.

Anyone can hear their innervoice........ anyone can see their thoughts.... you only need to pay a little attention. Nothing special really.

[G*P]

I'd love to seeee those statistics, woof woof

That sounds like opinion to me.

Schools all over the world have adopted visual and kinesthetic strategies into the fold. I've been a part of these programs.

What is this 'receptivity' variable measured by? Does this include recall..?

The best example is learning to spell the English language. Poor spellers were common when schools taught to 'sound the words out'..

And now we have a visual strategy- Seee the word.. refer to that brightly colored, animated image of the word you want to spell..

and compare that to fon-a-logic-all-eee spelling stuff out-

It's obvious to see the difference. lol.

Also, you seem to suggest that 'synethesia' is easy and common. Nothing special. i'd just love that to be true for everyone.

---

i think it's more interesting to discuss WHY/HOW visuals can be ordinary for some people. i think calling hallucinations 'pretty colours' is fairly off-target but forgetting the relevance of visuals for a moment, do some people miss visuals because they aren't interested like mutant might be suggesting? because their brain isn't accessing the visual parts like GP might be suggesting? do people have the ability to block a trip out (and i mean the whole trip)?

what does dominate the experience if there are no visuals?

Hell yeah!

I think everyones experience is totally valid. With there being such a range in psychedelic possiblity.. i'd love to begin thinking more about what others are perhaps accessing that i am yet to.

And experiencing it.

Yeah.. so,

"what does dominate the experience if there are no visuals?"

Edited August 8, 2009 by G*P

[mutant]

BOY I have been in such forums since mid 07, when my interest in psychedelics revitalised and I got on to grow some interesting plants.

I have tried to provoke such a discussion in a couple of forums, especially e-dot, but I saw the dismissal and negativity. I am thrilled to see some people here actually discuss, and even if it's a coincidence, I will regard it a coroboree first for me. I would fucking love to see older people here commenting in here, but I will resist the temptation to call names, at least for now.....

I also wanna note that I don't regard other similar or related discussions done at the same time in Spirituality/Philosophy forums irrelevant. I am sure,that through our use, we have at least learnt that nothing is irrelevant - I regard the complex of several similar discussions in various forums frequented by more or less the same people the core of those discussions...

Re: G*P

Sight, vision and pictures..

the most immediate method by which to convey massive amounts of information.

Various religions and mystery traditions have incorporated imagery for good reason. For millenia.

Why be bothered with any other form of medium, when I can lick a shroom+ stare at my wall and have everything I need to know revealed as hypercolour movies.

thank you mate, no irony in here. I have long waited for such feedback to my comments and suggestions on the nature of the psychedelic experience. nothing new in what you suggest, I just didn't expect it to be expressed so plain and simple...

btw what do you regard more visual, acid or cacti ?

Re:Holymountain

If one is to increase the dosage then you do find yourself in other realms. i believe this is where we go beyond the personal and into the the transpersonal realms. who knows what they are or where they are but they seem above and beyond the human realm. admittedly there is less one can gain in terms of personal insights yet i believe the experience is still worthwhile from an exploration perspective. it is not done out of a desire to escape this world or hope to understand it better. it is done out of curiosity as to what else is out there (or in here). the writings of robert anton wilson and timothy leary talk about these experiences becoming useful as we evolve further and activiate the other levels of our consciousness. as we push on in our evolution we will know what to do with these other worlds and their beings and these levels of experience will become more useful.

Look I am not saying that explorations should stop at a certain dose where major effects are felt, say, from people like me. I am even perfectly aware that I would dose more determined , perhaps even more frequent if I more fellow explorers close to my approach existed where I am located. Of course there are states that can be accessed. But, I am not convinced that this is a dose thing. It's not even particular to a certain class, like the one favoured in a forum like this And then again, like I said again, I am not sure if most people really should experience these states...

So , as I am very wary suggesting any psych use at all, I would suggest you advocate psychs as powerful anf potentially dangerous tools, and not rather as miracle drugs. That's the base of my arguements all around, cheers.. And if rogdog is right and some stuff is left unsaid, someothers too are left unsaid, so nothing is really sure about this whole thing... huh?

I do regard such experiments worthwhile. But I have to know exactly who the narrator of the wild story, or else its tottaly useless to me. There's plenty of wacky reports on the net.

And of course, even if I would like to hear opinions from older experienced persons, I don't claim the answers from them. But fuck, I do claim them from the more 'newcomers', in what they are doing with their use....

What I am saying, is that what each one says and narrates is raleted with the consistency of the same net persona.

i just don't think you should make provocative comments regarding these experiences if you have not had them.

so because I haven't done [sorry, IMO] stupid doses, I cannot provoke??? Few are speaking anyway!!! Or is it because I am speaking???

Re:ThunderIdeal

if you're talking about me i don't dislike you tongue.gif i BELIEVE that you don't see beyond ego since you believe everything is motivated by ego, but then most of the time i only see ego too, and i could be wrong about all of it. to dislike your actual person over this would be shallow indeed.

hey, come on mate, of course I am not talking about you. I like you, and I sure like G*P and Hunab with which I have argued maybe bit intense in the past. The ones that might no like me, are propably not taking part in threads where I contribute, maybe...

In regards with visual snow, I would be wary of implications with psych use, and would research a bit, before doing anything else that might prove silly in the long term....

===

too late to spell check for

Edited August 8, 2009 by mutant

[Tlaloc]

SEEING MY THOUGHTS

I have an experience I would like to relate.

Some years ago, I couldn't sleep all night. I plunked down in front of the Gas heater on a green Beanbag to keep comfy and warm.

I stayed up all night, counting my breath. Suddenly, after some time I had a massive urge to get up and puke. (of all things!)

I got to the bath and did the business, the pain was incredible. It was like expelling something almost metaphysical from my body - more in the line of Ayahuasca.

I got in the bath with the water on warm and lay down and "let go". Suddenly, everything went black. I COULD SEE MY NEXT THOUGHT Before it Happened I was detached from them in such an alien manner to me. They are not really part of me.

Simultaneously I got a corresponding picture of what would happen to me if I chose to accept that thought. That .... Death. The thoughts SLOWED down to a stop. I became aware of the substance and the system of my thoughts.

Never had I consciously recalled such an experience. All around me became infinite black, cold oblivion just black nothing. In this state I could see that all points were just One single point. That ANY path, is but a movement like any other. They're all just points of light, indiscriminate, and Endless... endless. !!

I was surrounded by the dark, when far far far away on the distant horizon I saw a very faint point of light. I willed the light closer and as it did, I realised what it was, and that I was dieing.

All of life was contained in that one beautiful, warm, lovely tiny speck of light. Everything I was, my hopes, fears dreams, the people I loved the places I had been. All in this one point. I was beyond thought

my dieing wish was to return to that point of light, to those people and places I loved. To the gardens of the world and of my own beating heart.

Great masters of Meditation can stop their thoughts at will. you see them, but they don't see what you see, their perception is wholly something that must be experienced.

Lets Try Manjushri's Gate

Manjushri was the Buddha's favourite disciple.

One day Manjushri was standing outside the gate when Buddha called to him "Marnjushri, why stand outside the Gate? Why not enter?"

"I do not see a thing Outside the Gate, why then would I enter." replied Manjushri

"If you See it, you See it directly"

"If you Think, you are mistaken"

[woof woof woof]

once at a acidhouse party..... think it was a combo of x - fungi and laughing gas..... well.... at a certain point the craziest thing happend.... I sa myself making the move in a trancedental pattern way connecting my mind to my body........ then my body followed.

in othe words,... my energy body made the move...... then my physical body followed. to say that this is evolution...... I might say it is a side effect of evolution to say the least.

If you read on buddhism, you will find that the higher up you come in vibrational level,... the more side effects you will get........ more ESP, more coincidences, clairvoyance etc etc etc...

so,.... yes,... this is a kind of evolution if you ask me. Finetuning ourselves is why we are here and why neanderthalers are perhaps not.