Mushrooms and Nymphaea flowers depicted together

[friendly]

On pg. 54 of the Codex Nuttall, a Mixtec Mexican screen-fold book from North of the Maya territories, and using many of the same symbols as the Maya to tell the stories and depict rituals, there is a small glyph between two of the larger pictures in the lower right-hand corner which consists of an opened water lily flower seen face-on with opened mushrooms clearly depicted with their stems originating from the four cardinal points of the flower.

This was recently pointed out to me by a friend who has taken an interest in my research. It is also the only clear depiction of mushrooms in the entire manuscript.

Edited December 4, 2008 by friendly

[Torsten]

Nymphaea might be a nice way to take the fear or anxiety edge off a mushroom experience. Then again, N.ampla [which is probably the species in question, right?] appears to be slightly different in effect to the other Nymphaeas, so who knows what sort of synergy theremight be.

[Vertmorpheus]

random thoughts. post the example by any chance? found this kicking about http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/zouche_...l/thumbs_3.html but cant see anything entirely like you mention... other than this geezer http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/zouche_...img_page59.html at the bottom of the upperrighthandside red line, is that what you mean? also found these http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/zouche_...img_page54.html, clump of mushy looking things in the "2nd top left" panel, assuming 8 panels per page... looks to me like "fungus in the hollow of a hill" but then again, somewhere int hat thing looks like a guy using a lawnmower, so who knows. Certainly something lower on the same page that seems to be about flooding.

In closeup, that page with the "flower fungus thing" looks more like a solar symbol, id go passionflower at a stretch, but those lil weird headed things I found look more like fungi than those, theyre just circles coming out of another circle, evenly spaced for the 8 significant points of the yearly cycle held by a lot of "original" cultures?

if it is lillies n mushrooms, maybe suggesting a correlation of flowering time of lillies / findability of fungi?

hard to tell online, someone mail me the original

VM

[Chiral]

Here is an extract from Maya medicine reporting that the Maya smoked the roots and bulbs of a water Lilly for use as a hallucinogen.

A variety of drugs and alcoholic beverages (Balché) were used in medicine and religious ceremonies. Drunkenness was connected with the wide-spread practice of divination, a ritual act designed to allow direct communication with certain supernatural forces such that an individual could foretell the future or understand due causes for events or illness not otherwise understood. A drunken state was supposed to give one the insight to interpret the reasons for illness, misfortune, adverse weather, and so forth. The Balché was made with the bark of the tree with the same name (Lonchocarpus longistylus Pittier) and honey. Wild tobacco (Nicotiana rustica), that is stronger than the domestic and could be hallucinogen, and other species of plants were smoked or administered in enemas to induce a trance-like state, (ingesting psychoactive drugs anally produces a more powerful and instantaneous reaction than drugs taken orally).

Some mushrooms names clearly indicate their use, such as one type called "k'aizalah okox," the "lost judgment mushroom" (Psilocybe cubens). There is evidence the Maya used the seeds of The Morning Glory or "Quiebracajete" (Ipomoea violacea) and another very similar plant (Rivera corymbosa), along with Balché, to achieve a trance-like state connected with divination. The Morning glory is 5 times stronger than the R. corymbosa, and they have 6 ergotamine alkaloids. Easily the most entertaining device for altering the mind was due to the large tropical Wad tod, (Bufo marinus). Used to deter would-be predators, the compound was extracted by the Maya and taken in measured doses to transport their minds to another level of thinking and communicate with their "Way". The Spaniards reported that Mayas added tobacco or toad skins to their alcoholic beverages to give it an added kick. The Peyote Cactus (Lophophora wiliamsii), known in Central America as "Aguacolla" was also used. The Spaniards priest describe it's use both, medicinally and ceremonially, for many ills and that when intoxicated with the cactus, the user saw "horrible visions". The Angel's trumpet or "Florifundia" (Brugmansia arborea) is a psychoactive plant, was also used in ceremonies and as an sleep aid. The Water Lilly (Nymphaea ampla) found in Lakes and Lagoons in Guatemala, also was smoked due to the hallucinogen characteristics' of its bulbs and roots. The Devil's trumpet or "Vuelveteloco" (Datura Candida), was also used, this plants contain hiosciamine and scopolamine. All these substances could be involved in the Bloodletting rituals, to kill the pain, and a better communication with the gods.

H.

[friendly]

Very interesting. Your pg. 59 is the equal of my pg. 54, only in my edition the flower and mushrooms are much more clearly delineated and obvious.

From other research in Mayan ceramic artworks, I have determined that the flower in question is typical of a Nymphaea depiction, which varies from artist to artist.

Furthermore, I have found the Nymphaea/mushroom combination depicted in many Asian Indian religious artworks, especially depictions of the Boddhi Tree, which is often shown with a mushroom either inside the trunk of the Bodhi tree or tied to it. Sometimes the mushrooms are shown as branches of the tree, with the caps being fruits.

Torsten has a photo I sent his some time ago, which I saked him to not show to anyone for a while, depicting the Buddha sitting under the Bodhi tree with both a mushroom and a bunch of Nymphaea flowers tied to the trunk by a belt.

I guess now would be a good time to allow him to put it up, and I will inform him he can now do so.

This is only one of the many photos that will be in my book about Nymphaea.

I do not know if I mentioned it or not, but I have tied the Egyptian, Mayan and Asian Indian creation myths together. In each one, the Nymnphaea flower is the gateway and key to the afterlife and one must be reborn from the flower to attain paradise.

In ancient Egypt, all the gods and goddesses are born of the Blue Lily flowers. In India, rthey are 'lotus born', but they mean the utpala lotus--The red (N. rubra) or blue (N. caerulea) Nymphaea specias known as red and blue lotus, respectively.

I have photos of sculptures and ceramic vases depicting Mayan nobles being reborn from the N. ampla flower, and much more evidence to corroborate it.

[Chiral]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the photo depicted in this link would seem to also show the Nymphaea vine running up and down the sides of this Mayan ceramic vase..and mushrooms displayed in the centre.

http://research.famsi.org/botany/plant_ima...nt_photo_id=235

H.

[friendly]

It's quite possible. The Nymphaea vine, lily pads and flowers were extensively depicted in Mayan art.

There are some particularly interesting photos of ceramic vessels depicting Mayan lords being born out of Nymphaea flowers in a book I have which I am keeping secret until I get done. In this book the lily's role in rebirth and the underworld is dealt with, but they do not understand the true signifigance of the lily, thinking it merely signified flowering plants. This despite the text mentions there must be something more than that, but they say they do not understand it. It is right before their eyes, but they do not see it.

The photos of ceramic depictions of lords born from lilies in this chapter--and throughout the entire book-- including depictions of the lily fragrance emanating from the flowers, leave little doubt for one looking for proof.

They just do not associate the Lily with the actual resurrective power, despite all the ceramic evidence.

I have been keeping this source secret as it is one of the main ones I am using in my book about the common creation myths between the Indian, Mayan and Egyptian cultures. All three myths state the gods came out of the Nymphaea flower and the way back to godhood through underworld passage is through the flowers.

I have a few chapters of my book done so far, and hope to get the majority (hopefully all) written this winter in a special place I have set up where I will not be distracted by the outside world.

I have more than enough photographic and literary evidence for the task at hand. I doubt I will be able to include it all, and will have to choose the best examples, but I am ready for the task.

Please, lets just keep this between ourselves for a little while, ok?

I am sending Torsten the photo I mentioned yesterday. It seems I sent him a diferent one than I remembered. Fancy that.

Edited November 24, 2008 by friendly

[t st tantra]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the photo depicted in this link would seem to also show the Nymphaea vine running up and down the sides of this Mayan ceramic vase..and mushrooms displayed in the centre.

http://research.famsi.org/botany/plant_ima...nt_photo_id=235

H.

nyphaea is a water lilly not a vine......i admit to finding this sort of artwork hard to interpret in terms of plant id......but i seem to see tendrils too...

t s t .

[Chiral]

Eerrrr.. yeah dumb ass me..it's Morning glory running up the side of that vase..not Nymphaea..thanks TST. I'm really interested to find out the synergy between these and Mushrooms..I'm wondering if Morning Glory and Cubes where somehow mixed or extractions made of LSA and a sublte combination of the 2 somehow made them more potent..some ancient chemistry perhaps..be really interesting to know seeing as how the LSA is so delicate and sensitive to heat..could they have found and used some sort of early cold extract..? plenty of questions hard to rustle up answers.

One thing I allways found strange was the Mayans abilty to go into battle and become bloodletting warriors under some of the psychedelics like mushrooms and Morning glory..I'm thinking there was more heavy use of Datura and Brug than we think to put them in that displaced paranoid visionary state. I'm sure some of the brews they cooked up pre battle would have sent any of us to the emergency ward in hurry.

Also interesting to read about Maria Sabina and how as young child she would hang out with her friends under trees and sing and dance and pick mushrooms and consume them regularly. I had allways wondered about the interactions of hallucinogens and young children ...Maria Sabina is proof of this and as woman who lived to 91 and never showed any ill health.

H.

[Chiral]

another tid bit of info regarding water lilly and the Mayans..

http://mayaruins.com/ekbalam/j1_1499.html

H.

[friendly]

I have had no success uploading images, so I messaged Torsten again. Hopefully he can put up the ones I send him.

In the Maya cosmology, the first sign of humanity--and therefore civilization--was the three hearth stones laid down in a triangle so food could be prepared over a fire. These are represented in the heavens; one of them is a star in the belt of Orion.

Linda Schele's 'Maya Cosmos; Three Thousand Year's on the Shaman's Path" describes her discovery of the meaning of the myths in a most amazing way. It really puts everything into perspective All of her work is amazing. The entiire creation myth can be seen reenacted in the heavens on mid-summer's and mid-winter's evenings at the proper latitude. I guarantee, this book can change your life in ways you never imagined possible.

The descendants of the Maya, millions strong, still practice the old rituals, in the old ways, (minus the human sacrifice) to this very day.

One of the three hearth stones is called the Jaguar throne stone, One is called the Serpent stone throne and one is called the Water lily throne stone. Some books list other names. The water lily also stands at and as the potral to and from the underworld and is consistently depicted in resurrection (ie; rebirth) scenes.

The water lily is as predominant in Maya art as it is in ancient Egyptian art, and with many of the same or similar depicted uses and properties.

Justin Kerr has a most amazing web site of hundreds--if not thousands of roll-out photos of Maya cylinder vases and other objects at: www.mayavase.com. I can't recommend it highly enough. He collaborrated with Linda Schele on many books.

As soon as I can, I will get some photos posted, but I don't want to give away too much of what is in the book; it's mind blowing. I also want to keep the best out of the public eye until can finish the book.

I am dedicating a space in my other warehouse to get the writing done--some place with no distractions. I built a loft over the past few months, installed a heating system, and will be moving a desk in later this week, the final step before I can get down to actual work.

Also, the water lily rhizomes can be easily mistaken for leafless vines. They are referred to as the umbilicus that connects Heart of Sky to Heart of Earth in the Maya cosmology, and do indeed resemble an umbilicus.

God, I've got a lot of work ahead of me. Just compiling all the material so I can put it into the proper order in the book is going to be an enormous task.

But it's time; it needs to be born and is pushing it's way out.

Edited December 3, 2008 by friendly

[Chiral]

God, I've got a lot of work ahead of me. Just compiling all the material so I can put it into the proper order in the book is going to be an enormous task.

But it's time; it needs to be born and is pushing it's way out.

LOL...

Hi friendly do you mind if I post that mayavase.com on a thread I'm building in chill space here..it's essentially all the relevant and interesting data I can accumulate on the Maya so as it can be referenced by other SAB members.

can't wait till your work is finished sounds exciting..take care.

H.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Hunab Ku

[friendly]

What the hell are you doing up at 4 am? It's 8 pm here in the cold dark north.

I did put the link up so it could be accessed by SAB members, so....

All I ask is to please keep this stuff quiet for a while. There's enough information available if you know where to look and have the determination to do the investigative labor, that anyone with the wrong attitude could scoop me.

[friendly]

I sent T. three images for uploading last night. I will provide a commentary for each one when it is up.

There may be indications the Maya combined mushrooms with Nymphaea to visit the underworld.

They certainly used everything else they could get their hands on; frogs, millipedes (wish I knew how), snake venom, etc.

And they put it all into their art....

[t st tantra]

do you remember when i picked up your article from entheogen review and began to explore water lilly/lotus here.

rev and i were experimenting with maoi and waterlilly,we found the addition of very small amts of tryptamines made for a very interesting visual experience with strong connection to the insect/plant world.

t s t .

[Chiral]

care to expend on that recipe T St....I have a pile of water Lily flower here dried out ..thanks FreeMan.. ..I'd like lil recipe to play around with..I hear water lily wine is good..

H.

[t st tantra]

one dose of maoi + 2 petals of most waterlillies + almost any amt of phsychoactive tryptamine plant..........

water lilly and ipomoea flower wine should be interesting.......

t s t .

[friendly]

TST: Yes, I do. You certainly helped get the enthusiasm going. Most of the people in the US (especially the San Francisco bay area) had their usual attitude--10 people would tell you why it couldn't, wouldn't and never did work, how you were an idiot for even suggesting it in the first place and how they knew even without trying it that it was hogwash (a polite term) before someone even bothered to try it.

This is the most controversial herb I ever became involved with. Partiers never did understand that it was an introspective substance; the real party is on the inside. COnsequently, a lot pf people never got it. I still get flak to this day from people that have never tried it but have made up their minds anyway.

[Torsten]

sorry it took a while to get these up.

thanks friendly for making these available. looking forward to your comments on them.

1

2

3

4

[friendly]

Thank you,T.

I'll have to take those one at a time.

The Birth of the Maize God depicts the rebirth of the father of the Hero Twins, who defeated the lords of the underworld who had klilled their father and buried him under the ballcourt. He is reborn out of the underworld from a cleft in the earth, here depicted as the carapace of a tortise, with the hero twins in front and behind him. One holds an olla, for watering the new sprout. Note the Nymphaea pad markings on the tortise's carapace--the interface between worlds. Also note that the tortise has two heads, one of them is the waterlily monster. The old father is reborn as the young Maize God, symbolizing the sprouting of the new Maize after the previous season. Note that he seems to be sprouting out of a skull on top of more lily pads and unopened flower images. This skull is called 'the resurrection god' in The Maya Book of the Dead.

There is a blizzard coming and I have to prepare for it, so I will have to continue this later.

[Chiral]

Geeeez there seems to be a lot Brug or Datura imagery in pic no- 3

H.

[MrPotato]

Cool, I want to read the book when it is finished.

[friendly]

That's Nymphaea in #3. Look at Mara Yuda and you can se the bunches of Nymphaea tied to the mushroom coming out of the top of the Buddha's aura--or any Egyptian example of Nymphaea, for that matter. This is an almost universal depiction of Nymphaea, with the 3 sepals surrounding the flowers. Compare this to Egyptian depictions and you will agree.

Still iced in--only here to check for freezing pipes. More when there's time.

Maya jag lily shows the jaguar (the sun at night, in the underworld) dancing in the underworld--note the fish at his feet--with Nymphaea flowers.

[Neoshaman]

That's Nymphaea in #3. Look at Mara Yuda and you can se the bunches of Nymphaea tied to the mushroom coming out of the top of the Buddha's aura--or any Egyptian example of Nymphaea, for that matter. This is an almost universal depiction of Nymphaea, with the 3 sepals surrounding the flowers. Compare this to Egyptian depictions and you will agree.

Still iced in--only here to check for freezing pipes. More when there's time.

Maya jag lily shows the jaguar (the sun at night, in the underworld) dancing in the underworld--note the fish at his feet--with Nymphaea flowers.

Hi Friendly

i was just reading your posts and a question came to mind , do you think that the use of Nymphea in Mayan culture is further backing for the arguement that there was sdome degree of interaction or trade between American and Egyptian Culture in ancient times,

I remember some time ago when i was investiagting a belief system known as hermeticism I came across some information stating that some of the priests of this belief had emmigarted to the South American region around the time of the Maya and shared a great deal of information with them. Although I haven't had time to look into the information that backs these statements isn't Nymphea regrarded as sacred in Egypt , which make me wonder also is there a specific point /period in time that these Nymphea begin to appear in Mayan work?

Anyone else know of any other common shamanics between these two cultures

http://www.earthmatrix.com/comparative.html

[mauve]

the flowering plant depicted in #3 looks more like Rivea corymbosa to me... from my actual experience of growing the plant.