Super Cubes...

[Genesis]

Just went for a stroll in the back yard (45 acres) and froze my fucking arse off. Whilst walking around, as per usual, I had my eye open for some mushrooms and as per usual I found stacks (Nothing active).

I was thinking to myself, "Would it be possible to breed a mushroom to a climate?".

For example: If mycelia from other mushrooms can grow in these cold, Victorian conditions then why could one not grow, over many generations, a Cube strain that did like wise.

I have read about Tassie strains that grow colder than normal cube strains, but every one is like "FUCK OFF IMPOSSIBLE" and what not.

I figure if you grow mycelium on agar at a slightly lower temperature then take the strongest, fastest Rhizomorphic growth and fruit it, take a print or a clone and continue the cycle lowering the temperature each time and selecting the best of the best out of many samples.

Eventually you will suffer poor growth, thus being defeated, or you will have a Cube strain that can be successfully grown below normal Cube temperatures.

Is this possible or am I partly retarded?

And if so how cold do you think a Cube strain could be grown to? And how many generations do you guys think it would take to achieve this?

Cheers lads,

Gen

[apothecary]

I heard cubes grow in Winter in Woodford, QLD.

But it is probably quite warm and humid up there, even in winter.

EDIT: Also consider, there have been cows in cold cold VIC for a long time, what makes you think that if they could grow there they wouldn't have already evolved on their own?

Edited July 24, 2008 by Sina

[Birdman]

I love this thread!

[Genesis]

I love this thread!

DAMN STRAIGHT YOU DO!

Excuse my english I am slightly pissy so I am sure this will be edited tomorrow.

Secondly, Sina, dude... No...

Evolution, from my understanding, takes a lot longer than 200 years... And what do cows have to do with the price of milk (Not sure if that was a pun but it was pretty cool).

I am pretty sure the Australian strain of Cube's is a native, hence why it looks so much different to every other strain. That being said cows have no involvement in the situation due to them not spreading the cube strain. AND even if they did spread it moving cows from QLD to VIC will hardly force the strain to mutate overnight.

Natural selection takes quite some time, hence the human intervention I mentioned. Human intervention can work wonders, look at the domestic breeding we do, can change the characteristics of an animal in very few generations.

So back to my question...

Is it possible to make a low temp cube strain?

[Shroomeup]

I am pretty sure the Australian strain of Cube's is a native, hence why it looks so much different to every other strain. That being said cows have no involvement in the situation due to them not spreading the cube strain.

I don't believe so. From what I know the cube strain came over in the stomachs of some of the first cattle brought over to Australia from north America.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Shroomeup

[apothecary]

Genesis, the actual native species of Psilocybe which is subaeruginosa has indeed shown the capability to adapt and select in 200 years, having been spotted fruiting on cow poo, a new substrate that is otherwise unmimicked in its native range.

Natural selection and evolution has been occuring on Psilocybe cubensis in the countries which it IS native to for millenia and it has yet to expand into any regions which are even remotely as cold and dry as Victoria (with a few exceptions depending on microclimate).

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that in this case (especially given the adaptation of native Psilocybes to introduced environs) it probably already would have happened if it could.

If think that cows and the distribution of cubensis are independant you might want to do some more research.

[Genesis]

Apologies:

Psilocybe Cubensis

"The first livestock to arrive in Australia were brought from the Cape of Good Hope in 1788, and included 2 bulls and 5 cows, along with other domesticated farm animals. By l803, the government owned approximately 1800 cattle, most of which were imported from the Cape, Calcutta, and the west coast of America. It was during this period that some of the visionary mushrooms mentioned in this field guide probably first appeared in Australia (Unsigned, 1973). According to Australian mycologist John Burton Cleland (1934), "fungi growing in cow or horse-dung and confined to such habitats, must in the case of Australia, all belong to introduced species". It is believed to have been the South African dung beetle which may have actually spread the spores. According to English mycologist Roy Watling of the Royal Botanic Gardens in Glasgow, Scotland, "it must be remembered that fungi can change substrate preferences and there are coprophilous fungi on kangaroo droppings etc." Some mycologists who have studied the "magic mushrooms" in Australia and NZ claim that the "use of P. cubensis as a recreational drug tends to confirm the belief that [some] farmers in early times [may have] added one or two basidiomes [gilled mushrooms] to a meal to liven it up [and still do] Margot & Watling, 1981)." "

But that still doesn't rule out breeding for a lower temperature spawning mushroom. Granted it may not be possible to change the mushrooms characteristics so as that they would freely grow in cold Victorian conditions but one could still produce a mushroom that spawns and fruits outside of regular P. Cubensis parameters. Every living thing has the potential to be subject to natural selection, whether it be nature doing the selecting or if it is forced selection by man.

Which brings me back to my first questions:

How cold do you think a Cube strain could be grown to? And how many generations do you guys think it would take to achieve this?

Cheers,

Gen

[Ace]

Slightly different aims involved, but you might want to check out the work that was done in crossing the Penis Envy strain with the Albino Cubensis strains of P. cubensis. A bit of very selective cross breeding and cloning, etc, but the creators managed to cross the two to achieve the goal of an Albino Penis Envy P. cubensis strain. Very interesting work (check the nook, shroomery, etc).

A few generations were grown out and many attempts were made before success was achieved, but it is certainly possible to breed mushrooms (cubensis at that) for particular traits. But I think there is a huge amount of work needed to achieve a cold-resistant cubensis strain.

Your idea of growing under cold conditions and letting (forcing) natural selection take place would be my first guess at a good place to start, but I really think this would be a project worthy of numerous advanced mycologists (but there's no harm in an amature having a crack).

[Wongsan]

When living in NZ there were many "goldies" on the west coast of the North Island (where i lived) ... always very cold there, perhaps a print from one of those might be better suited to "cold" climates?

From memory they were Cubensis Aucklandii though disputed.

Brilliant bright yellow/gold tops on pure white stems etc.

After finding some pics http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5693979 i see these look NOTHING like the big goldies further up north.

I should be cruising back for a visit soon, will see what i can do.... no promises.

Mr Wong.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Wongsan

[apothecary]

Wongsan, please clarify.

Psilocybe aucklandii is a woodloving species completely unrelated to cubensis.

AFAIK there is no such subspecies "cubensis subsp. aucklandii".

Gold-top is a common misnomer which can be applied to just about any Psilocybe mushroom, and hear-say about "goldies in NZ" does not really indicate the presence of cubies to me (especially considering just how many times I've heard that cubensis do NOT grow there).

From my understanding there have been no cubensis specimens submitted to any herbariums or similar in New Zealand.

[Genesis]

Well there we go, that's our new mission. A Cubensis species for NZ call call their own. Us Aussies can take credit for it, just like everything else in NZ... haha

Sina, see you have a new avatar...

Gen

[Wongsan]

Yep well on the west in Dargaville the pines that hedge the cow farms by the beach "friends" always gathered the bright yellow topped on white bodies (don't remember gill colour) on the pastures, there every year for years, some claimed aucklandii other's reasoned on wind carried spore from .au. None were picked / found or even talked about growing in the pines.

I favoured the 2nd theory.

Never actually saw any like the ones described as aucklandii up north.. and i worked in forestry my bad luck i guess.

So yea not cube aucklandii but not psilocybe aucklandii

Edited July 26, 2008 by Wongsan

[CaptAmazing]

I believe you could grow subs in Qld if you watered them. Last time I was in Chinchilla it got to -4 deg C. But it hardly rained. I'd love to spread them up there but I don't like introducing outside species to new areas.

[AndyAmine.]

While I certainly havent found any I believe Subs do grow in QLD.

There are reports they have been found on Springbrook mountain and Ive heard plenty of locals say they have found them around NNSW.

I think they would grow in other similar areas like Lamination etc, particularly the last few years because its been very cold in Winter.

No doubt people in the past have also started their own patches of subs as well both in their gardens or in the 'wild'

[Hyphal]

I'd love to spread them up there but I don't like introducing outside species to new areas.

I have pondered this a lot lately...

Have you ever driven past a large cattle farm? What about a city centre? These things are not natural and I think there are more than enough things already introduced to our ecosystems to not worry about it, the introduction of a mushrooms species is the least of our worries in these environments.

If you are talking about introducing them to an isolated, undisturbed part of native bushland where they are not already then that is a different story - I agree its probably wrong.

But in an urban landscape - go crazy!! The more the merrier...

If they became a weed in an urban environment, to quote someone on here, "I think that would be a great weed problem to have".

And as creach said, there would be more than enough pickers to keep them under control anyway.

[Genesis]

Haha, agreed Hyphalknot. THE MORE THE MERRIER!

Some one from like the Netherlands should test out my theory, I think it would be great. Netherlands are pretty cold too, you could be helping every one out.

Gen

[apothecary]

I was up north recently and someone living in the area had spotted a single P. subaeruginosa growing on the mountain behind Nimbin Rock. Bottom of a steep ravine off a driftwood Eucalypt log lodged on the edge of some creek rocks.

About a month ago. I doubt it was introduced re the plenty of old sightings of P. "eucalypta" in the area.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Sina

[Tiki]

The only way to find out whether or not P. cub could selectively adapt to colder environments would be to breed them in a controlled environment.

Experiment 1: Hyp: P.cub can selectively adapt to survive and reproduce in significantly colder environments.

One would need to start the experiment with a relatively diverse selection of healthy subjects found in colder than average temperatures and define an incremental temperature control that allows some level of successful regeneration. Subjects from each population that are successful under the goal temperature control could be cloned and cross-bred over a decent number of trials (presuming any population successfully regenerates at goal temp). If successful regeneration occurs at this point one could conclude it is possible for P.cub to adapt to significantly colder environments.

Experiment 2: Hyp: In a natural environment P.cub can survive and reproduce under significantly colder temperatures.

On would need a number of ecologically different, yet barometrically similar, fertile, colder locations in which mushrooms other than P.cub are known to exist. It would also be helpful to employ two controls: spores from another species of mushroom found commonly in colder environments; and a location situated in a P.cub friendly temperature zone (in this case one would need to employ some kind of genetic marker attached to test subject in order to conclusively ID it). Cowshit, spores.....results? Once again, to be certain one would need to perform a number of trials.

Analysis:

Success exp 1: confounding variables: x-mutation? Are surviving subjects still P.cub (morphology/DNA)?

Complete success exp 2: 200 years just isn't enough time.

Partial success exp 2: Why were some locations successful and others not? Affective variables: competition at colder temps?; Circadian influences?; viral/bacterial influences?

No success exp 2: Why did they not survive/reproduce?

Anyway....I got a bit carried away here really. To pull this off you'd need a couple of big bloody sheds full of temp-controlled fully isolated growth kits, some microscopes, a shitload of spores, and the self control required to avoid eating the entire experiment and having it all spiral into an epic psychedelic binge that could take some time to resolve cognitively. You'd definitely want to keep me away from it hehe.

[Zen Peddler]

Some info for you guys.

Psilocybe cubensis has been reported in Victoria on a number of occasions, although it is rare. You can actually fruit cubensis outside in victoria on natural or the high-tryptophan substrates like millet preferred nowdays but if they arent covered they generally fair poorly.

I know of one collection of small cubensis found on cow manure on the Penisula near Frankston and the guy who found these was a reputable chap so I have no reason to doubt the find.

That being said, Psilocybe cubensis in Tasmania has never been reported so when BIO came out and collected it and semilanceata, chances are he made a mistake and cataloged a QLD cubie as a tassie. The tassie substrain is a very nice strain however, but it does well at high temps rather than poorly as you would expect if it had delineated towards being a cold-weather phenotype.

Psilocybe subaeruginosa has been collected in southern QLD and I have collected subareuginosa allies in parks near Nimbin and Mullimbimby myself (and even directed Rev to the spot so he could verify the find).

My advice for Victorian and Tasmanians is to concentrate on finding Ps.Semilanceata which was once described as 'common' on sheep pastures at altitude. Dinner plain, Mount Buffalo and the highlands of tassie are fertile grounds.

[PD.]

My advice for Victorian and Tasmanians is to concentrate on finding Ps.Semilanceata which was once described as 'common' on sheep pastures at altitude. Dinner plain, Mount Buffalo and the highlands of tassie are fertile grounds.

well if we ever get descent early autumn rains ill be lookin ZP, just been waaaaay to dry the past coupla years. It gets too cold up the mountains before the rains come.

DRY