kadakuda Posted January 20, 2008 could it be that perhaps diffusa/fricii/koehresii parted ways form williamsii and they are all in fact different species? or perhaps all lophophora were like this and williamsii parted ways with the fricii/koehresii group? any williamsii/diffusa crosses i have tried have failed, no matter who was the pollen donor/receiver......but my "koehresii" sure does love my "fricii" pollen!!!! just so you know i am using these plants...you can look at the flowers and draw your own conclusions on ID, but i believe them to be koehresii and fricii. in fact one of my koehresii has 3 fat fruits ripening now...should be interesting to see how the babies look. teotz. good luck on your cacti, they look great!!!! in 10-20 years your ariocarpus may look like this beast! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted January 21, 2008 quite a few of these false peyotes contain hordenine as the main alkaloid. hordenine seems to have some stimulant effects and is a mao inhibitor. combining false peyotes and true peyotes would give increased effects. this may have been done when they could not find enough true peyotes. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted January 21, 2008 wow, that ariocarpus.....didnt dream they grew that big what is the hight of that plant?......pics can distort scale t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted January 21, 2008 you can look at the flowers and draw your own conclusions on ID, but i believe them to be koehresii and fricii. Yep, I'd deam your IDs to be spot on. The kaktusy booklet on the lophophorae indicate that there are indeed the 4 sub species, L williamsii, fricii, koehresii and diffusa, with williamsii looking somewhat unique from the others which fall under a possible 'diffusae' classification. I can see where this might be very well true - williamsii indeed does have a unique alkaloid profile and a very distinct appearance. The others, fricii, koehresii and diffusa are all somewhat similar in appearance, perticularly in rib structures. Diffusa tend to have a much brighter skin (epidermis) and I believe that it was via environmental and breeding changes between williamsii and diffusa that the others, fricii and koehresii came to be. No real basis for this other than localities, appearance, flower structure, etc. Would be interesting to see how the cross breeding/sterility/fertility comes into my thoughts. I wonder why it is that some crosses can only work one way and not both (i.e. mother to father, not father to mother, etc)? Michael, do you have any suggestions for this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted January 21, 2008 teotz, can you edit post 69 to include the ids of the cactii please? thanx t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M S Smith Posted January 21, 2008 I'd agree with four different "species," but I probably wouldn't so quickly put L. fricii over towards L. diffusa even if L. koehresii will accept L. fricii pollen while L. williamsii seemingly will not. Anderson infers from rib structure that L. williamsii has more "evolutionary divergence and specialization." Should both L. diffusa (and by extention L. koehresii) and L. fricii lack such "divergence and specialization" due to being more "primative" forms of Lophophora maybe the possibiliy exists that L. fricii and L. diffusa (L. koehresii) can cross easily both ways due to their being less "specialized" while neither can cross readily into the more "evolved" L. williamsii. kadakuda, though I would agree with the ID of your plants, I am always weary of how "pure" most of the L. fricii in cultivation is. I have more faith in L. koehresii due to it being in cultivation for a much shorter time. Ace, I would strongly disagree that L. fricii is "somewhat similar in appearance, particularly in rib structures," to either L. diffusa or L. koehresii, particularly when the plants are fully mature. ~Michael~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted January 21, 2008 Ace, I would strongly disagree that L. fricii is "somewhat similar in appearance, particularly in rib structures," to either L. diffusa or L. koehresii, particularly when the plants are fully mature. No doubt that there are quite obvious differences, but in general I think that they are rather similar and can be somewhat difficult to ID without a flower (at least IME, if no one elses). The pics in the loph ID thread show the differences and similarities, mostly that williamsii is the one that tends to stand out the most (when observing rib structure only). The others within the so-called 'diffusae' (diffusa, fricii, koehresii) all tend to have a somewhat 'pinecone-like' type of patterning in the ribs, whereas williamsii tend to have very distinct vertical or occasionally spiraling ribs. That said, diffusa is also very easy to pick due to its bright yellow-green skin and 'dumpling' look. Fricii is easy to spot due to the 'pinecone' pattern and greyish skin and finally Koehresii can be slightly harder to spot due to its similarities with the others, only truly standing out due to its long and pointed flowers. The flowers are always the easiest way to tell the 4 subspecies apart, but without them, things can be hard especially for those without too much experience. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted January 21, 2008 Post #69- 1st pic- C. compacta 2nd pic- A. fissuratus 3rd pic- M. craigii 4th pic- M. craigii 5th pic- Astrophytum asterias More pics soon! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) I am always weary of how "pure" most of the L. fricii in cultivation is. I have more faith in L. koehresii due to it being in cultivation for a much shorter time. yes there is always doubt with cultivated plants, no question. guess teh only way is to get wild collected seeds, but then there is doubt they were ID'd correctly... EDIT: just a thought that crossed my mind. I have tried giving my fricii pollen from koehresii, williamsii and regular diffusa (3 different fricii) and have never once gotten seeds from them except when crossed with other "fricii". i have also only gotten it to produce with its pollen in koehresii. this makes me wonder how much it could have been hybridized in cultivation. surely it is possible, but i can see other forms which are much more receptive to other "species/subspecies" being more dirty in their genes.....jsut a thought....i totally agree they are possibly mutts of some kind. jsut a thought. the above ariocarpus is about 15x20 cm...roughly. Edited January 21, 2008 by kadakuda Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted January 21, 2008 This has turned out to be quite a thread... Tho you guys are a little off topic... O well....all my threads seem to turn out like this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted January 22, 2008 hehe sorry dude, at least this time we are learning something instead of...you know what... on a aside note i have forgotten to water my astro's for over a month, which made them begin flowering...how nice for your things like astros (many cv's have harder skin than other cacti) i would suggest you use slow release fertilizer and don't over do it. they can split fairly easily if over fed/watered...a way bigger threat in my opinion than rot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted January 22, 2008 (edited) It's interesting that a dry spell made it flower. Any discussion is welcome in my thread... I'm just glad the drama has past. Edited January 22, 2008 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted January 22, 2008 It's interesting that a dry spell made it flower. You'd be suprised at how the thought of death instantly pushes a plant to flower. Often recently cut trichs will set out buds, and usually even bloom due to the fact that they might die in the near future. Same goes with cannabis when the light cycle is cut back (simulating the end of the growing season). It's quite amazing how the survival mechanism for a species can be seen so commonly throught all of nature. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted January 23, 2008 tis amazing. in general the more you water your astros the less they flower. very general terms...but they like dry conditions to flower. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 4, 2008 If ANYONE knows ANYBODY who has eaten psychoactive cacti BESIDES Lophophora and Trichocereus PLEASE tell me EVERYTHING you POSSIBLY can tell me about it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonic Posted February 4, 2008 If ANYONE knows ANYBODY who has eaten psychoactive cacti BESIDES Lophophora and Trichocereus PLEASE tell me EVERYTHING you POSSIBLY can tell me about it! Ummmm yeah right!!!! Sooooo Teotz how are those 'false peyote' seedlings coming along? I would presume you have atleast 100 seedlings of Ariocarpus spp. and others growing along nicely by now? Just opening a fresh packet of Astrophytum asterias and Astrophytum capricorne between sentences. Ready to start germinating them tommorow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 4, 2008 Ummmm yeah right!!!! I know....I know... Keep you fingers crossed.... I posted on every single entheogenic forum I could think of.... Hopefully SOMEBODY out there has eaten one.... I kinda doubt it tho... I'm starting from seed in the spring. I do have some new adult plants tho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted February 4, 2008 what exactly are you looking to find out, if i may ask? if these cacti get you high? sick? how long they take to grow. if you state your specific goal then maybe it will be easier to discuss the topic ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonic Posted February 4, 2008 Keep you fingers crossed.... What for? If I did that my fingers would get sore and also I would probably develop arthritis and then I couldn't come on here and type out snide remarks in your general direction? I posted on every single entheogenic forum I could think of....Hopefully SOMEBODY out there has eaten one.... I kinda doubt it tho... Did you consider that possibly your aproach leaves a little to be desired? Well quite alot actually... Maybe a less pushy approach might yield more positive results. Have you actually tried talking one on one to people within the ethnobotany community? Or better yet indigenous people from Mexico? Or maybe even starting a well constructed and well thought out poll? I'm starting from seed in the spring. SPRING!!! That means you will be down a couple of months these mexican miniatures take a long time to grow you know, every second counts. I do have some new adult plants tho. As a matter of fact so have I. What did you pick up for the your collection Teotz? Would be keen to see pics, always keen to see cacti pics. I have recently picked up 3 new Ariocarpus spp. of varying ages, a small one, a quite old one and a very old one. Pics will end up in the Ariocarpus thread that I started when I get my camera happening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark80 Posted February 5, 2008 As a matter of fact so have I. What did you pick up for the your collection Teotz? Would be keen to see pics, always keen to see cacti pics. oh no. I am sick of seeing that same seirra blue and astrophytum and ariocarpus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 5, 2008 what exactly are you looking to find out, if i may ask? if these cacti get you high? sick? how long they take to grow. if you state your specific goal then maybe it will be easier to discuss the topic ;) If any of these cacti are truely psychoactive drugs. I am sick of seeing that same seirra blue and astrophytum and ariocarpus. Me and my lovely girlfriend of two years broke up, So I no longer have access to a camera. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonic Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) Just got another ario and put in some Ario seeds this morning, come on Teotz'. You're lagging behind now. Think you are going to have to set up a proper grow room as I have suggested to you before. I can't see how you hope to have decent results if you don't. Oh well not my problem. Edited February 6, 2008 by Phosphene_Dream Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 6, 2008 I still got like 70 years if I live to be 88... Chill out! I told you, this spring is when I'm ordering all my stuff! I don't have the money to build a freaking grow room! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted February 6, 2008 if the goal is simply to find out if they are "magical" you wont need to buy very expensive plants. you can pick up pretty old seed grown astros for like $20 from nurseries cause they are not good breeding quality...but for your questions, they will answer them just fine. dont want some fancy $900 cactus to try to eat lol. if you are interested in some cheaper species that are mature, pm me. if you are actually interested. i am mostly ito breeding, but have odds and sods around that are no good for breeding attempts so i can make you a deal Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted May 1, 2008 (edited) Germanitating Aztekium, Ariocarpus, Turbinicarpus, Strombocactus and many others! I also obtained some adult specimens of Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele (Note- The above is not mine) Edited May 1, 2008 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
