Tip of the iceberg

[MindExpansion]

This is always hard for me to explain but I think it's worth saying:

A while back a friend started trying LSD, they had been smoking pot for a while but LSD quickly caught there interest.

They tried it many times and often in less than ideal circumstances, but each time every trip was considered a learning experience, whether one would call them 'bad' or 'good' i don't know because they believe that each trip teaches a valuable lesson and so they are all 'good' in a philosophical sense, and after all, that drug to them is primarily philosophical a lot of the time.

When tripping they often smoked what, in retrospect they admit was probably too much pot.

One of the prominent effects they noticed the LSD had was to make them feel as if they could see people's 'hidden' meanings for saying things. This is where it gets hard to explain, they felt that almost everything other people said had a deeper meaning to it, and normally this deaper meaning would not be exposed and what was said would simply be taken at face value. The LSD seemed to make them see these meaning behind the words and actions of others. This 'insight' was terrifying at first because there was no way to be sure if the meanings they saw were really there, or if it was all in their mind. After a while, they started to worry a lot about schizophrenia/psychosis/their head just getting messy and thought they should take a large break from the acid. They still smoked pot but the reason they stopped the acid was because they had started seeing this 'deeper meaning' when they weren't on trips. This was scarier than seeing them when under the influence of a strong psychedelic because this meant that a change in the mind had occurred.

After a lot of thought they realised that this insight may have been a gift, a positive alteration of thought to give the ability to read people better, and read them completely. This for a time led to it seeming less daunting, they felt that they could relate to people better because they recognised how people really felt about situations. After a while this 'insight' became somewhat less pronounced. After this break they began taking LSD again and noticed that the insight didn't return immedicately. However it started after a while, particularly when smoking, this led to smoking with others being terribly awkward, even being stoned around other people was often awkward as they noticed that the interactions between people that otherwise seemed to get along had hidden messages and resentments. This, after not long led to them becoming seriously worried about psychosis or schizophrenia, because the meanins they saw in peoples actions seemed more and more negative. Two them this meant one thing. Their paranoia had increased significantly to the point where everyone seemed against each other OR the people they were hanging out with were very closed with their feelings and without the 'insight' they had never realised how their friends truly felt about each other.

What I learnt from my friend's experience:

The reason I titled this 'the tip of the iceberg' is because of the 'iceberg theory' of communication. This is that as with an iceberg, we see a third of what people are communicating, the other 2/3rds are hidden and some may be seen through body language, i believe that the LSD and to a lesser extent the pot (which may have simply precipitated the insight LSD had caused) let them see the whole iceberg, top to bottom, where few people could.

Not sure why I posted it, just thought it might be an interesting read, but if you actually read through it all id love to hear thoughts and comments.

Peace,

Mind

Oh, and for fear of their sanity my friend has recently quit pot, finding that it was now too awkward and caused too much paranoia to enjoy.

Edited May 23, 2008 by MindExpansion

[herbologist]

I know someone who had pretty much exactly the same experience you posted about, except they got to the point where they were worrying about how others would be (if able to) interpreting their hidden meaning. They also felt that they could sit and watch a group of friends and discern what was going on by watching body language alone- Surprisingly they were right about 80 % of the time

Edited May 23, 2008 by salem13

[MindExpansion]

Salem, part of the reason my friend found many social situations a bit awkward was that they were worried about wether relevant others would see the meaning they saw. The part about body language is interesting. Oddly enough I have another friend who had a very similar experience to the one I described.

Peace,

Mind

[nabraxas]

They also felt that they could sit and watch a group of friends and discern what was going on by watching body language alone- Surprisingly they were right about 80 % of the time

yep. been there. seeing the non-verbal cues -- how people position themselves within a group, how they hold themselves, what gestures they make; & then the extra-verbal cues -- how they talk, who they address, who they ignore, who gets talked over etc.

it can all seem very obvious when your senses are enhanced.

[devance]

Jack Vance ' The languages of Pao'

I looking foreword to nax comments with the 'very obvious when your senses are enhanced.' or perhaps he still sleeping with Naga.

On torrents easly availiable.

[serenes]

the messages hidden behind every encounter; waiting to be heard and learnt from. We are all reflections of ourselves.. we must first heal ourselves... perhaps it is a state we can gain without relying on earths substances for the leg up... maybe all we have to do is ask... to see the truth in every word, and act from pure love

[nabraxas]

The languages of Pao-- i read it over 25 years ago, so i had to use wiki to refresh my memory. I think i agree w/their conclusion that the conditioning ov the 3 classes wasn't solely dependent on language, but it does raise the issue ov the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis.

In linguistics, the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis (SWH) (also known as the "linguistic relativity hypothesis") postulates a systematic relationship between the grammatical categories of the language a person speaks and how that person both understands the world and behaves in it. Although known as the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, it was an underlying axiom of linguist and anthropologist Edward Sapir and his colleague and student Benjamin Whorf.

The hypothesis postulates that a particular language's nature influences the habitual thought of its speakers: that different language patterns yield different patterns of thought. This idea challenges the possibility of perfectly representing the world with language, because it implies that the mechanisms of any language condition the thoughts of its speaker community. The hypothesis emerges in strong and weak formulations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_Hypothesis

This relates to the previous topic ov art v porn. When i commented that, among other things art can be seen as culturally defined, that also includes by language.

So the Japanese or Eskimo speaker will see art, or even a chair, differently from the way i do.

edit: To get back on topic; obviously then, LSD which enhances a persons ability to see meaning in body & verbal language will add another level ov complexity to a persons understanding ov their surroundings on top ov the massively increased amounts ov sensory data they will already be getting.

It's not surprising that most people prefer not to take LSD around large groups ov people, especially large groups ov people who haven't also taken something similar.

Edited May 24, 2008 by nabraxas

[MindExpansion]

Indeed Nabraxas. But what about the change that lasts long after the trip wears off, and also, the precipitating of that experience by something like marijuana? Can anyone suggest why this might occur? My knowledge of the brain is limited but perhaps they imbed new neurological pathways and so thoughts follow those similar pathways rather than the old ones?

Peace,

Mind

[chilli]

MindExpansion, did you mean to refer primarily to body language and other subtle but apparent non-verbal cues, or did you have something more mystical in mind when you mentioned "deeper meanings"?

[ThunderIdeal]

i would think it could it could get a whole lot more mystical than what is being described, with sid involved.

[nabraxas]

But what about the change that lasts long after the trip wears off

Well, once you've learned to see the non verbal cues it can be hard to stop noticing them, like if you buy a new Lexus you suddenly seem to notice that there are alot ov Lexus's about....there are no more than there were before it's just that you are more conscious ov them.

the precipitating of that experience by something like marijuana?

Strong marijuana when used occasionally can be highly psychoactive.

The kind ov things i'm describing are tricky. They can begin to mess w/your head. It's not much ov a step from believing that you can identify all the social gameplaying maneuvers to believing that everyones talking about you.

Go easy.

Edited May 25, 2008 by nabraxas

[devance]

Well, once you've learned to see the non verbal cues it can be hard to stop noticing them, like if you buy a new Lexus you suddenly seem to notice that there are alot ov Lexus's about....there are no more than there were before it's just that you are more conscious ov them.

Alot better than the scientologis explain, which is just a insurance salesman on steroids.

For selling a illusionary product for a alot of money.

Never mistake a christian for a horrible cult.

But alot out there; for instance there the state cult.

If haven't killed for the state [ in the military]not a viable political candidate.

[devance]

I seem to have nasty key logger and trojan.

I wouldn't have know it, but shown me deliberatly.

So a security scan might be in order.

[nabraxas]

If haven't killed for the state [ in the military]not a viable political candidate.

Word.

i'm feelin ya Devo.

[serenes]

Just a thought... if one remembers that we live in a state of order, and everything is in its rightful place; therefor eliminating any sense of paranoia; would this insight into the way humans interact with one another be a blessing? if everytime one takes on an artificially (ganja, lsd etc) mood enhancing substance, they seek/receive a learning experience... would it not be beneficial to experience this same lesson further throught the day to day activities, grounding the subject with tools to use it in every day society? Salem mentioned of his friend who was right 80% of the time... and nebraxus you mentioned a scientific understanding of it all... paranoia is an illusion created by the ego... roll with it, enjoy the journey, love everyone despite their faults.. their shit not yours, or maybe it is yours consideing we are all a reflection of ourselves... sorry iv started baubbling and gone right off on a tangent again ...

peace

[MindExpansion]

Hey a few things for me to reply to there.

@Sublime Crime:

It seems somewhat a combination of what has been said, along with something more mystical. The ability to see someones emotions, feelings, thoughts, intentions and objectives just from a single word, or a piece of body language.

Seemed to go beyond just an improvement of reading body language, i mean im not so much one to believe what im about to say, but seemed as if one could read the energy from within their body and detect what they felt... intense stuff, and as such leading to the feeling of worry about psychosis.

While im sure a lot of it was just an increase in sensory ability and the depth of thought going into it, ive described it before as 'reading too much into things' but the difficulty came in deciding whether that 'too much' was really there, or a figment of my mind. After qutie a while my friend thought that they were quite certainly real, but even if that was the case, the negative vibes floating around between people that to most wouldve been hidden were enough to be disconcerting and make them want to not be able to see these 'deeper meanings' anymore. Some of the positive vibes led to strong emotional feelings, such as seeing true friendship in a sense so strong they had never realised the depth of that friendship before. They eventually, as i said, adjusted to it and considered it a gift, but the uncomfortable situations it led to again eventually made them want to not have this ability anymore, so they decided to quit smoking, which leads me to my next point.

@Nabraxas

Im not sure what you consider occassional, but they weren't using MJ at what they would think to be an occassional rate. This made them even more worried about the possibility of psychosis/schizophrenia as the evidence linking them is fairly indesputable now.

@Serenes

As ive said, the question of whether or not this was a gift was a key thought to my friend.

They changed opinions on this many times and I now believe it is to an extent, but isnt to another, they have told me that the amount of negative vibes people hide from each other which they could see because of this 'gift' was incredible, it made them realise to what extent many people truly do put on a mask to hide many of their true feelings. So while this 'gift' did help them with their interactions with people, and this is a lasting effect, the negative aspects were wnough to make them want to be rid of it, at least for a while.

Peace,

Mind

[nabraxas]

has stopping smoking helped?

i used to love MJ. i used everyday from 18 to 38 in large quantities. then for health reasons i cut down to once a week & found that i really didn't enjoy it at all.

'reading too much into things' & thinking too much about things; not feeling relaxed & comfortable but agitated & on edge; & then once i'd got over that & smoked more, i'd just be so stoned i couldn't stand up for more than 5 minutes.

i feel much better without it.

Edited May 26, 2008 by nabraxas

[MindExpansion]

It has certainly helped and it hasn't been long since they stopped using. Just all round even when not high, they were feeling worse than they normally do now. This may have something to do with the fact that THC is stored in the fat as it is not water soluble. As such, when you burn fat, I have the theory that it is more than likely that you are becoming intoxicated to some extend no matter how subtley this may be happening.

Peace,

Mind

[incognito]

i really miss the 'erb!

i miss it the most when theres a really good doco on tv. thats when i found mj most pleasurable, to enhance a really good movie or doco.

ive been of it for 5 weeks now completely, and id hafto say i DO feel alot better for it.

my memory is definately alot better, and my motivation has improved a zillion fold.

i long for the day i can have a toke again nonetheless!

[ThunderIdeal]

jono i quit fairly frequently, i think you are going to face my problem (i can't beat this one yet), in that once you have that toke again, IT'S ON.

i always enjoy it so much, then it becomes daily humdrum. if i could only.... save it for the weekends... or whatever..... it would be such a valuable habit, instead it's just a nasty habit.

[chilli]

I know I sound like a broken record, but vaporizing or cooking your pot makes it a MUCH more pleasurable and healthy experience than smoking it.

[ThunderIdeal]

you're right of course. i am a bong fiend, i won't take it any other way, but in order to use it more beneficially i should eat.

[MindExpansion]

I know that cooking it is a different experience but i gootta agree with SUblime Crime, vapo is the way to go, ive mentioned this in another post, but next time you smoke a bong, put a tissue over it. It discintegrates the tissue, the alveoli in your lungs are one cell thick...Check youtube for really simple instructions to make a good vapouriser out of a light bulb, a bottle cap and a drinking straw.

I know its not the same as smoking a j or a billy, but if its a regular thing...well ive been told and this I actually believe because it was a from a fairly un-biased medical source, that a bong hit deposits the same amount of tar in the lungs as 5 ciggies.

Ahh Jono, youre a few weeks ahead of my friend on that, and how he misses it, the days of sitting out on the veranda and spliffing up listening to the birds or some nice music are days that he misses greatly, but there is a point where you just have to weight up the pros and cons, and the cons outweighed the pros, and as ive explained they had reached a point where MJ was no longer as enjoyable.

Thunder, my friend can identify with you, but they had too many obligations to have it as a daily habbit (Except over the last summer...that got wild)

Peace,

Mind

[ThunderIdeal]

i'm gonna try this tissue. does it just break, or it actually is obliterated?

i have a vapouriser. it's not the same. obviously, i am less attached to the MJ high as i am to the bong hit (including tobacco). i KNOW that it's a fucked up habit, that's why i always quit for a long period. i think if it's going to be treated purely as an MJ high, and you aren't in a rush, then eating is the way.

[MindExpansion]

Ahhh the bong hit, how my friend remembers it fondly. I suppose its like what I've heard of some intravenous drug users who, even when not injecting the drug of their addiction, need to feel the needle hit.

I have seen it completely discintegrate, as in leave a hole surrounded by a brown edge over the whole bong opening, and on other occassions I have seen it tear. Suppose it must depend on a few things, but the fact that it can discintegrate a tissue was enough to put my friend off a while ago, they didnt stop but it was on their mind more than before when they thought that they couldn't be at much risk of lung damage from a single bong. Even joints with a roach rather than a filter started to worry them when they considered the 5x the tar fact, I think that figure is very much related to the way one smoked the MJ vs a cigarette. Typically much deeper and held for as long as is humany possible (in many cases).

They do feel however, that the most prominent effects of quitting have been in the mind rather than physical effects, but they haven't exactly done an experimental comparison and I've no doubt that his respiration is a bit better already.

Peace,

Mind