Muscimol warning

[incognito]

nobun.... how many caps of fly agaric squeezed into a spoon and gently boiled would qualify for a good dose?

are there any good amanita links around detailing the preparation and dosage of fresh amanitas that does not involve drying??

i cant seem to find any.

im very curious about amanitas now.

[t st tantra]

post 51?

dose/actives are variable.....2 mushrooms seems a usual full dose for most?

t s t .

dont think nobun is around anymore,he had some interesting things to say if you could understand it ,which i often couldnt......i felt he was a bit sus somehow?

Edited April 26, 2009 by t st tantra

[incognito]

awesome thans tst, didnt see that one. was that a reliable source tst? what size where they?

[Chiral]

A real hippie freakoid friend of mine in the UK used to take the caps and oven dry them very slowly and then slice them into quarters and mix into yogurt and then consume..2-3 medium sized caps was a full on experience...I went collecting with him one day and we found millions of cubes and there where also literally Amanita's everywhere...brought home a few and prepared them but never got to ingest them...the dried caps where stored in a jar and I lost the jar at some point in my squat after a party.

H.

[t st tantra]

source is reliable.....mixed harvest of mainly fully mature but fresh specimens.

t s t .

[sharxx101]

I have heard the small mario bro looking ones are more potent than a large fully opened cap.

[mutant]

oops! double post

Edited April 27, 2009 by mutant

[mutant]

Ok, I will make a summary of what I have learned through experimenting with amanitas for some 4 years now. They are legal to consume where I am at [greece, that is]

1) pharmacology of amanitas is pretty complex but an interesting story. If you're really into that shit, take your time and short out the garbage info you will find around the net and the real info. It should not be too hard. And it's fun!

the bottom line is that it's better to prepare the mushrooms in some way either by heat, or by sun exposure, the latter regarded better. You can eat the dried chips, you can make them into tea, you can make soups or stews, or you can cook the fresh mushroom thoroughly, it wont make much of a difference. Eating fresh material will get you inebriated but also sick [due to ibotenic acid [iBO], that's why you have to prepare the material, to transofrm the IBO into the potent muscimole. Drying is obviously the best choice. Frozen material can be later dried, but it will be messy. It can be done though! Drying can also assist in dosing, since you can measure the material more efficiently.

2) You cannot simply ask for a dose reg amanitas. I admittedly was very conservative while experimenting with these mushrooms, and went very slowly upwards. You can find it writen everywhere that potency varies. Each batch might be different [even if I have found my material to be pretty unsurprising, mind you I always prepare right and homogenise to make my year supply stable and predictable]

I have found there are 3 dosage ranges, each of which has a pretty different effect. note that dosages are only indicative, each has to learn his own material.

a )

'tonic' dose, many don't feel a thing, some feel a very mild something. There is a slight euphoria and mood lift, even if the individual doesn't seem to notice. Sedation is also present. Affects the sleep too. there is a report about this dose range very life enhancing, even with daily use.

b ) 3~11 gr

'euphoric drunk' dose

stimulation at first, euphoria second, sedation third. 3-4 hour experience, relatively mild but pretty noticable, starts to get pretty more intense as you're climbing to 8, 9 or 11 grams. Appetite boost and enhancement, can last for more than a couple of days. Nice afterglow the nextday. Can be combind with other substances like alcohol in social situations but not really the best idea. Mixing with cannabis works wonders on the peak of the come-up, Swim tells me, just don't overdo it or cannabis will prevail.

c )

potential breakthrough doses, for some the 'real deal'. Doses up to 25 or even 30 grams have been reported, but I find 30 to be too much. depends on the strength of the batch. Stimulation, euphoria, dissociation, visions. experiences can be pretty complex. at this stage the consumer is pretty much inable to function properly/socially, best setting is a relaxed place where he can live through his internal journey. Deep sleep afterwards.

3) Pantherinas. They are indeed much more potent. I have actually found a very good prepared material to bring me to a pretty intense stim/euphoria state, actually in the verge of dissociation, at ~1,8 grams ! A scale is a necesitty here, I believe. Not recommended as starter material.

4) Precautions - dangers

Everyone who I have served amanita tea to has had from a mild, slighly noticable experience to a very nice time [never offered a breakthrough dose to anyone, I broke through myself recently, some 2 months ago.].

Noone ever vomited, noone but one had some nausea [he was very tired and drunk alcohol before ingestion] and crashed into sleep 30mins after ingestion. He woke up 4 hours later, with a very lifted mood, too bad for him the rest of us had moved to the sedation phase till then!

There is some, mild body load, but it's minor IME. Only a slight 'stomach tik' feeling was present closely after ingestion to all consumers when the material reaches the stomach [resembles when you have eaten some 'heavy' food - like wild mushrooms actually ] In big doses the load in the stomach is greater, but nothing really persistent, at least as far my own material is concerned]. Flavour enhancing properties can be a delight, next days afterglow too!

Preparation and state of mind is important with these mushrooms. Good mood prior to ingestion is a plus, nice mood of everyone partaking also a plus. Avoid experimenting when you are tired or exhausted [it might put you to sleep], avoid to take when you have the blues. If you're going for a mid 'euphoric drunk' dose, maybe choose to be with some nice company, it can get pretty social and pleasant, and/or have some nice music or something else to do along. Dancing is great at the first stim burst.

Taking too much amanitas [over breakthrough doses] can lead to coma-like sleeps that can last more than 14 hours. Death is not propable for the healthy and young, but it's dangerous and pointless nevertheless. Even 'normal' breakthrough doses can bring some unprepared / incompatible individuals to weird positions [hence the countless 'disaster' reports, especially in sites like erowid]. Detaching from the body [the main 'thing' in amanita visions] can be unnerving for some. like Salvia divinorum effect can be to some. Understand that is is a totally different mushroom. Very few if any similarities with any classic psychedelic. The state you're entering when on a high dose of amanitas is more similar to sleep or dreaming, than the sense enhanced reality of the so called classic-psychedelics.

Remember, to each his own, and LEARN you material

hope this is useful to some

happy hunting!

PS: 1. I don't believe baby amanitas are more potent than mature samples, their weight density is just bigger. The same volume of dried baby amanitas weighs significantly more [double!?] than the same volume of dried chips of mature specimens.

2. for more of my older reports and retrospective learning of this mushroom you can search in e-dot forums, where I have written some essays on the subject

Excellent e-dot thread on amanitas

An old e-dot thread I made when I started experimenting with amanitas

3. I should mention that my amanita muscaria material comes from mixed chestnut and fir forests from central/southern greece

Edited April 27, 2009 by mutant

[Alchemica]

Thanks for the detailed information mutant - your doses seem to agree with the literature.

Note: The following assumes that the Northern Hemisphere amanitas are equally as active as the Australian versions.

For more about dosing, the following quotes taken from "Amanita muscaria: chemistry, biology, toxicology,

and ethnomycology" might be of interest:

The active dose for muscimol is 7.5-10 mg (von Theobald et al. 1968). Ibotenic acid evokes entheogenic effects in human beings at doses ranging from 50-100 mg (Chilton 1975; Theobald et al. 1968).

A fresh average size fruit body of A. muscaria (60-70 g) contains up to 70 mg of ibotenic acid (Catalfomo & Eugster 1970a, Ott, Preston & Chilton 1975).

70mg of ibotenic acid decarboxylates to 51mg of muscimol, assuming complete decarboxylation during processing. Accordingly, one should theoretically assume that an active dose could start at 1/5th of a potent mushroom (after drying or heating to facilitate the conversion of ibotenic acid to muscimol).

The highest content of toxins is reported to be in the yellow flesh beneath the cuticle. The amounts of both compounds were higher in caps than in stems; the mean values for ibotenic acid and muscimol respectively were (f.w. - fresh weight) : 990 mg/kg (caps), 230 mg/kg (stems), and 380 mg/kg (caps), and 80 mg/kg (stems).

(Using an extraction that facilitated the decarboxylation of ibotenic acid) The levels of muscimol detected in the samples were of 0.19% d.w. (A. muscaria), and 0.3% d.w. (A. pantherina). Any attempt of dehydratation (of ibotenic acid) leads to decarboxylation yielding quantitatively muscimol, thus suggesting that a meal of the cooked mushrooms, or even after gastric digestion, would only contain the latter substance, and be the agent responsible for the main symptoms. The red skin of the cap and the yellow tissue beneath contain the highest amounts of these substances, so explaining practices in removing it (Catalfomo & Eugster 1970a).

Using the above results:

3 grams of dried A. muscaria affords ~6mg of muscimol

5 grams ~ 10mg of muscimol (active dose)

10 grams ~ 20mg of muscimol

I wonder if the large difference in required doses is due to differing potency of the mushrooms or incomplete conversion of the ibotenic acid to muscimol? Ideally, if one wanted to be sure that the potency was at a maximum, boiling the mushrooms for some time would be the way to go.

The review can be downloaded here : http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...st&id=12285

Edited April 27, 2009 by The Alchemist

[t st tantra]

sorry foggy morning brain........does anyone know much about receptor actions etc....esp with regard to pain relief?it seems nobun was right about this.....

t s t .

[hebrew]

good post mutant, i have begun loking into this mushroom lately too, thanks for the info.

[MindExpansion]

TST, Muscimol is a powerful agonist of GABAA receptors, and possibly a partial agonist at GABAB receptors. Evidence suggests that GABAA agonists or GABA uptake/metabolism inhibitors have an antinociceptive effect.

Peace

[Chiral]

So what are we looking at here with someone who was using Benzo's...and ingested muscimol...?

[MindExpansion]

If I'm thinking correctly the sites on the GABAA receptor activated by benzodiazapines is separate to the site activated by GABAA agonists like muscimol, as such the possibility of either of the two possibilities comes to mind (Im not a pharmacologist and this is just my open thinking so someone can correct me if they see im wrong): EITHER they will compete due to conformation change in the receptor resulting from ones binding inhibiting the binding of the other (and ive no idea of which would win as both are strong agonists at their site, probably a combination of effects tilted in the direction of one or the other?), OR they will both bind and activate the seaparate intracellular pathways they were going to activate (likely with some cross over).

Again just my musings.

Peace

[Alchemica]

I wouldn't combine them (or would use greatly reduced doses):

...diazepam has been suspected as strengthening the action of muscimol (Hanrahan & Gordon 1984,

Benjamin 1992).

That said, benzodiazepines are sometimes recommended for the emergency treatment of muscimol-induced seizures/myoclonus and in animal studies, attenuate the hypnotic effects of the drug.

It's safer to assume there will be potentiation - even if there are preliminary animal studies to the contrary.

[mutant]

I am happy that my report was kind of useful.

Swim has used amanitas, cannabis and alcohol in combination, in various proportions. It is a combo I usually discourage people from trying, especially the alcohol-amanita thing. Still if someone is familiar with all 3 substances might wanna experiment. The liver load and the chances of fading out [black out] due to the combined sedative effect of amanita and alcohol INCREASE, or so my instinct says.

I would propably not use benzos and amanitas together, but if I had to, I would use lower amanita doses for sure, as alchemist said, and I would start even more carefully, maybe first smoking some material on top of benzos. All in all, I think the combo benzo+amanita will be significantly more sedative and maybe even dangerous.

Edited May 11, 2009 by mutant