Ladies, how hot am I??...

[chilli]

Let's all disagree about things and voice our opinions, it will be neat fun. But let's be logical and sensible too, it will be impressive.

Okay, I'll start the game!

Question: If everyone except me and people I like are cunts, and even the people I like are cunts, then what is a cunt?

Hint: I'm a cunt as well.

Answer: 'cunt' is a word composed of four letters, which many people find offensive.

[ballzac]

report it to the mods and me.

Well I don't know if you know about the shit he was causing in the youtube videos thread, but I'd consider that a calculated attack on a successful, pre-existing thread. Yes, I took the bait, and it was stupid of me to take the bait even after I realised who it was, but that is the way trolls work. There is always going to be someone stupid enough to take the bait, and a troll will try everything they know to get a response. Yes I was partly resposible for the direction that thread started going in (until someone intelligent came in and got the thread back on topic ), but the thread was doing fine until WS arrived.

He has edited out some of his more provocative statements in that thread, but it is not because he didn't think they should be said, it was just another form of provocation. Saying that underage sex/porn is the best kind is not just revolting to most, it is also illegal...and not in the, "oops I said I picked a mushroom" kind of way. Attacking my sexuality I find personally offensive, and I also find it generally offensive. That is, I think I would find it offensive even if it wasn't me he was attacking. I know we all say controversial things at times and we all lose our cool from time to time, and I am certainly no exception, but it is different when the entire purpose of a post is to cause friction and offense, and to destroy a thread. If he has started the thread then I am happy to ignore it, but when he attacks existing threads I think it is not on.

Now you say to report his attacks. I don't think there's really any point in reporting it every time he causes problems. You guys aren't blind. This has only just started, but there is going to be a certain level of this and I think you are going to be aware of a large amount of what is going on. There will be a level that you find acceptable, and if it gets bad enough you will find it unacceptable. All I'm asking is, "how much of this are we willing to accept?"

Why is everyone so happy to stick up for this guy?

[apothecary]

Shit. My fault for not monitoring the Youtube thread, 1000 apologies ballzac.

WS originally posted a bunch of youtube threads in the chill, I deleted them and requested he repost in the appropriate thread. I did not realise at the time that he was WS. There's a report button, please do not hesitate to use it.

I never monitor this thread anymore because it has NEVER been an issue before. Good to know someone stepped in. Once I haven't been awake for 28 hours I'll go through and clean it up.

Last night WS made personal attacks against members and posted a rather idiotic NSFW thread which were all dealt with quickly, mostly due to immense work boredom and immense pissed-offness at clicking NSFW links at work!

His warn level was upped to 2/3 (one for personal attacks in this thread and one for the other thread) and I enforced moderator preview before his posts become visible in this subforum for seven days.

[ballzac]

Shit. My fault for not monitoring the Youtube thread, 1000 apologies ballzac.

WS originally posted a bunch of youtube threads in the chill, I deleted them and requested he repost in the appropriate thread. I did not realise at the time that he was WS. There's a report button, please do not hesitate to use it.

Now I do feel kind of bad about not just reporting it, in spite of what I said before about there not being much point. I guess even if you guys are aware of a certain level of this, the more you know about, the quicker he will be banned and the happier I will be.

[Torsten]

It's not about getting him banned. It's about setting limits that he can understand and operate by. if that fails then he gets banned - and this time for good.

I haven't looked at the threads in question, but I am sure the mods are handling it.

As for using the "report post" function, I can only keep reminding folks to use it whenever they feel iffy about a post. Just because someone reports a post doesn't mean the poster will get into trouble, so don't feel bad about using it. It just means that mods will look at a post more closely or even for the first time and more importantly they will keep an eye on how the thread develops. if we had more people using the report function we wouldn't get trolls establishing themselves unnnoticed.

The other advantage of using the report button is that once a troll gets deleted I often also purge all his posts [depending on whether there are any of substance]. So, if you decide to take matters into your own hands and post against a troll, then the troll posts get deleted, the only posts that remain will be yours and that can look pretty silly and downright rude at times . Sooooo, use the magic button.

[chilli]

Why is everyone so happy to stick up for this guy?

I didn't think anyone was sticking up for him?

During the last WS debacle, I did stick up for him I guess, but it was more sticking up for the underdog against the incensed mob in general than WS specifically.

I like WS when he is not acting like a dick, which he unfortunately seems to do quite a bit.

Not to worry though, it looks like he will be banned soon so then everything can return to normal.

*edit* Actually, I kind of appreciate him when he's acting like a dick too, but I'm perverse like that.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Sublime Crime

[ballzac]

I didn't think anyone was sticking up for him?

It just seems to me that many people are willing to put up with more from him that from others. Sobriquet, onemind, and even GO, got treated a lot worse on these forums, and it was always my impression that WS caused a lot more trouble (and did so with much more intent) than those three combined. I just don't really understand why, that's all. Maybe people find WS charming in some strange way and are able to cut him a little slack, i dunno.

[Torsten]

It just seems to me that many people are willing to put up with more from him that from others. Sobriquet, onemind, and even GO, got treated a lot worse on these forums, and it was always my impression that WS caused a lot more trouble (and did so with much more intent) than those three combined. I just don't really understand why, that's all. Maybe people find WS charming in some strange way and are able to cut him a little slack, i dunno.

Sobriquet's only aim of being here was to manipulate. It was a complex long term social experiment for him. Because he was so good at manipulation and because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt we basically got fucked over by him in a huge way.

Onemind is a totally different story. He is actually smart, articulate and has no interest in manipulating people. he just can't be civil when something pisses him off. If he found a better way to deal with his anger and frustration then he would be welcome here. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he is already back under a new nic and behaving himself - until something religious pisses him off again.

GO was a mix between the two [i'll get a caning for saying this ]. On one hand very outspoken, but on the other hand he liked to manipulate - especially when sobriquet was around. he goes through phases like that and sadly gets himself booted during the peak of those phases. Turns out the last time I booted him he was just drunk. Life is a bitch.

WS is different alltogether. he needs an outlet for his wild phantasies and conspiracies, but also has a very creative edge. There is a fine line between genius and utter nuttiness and I think this is what people appreciate [especially in this community]. The problem is that such individuals usually have troughs and peaks, and in the case of WS at least one of these is not compatible with the general tone of this forum.

So, just like some of our longest serving members have had their drunken, uberstoned, or emotionally unstable moments online for which they may have been suspended or simply edited, I think we are always hopeful that WS will get his phase under control and not be a total dick. However, there is a limit to all this. It is also important for members to realise that mods will often not intervene if they think that no one took offense [unless it is obviously offensive].

[ballzac]

Sobriquet's only aim of being here was to manipulate. It was a complex long term social experiment for him. Because he was so good at manipulation and because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt we basically got fucked over by him in a huge way.

Are you able to expand on this? I obviously missed something, because I just thought he got kicked for dragging threads into the gutter, similar to GO and onemind. What do you mean by "got fucked over"?

[incognito]

downboy! chillout sac!

[Torsten]

Are you able to expand on this? I obviously missed something, because I just thought he got kicked for dragging threads into the gutter, similar to GO and onemind. What do you mean by "got fucked over"?

well, it was a never ending game of how far he can push the mods and me without getting banned. His main trick was to use double meanings and images in a way to really hurt people, but in such a way that he could always claim innocence. But worst was that he was actually doing this systematically to individual members. It took me 3 months to even notice that he was upsetting members, by which time quite a few had left or gone into lurk mode. he managed to even get a mod to quite the forums more or less.

By constantly engaging the mods and me into really complex arguments he managed to get away with doing this for a long time. It wasn't till I worked out that the only reason he was posting substance and support for 'some' members was so that there would be an outcry if he got banned, that I finally got a handle on dealing with him. I'll admit it, he outsmarted me for a long time. Not that that is something to be proud of because really it just means he abused my good nature and my willingness to give people multiple chances. The mods and I got so wrapped up in the whole thign that we completely lost sight of what was going on.

Grenn Osiris was instrumental in keeping sobriquet hidden from view. probably not so much intentionally as it was fortuitous for two skilled manipulators to be on this forum at the same time. The sheer volume of arguments and underhanded comments was too much for us to deal with in the supportive way we usually try to run this forum.

The experience with sobriquet has certainly left me in a position where I will ban people much sooner. I mean, it's not like cancelling a forum nic is eliminating someone's life. In most cases the banned member can simply sign up again and stay under the radar.

And if there was any doubt as to sobriquet's intentions, just look at the game he played with Gom's forum. Multiple usernames polluting the whole forum to the point where whole threads ended up having to be deleted. It was just another one of his games as he wanted to test the non-censorship guarantee of the new forum's mods and admin. And he won again, because he got Gom to do exactly what he said he would never do - censor and ban. Once sobriquet made his point he lost interest in that forum.

Ultimately sobriquet lost though, because he is either not here or is playing by our rules. he must be pretty fucked up to be taking pleasure in manipulating people on the basis of their benevolence. Kinda like stealing from your trusting partner or from a charity.

[ballzac]

Hmmm, yes. I was kind of aware of a lot of that but had not realised how malicious and relentless it was, as obviously I do not get the same overview that you and the mods get. I do seem to remember him posting a picture of a vagina with teeth or something like that in response to a post from one of the female members, and then claiming he was not implying anything by it. I guess maybe I should have a little faith and accept that if there is a reason for someone being given more or less of a chance than others there is a reason.

I just think that those that get banned once come back with a different username and get banned again because that is who they are. Has anyone been banned and then come back and managed to be a productive member of the community? WS has already started causing problems, and he's barely been back for five minutes.

[Torsten]

Hmmm, yes. I was kind of aware of a lot of that but had not realised how malicious and relentless it was

6 months all up.

I do seem to remember him posting a picture of a vagina with teeth or something like that in response to a post from one of the female members, and then claiming he was not implying anything by it.

That was the turning point. before this people were just leaving without comment, but the vagina pic discussion actually got some so incensed that they brought the long term issue to my attention.

I guess maybe I should have a little faith and accept that if there is a reason for someone being given more or less of a chance than others there is a reason.

The mods and admin often know personal background issues with problem members which are not public knowledge. Sometimes these are periodic mental health issues [very common], sometimes they are just a phase they are going through as a result of events, and sometimes it's just young naivety. Each set of circumstances gets dealt with differently.

Has anyone been banned and then come back and managed to be a productive member of the community?

We currently have 3 very productive members who actually left as a result of me having a chat with them about their imminent banning who then came back sometime later and were quite different people. We've got at least 2 members who have been banned and who returned to be long term productive members [but not currently]. Plus we have many who voluntarily started new profiles because they no longer wanted to be associated with their previous 'soiled' ones. The first and last option happens quite regularly with young members who do a bit of growing up. I don't accept those requests unless I see some real merit.

All up I think we've had about the same number of problem members redeem themselves as we've had tools abusing their second chance. Otherwise I wouldn't bother investing so much time into them.

WS has already started causing problems, and he's barely been back for five minutes.

I really haven't looked into what he's done because I prefer mods to deal with these issues themselves. We have a flexible and effective security system that allows mods to suspend members or to put their postings on moderator approval [ie you don't get to see it until the mod has checked it]. The warning system also allows the member to learn how far he can go before getting banned.

If the trouble spans over several subforums and gets out of hand I'll intervene.

[chilli]

he got Gom to do exactly what he said he would never do - censor and ban. Once sobriquet made his point he lost interest in that forum.

I thought I'd read Gomaos saying that you were too soft on trolls, and he wouldn't let them take advantage of him the same way they did you... am I getting mixed up with something else?

Is the furore surrounding Sobriquet why a lot of the older, better members don't come here anymore, or is it just because of people like me?

[incognito]

definately because of people like u SC.

Edited June 8, 2008 by jono

[Spines]

Dudes:

NOT sure why I am posting this, except that I have read page after page after (mindless) page. As a newbie - I read ALL the posts. Half of these posts are actually fuelling the self-satisfied troll.

I didn't even know what a troll was until this, but I can only assume that even trolls have reasons to join - other than to inflate their rather shallow, selfless egos. If everyone, just ignores the crap, and follows the thread, and stupid posts are deleted, then surely, a troll will go elsewhere, or behave?

Create a topic called Trolls - shame them by adding their names - add a comment by the mods. Make it that they cannot be spoken about after a mod has shunned them - make them no longer exist - without wanting to insult our native indigenous culture point the proverbial "Australian aborigine bone" at them.

Even in this mind expanding forum / site there still has to be rules?

"It is natural to give a clear view of the world after accepting the idea that it must be clear.

Albert Camus"

[Torsten]

I thought I'd read Gomaos saying that you were too soft on trolls, and he wouldn't let them take advantage of him the same way they did you... am I getting mixed up with something else?

Nope. Gom repeatedly stated that he could not tolerate being censored [for the abuse he was hurling at other members and in his political rants] and that this is why he was leaving and then starting his own forum. Even when faced with the dramas sobriquet and others were causing him he tried to edit as little as possible and also tried not to delete any members no matter how much they trolled. Things got out of hand and eventually gom had to do both. First editing many many posts, then deleting several members. btw, I am not criticising him for this as he really did not have much of a choice and given my previous experience I would have acted much sooner. I just thought it was ironic because a single troll managed to make him fold on what he claimed to be the core reason for needing a separate forum. [note, I think there are much more important reasons]

Is the furore surrounding Sobriquet why a lot of the older, better members don't come here anymore, or is it just because of people like me?

People move on. overall there hasn't been a higher rate of attrition than normal. It was actually the first few months of sobriquet's games where we lost many senior members. Once the shit hit the fan we really didn't lose many anymore as they knew it was being dealt with. Some did tune out for a while, but ended up coming back.

I think one of the main reasons why it appears we are losing senior members is because people keep changing their names. As admin I get to see log in names, which don't change, so I see there is very little movement.

[chilli]

Thanks for the explanations, Mr. Cool.

You are pretty cool by the way, I like your compassionate approach to trolls.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Sublime Crime

[apothecary]

Create a topic called Trolls - shame them by adding their names - add a comment by the mods. Make it that they cannot be spoken about after a mod has shunned them - make them no longer exist - without wanting to insult our native indigenous culture point the proverbial "Australian aborigine bone" at them.

Even in this mind expanding forum / site there still has to be rules?

Didn't you just propose a rule?

[baphomet]

I hear that trolls float so why don't we just throw them in a river and if they sink they are innocent and if they float we burn them?

[chilli]

Didn't you just propose a rule?

I read what he wrote in a different sense, ie. even on such a super-spiritual forum we still have to have rules, surely?

[Spines]

Didn't you just propose a rule?

mmmm RULES are there even for the benefit of free thinking radically considered ethno folk.

I mean, isn't there enough crap going on in the world right now to not also get it from a place (like this site) that you choose to go to and relax and forget about the crap?

I realise that as this topic is NOT about "Ladies, how hot am I??..." and this in itself could be considered troll-like behaviour...

"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are - Joseph Campbell"

[ThunderIdeal]

i don't think anybody will care since the thread originally had no substance.

i'm not sure why you're bothering to run with this issue of moderation though. it's a forum of free-thinking weirdos, that's true. however even free-thinking weirdos can behave like every body else and hey, every body else has access here anyway.

i've never seen a good forum without moderation. the moderation here (from what us plebs can see) is quite fair and forgiving, so i wonder what it is you want to see here that isn't here already.

[Spines]

i'm not sure why you're bothering to run with this issue of moderation though.

Only because, as I read it, there was a LOT of talk about moderation and the problem with Trollz. I've said my piece, offerred up a view - wasn't having a go at anyone... will crawl back into my box and tape the lid shut.

But in keeping with the thread... How hot will I be then

[apothecary]

I read what he wrote in a different sense, ie. even on such a super-spiritual forum we still have to have rules, surely?

My bad. Sorry!

But in keeping with the thread... How hot will I be then

Watch out Spines, dc has a serious box fetish.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Sina