Minerals and Soil

[Teotzlcoatl]

How large of an effect do trace minerals and soil make-up have on entheogenic cacti's production of psychoactive chemicals, their growth and morphology?

This question is aimmed at psychoactive Trichocereus cacti, but may be applicable to many other species such as Lophophora.

Any ideas are welcome.

[incognito]

out of my dollar id put 98 cents on the genetics of ur material being the most important part of alc production, 1 cent on environmental conditions and 1 cent on alc accumulation through production to sway pests and diseases , with alkaloids accumulating with age. just my thoughts. though a mix of the 3 may be beneficial.

but yeah i wouldnt think minerals and soil to have much of effect?? id say im wrong and am interested to see how this convo pans out.

u have a great point!oh yeah lump minerals and soils into my environmental conditions, but i think ur chasin shadows if u dont have the right genetics to begin with??

i dont think u could influence a plant to produce more alks by anything u could put in the soil? genetically the plant must have a desire to?? wow good question

[Vertmorpheus]

As long as there's enough suitable nute around to sustain growth, without reaching excessive or toxic levels of anything, the plant should take care of the rest. But I suspect we're lookin at not so much how they make the goods, as how they hang onto em... in which case my standard advice to just about anyone growing anything is make sure you keep up the "crunchies"... calcium, magnesium, iron, potassium, silicon... keep cell walls strong and tough, don't rely on fast sappy growth from soluble ferts in excess, and I find just about any warm climate plants produce a better "product" all round by being kept on the "lean and mean" side of things, rather than boofed up and bright green but fulla bug holes and watershoots. I've also found that a lot of cacs n succs shit emselves and start going haywire if they get greywatered...whether its the borates,chlorates or phosphates I'm not sure, maybe just a straight pH issue. Actually thinking about it most cacs n sucs are happier with rainwater than tapwater, so maybe they aren't so big on chlorine... then theres the bridge pupping theory of rainfall etc. Whole other topic there.

Of course, when it comes to production, I think the real question would be... is a happier, tougher cactus going to slacken its al production as it "knows" it's already pretty hardy... and would a sappy fast grown one try n alk up as fast as possible to protect itself? And would any micropercentile gain in yield really make much of a difference, maybe if you want more goodies just grow more plant? All a bit of a mystery. I don't graft, but I hear lophs tacked onto Peris etc take time for the profile to catch up with the actual dimensions. might be a pointer in there somewhere.

I've heard of people shooting em up with dopa etc, something about taht just strikes me as wrong but while you have something potted and in the privacy of your own home I guess what you poke each other with is between the pair of you And something else about increasing alk yields in grasses by lighting variations, following natural patterns of x amount of overcast and rain, x amount of sun, bla bla. Not sure if it'd help a cactus any though.

I guess you could run a bunch of long term tests with standard sized starter section of genetically identical material... but then itd hard to be really sure about any of it as they mightve varied alkwise to start with, and any overall increase or decrease might have happened anyway given various factors . Starts to get a bit chicken and egg-like.

My verdict would be that once conditions are within the "ideal" range you probably couldn't expect much more out of a lant than what it is naturally wired to do. Any method of getting a plant into that range would pay off, but anything else might just go to waste or be detrimental in the long term.

Keeping up a decent level of humic compounds might help in species where you can keep the media moist enough to keep it all chugging along nicely... the dryness needed for other types of cactus might not be the best way to keep a microherd alive. But in any case, plants often have everything they need around their toes, they just lack the means of putting it all to good use. There might be info around about preferred growing locations for traditional users, certain seasons they tended to harvest in, etc. I know traditionally some cultures harvested various trees and plants at certain lunar phases to take advantage of the shifting water levels, maybe cutting at the last quarter would up your overall %/weight.

Or try and track down soil data for the original regions they came from, see if theres any glaring shortages of element x, and fill the gaps... but having adapted for so long at living WITHOUT element x they might just poo their pants if they suddenly get a big steaming mug of it handed to them. Alternately, maybe the traditional growing area is short of element x and your usual potting blend isn't... in which case dropping levels of it to start with, or buffering its uptake somehow, might be helpful.

Then theres stressing, like people beating cherry trees with bits of chain, or shoving things thru woody herb stems, suddenly cutting their water regime right back, bla bla bla. Personally I try not to get all domestic with my plants, but you could always try filling yours full of nails and sending us the photos maybe partially skin em in an aseptic enclosure to simulate bug damage... maybe the key is in the scar process... I suspect we'd know more about this area if cactophiles were less... cactophilic!

good luck,

VM

Edited December 30, 2007 by Vertmorpheus

[mark80]

Alot ofthe enzyme needed to make alkloids have meatlic componets. So there essential part of a cactus "diet" just like they are in yours. As soil is concerened i would say how well it drains has the most effect on the morphology and growth. Higher drianing soils means less water which means different environment...

[Teotzlcoatl]

I know some cacti like Astrophytum, Aztekium and Lophophora grow better in soil that has gypsum or limestone added (which mimics their natural enviroment)...

The book "Peyote and other psychoactive Cacti" by Adam G. states that trace minerals in the soil are VERY important espeically to mescaline producing cacti, but then again that book is full of type-O's and some false information...so....I donno...

I do believe that mimicing cacti's natural habitats will result in better growth conditions, so I think it would be wise to add trace minerals when possible.

I'd like to add that I think it's very important to use purely organic fertilizer with psychoactive plants and anything you put into your body....

I was thinking of useing some of the following for my cacti-

Urine

Composted Tea leafs

Crushed Shells

Crushed Limestone

Gypsum

River Silt

I'm not so much concerned with having cacti which have a high potency as I am with having happy cacti that feel right at home in my basement or out on my porch.... I think some of them really believe they are in mexico Shh! Don't tell them!

There might be info around about preferred growing locations for traditional users, certain seasons they tended to harvest in, etc. I know traditionally some cultures harvested various trees and plants at certain lunar phases to take advantage of the shifting water levels, maybe cutting at the last quarter would up your overall %/weight.

Now that sort of thing I find very interesting...

Did you know Psycohtria leafs harvested in the morning have much more DMT than those leaves harvested in other parts of the day?

Alot ofthe enzyme needed to make alkloids have meatlic componets. So there essential part of a cactus "diet" just like they are in yours.

You may be on to something, there.

I suspect we'd know more about this area if cactophiles were less... cactophilic!

Bridgesii pupping due to rainfall??? Will you give me a link?

Edited December 30, 2007 by Teotz'

[Vertmorpheus]

The pupping thing is from the "what forms of bridgesii we have in the community" thread... I think... I don't think it's a "fact" as much as a strongly held suspicion.

I've heard that the limestone thing isn't done all that much anymore with some species, or as a standard approach to all species, as in many desert and arid areas the limestone etc has been dissolved thousands of years ago and is now present as carbonic acid in aquifiers, or something like that. Hazy on the details (just for a change). Dolomite is a lil different, there are few things around that really hate the stuff and its a great source of minerals even with applications gentle enough to not send your pH scuttling off the mark. Great shit in mixes with a high proportion of coco coir too.

Trace element mixes are handy things but I tend to use them at half the minimum rate of application... legend has it that they contain barely enough of some things to make a dif to most plants, and big bucketing amounts of things that actually make plants crook in the long run... they're a very "shotgun" technology. I keep it on the low side and rely on a good range of organic products, as well as blood n bone and deco granite etc to "trickle feed" a source of TE's and nutrient.If you underdose and see splotches or deformities etc from lacking a certain TE, you can always wait a lil bit and apply 3/4 etc... I find a lot of plants if you just dope em straight up with TE's , especially in excess, they just kind of freeze up and sit there, get frozen in between phases and generally start to act like they're planted in concrete for some reason. IME, anyway. Some permaculture books have good lists of ways to work out what TE's are lacking in your locale, such as browned looking sheep and alpacas meaning you're short on copper, etc. A brief look at your local produce store at what kind of mineral supplements sell the best can tell you a lot about your local dirt.... all the compost on earth isn't as nice as it should be, if it's profoundly lacking in this or that.

All the organic soil additives mentioned are lovely things, all in all I'd probably just chuck em all in with some tasty soil to make a nice potent compost rich material, and then mix it half n half or so with a more "normal" cactii mix, whatever you can get away with to round out your cactus' pantry without impeding drainage overly much. nature is a fairly clever old bag, and a well made compost will work a dozen times the magic of any single additive, no matter how timely its application. And having a good whack of it in your blend means you can always feed it more specific organic additives later, and your lil helper organisms will scurry around breaking em down and making them available really fast. Handy shit especially when using crushed shell, blood n bone, etc. My "standard" organic plant food, which the cacti n sucs get as well but at lower rates etc, has a solid and a liquid part...the solid is blood n bone with added potash granules, dolomite and compost/soil (very rich and well drained dark soil, chockers with OM and MO's and made with a few years worth of garden scraps, veggies, chook poo, straw, the odd dead creature, all kinds of lovely stuff).... all goes in the mix to start with, as inflight snacks... the liquids which go on usually every other watering are kelp emulsion, molasses, the odd dash of urine if something looks like it wants a little boost.I use rainwater where possible, at least for feeding cycles, or at least use tap water that has been well and truly blasted into its container so its super aerated and broken up. Most of my stuff grows just fine and I have few if any complaints about how tasty anything is

Other handy additives I sometimes use are kelp granules, fairly neutral wood ashes, the odd nugget of chook poo (an old lump the size of a thumb shared between a few 200mm pots hasn't burnt anything yet but does keep em happy), manure teas, eggshells and oystershells, dead things (dead things are great... dig a hole, insert a corpse and some compost, backfill, plant and water... lovely!), worm castings (I get em as they dribble out the holes in some of my pots) but if anything the soil I have been building up for a few years now is probably TOO good for most things, and has to be cut with boring dirt from somewhere else (poor me). People bitch about soil in pots but I find a decent fluffy mix can easily take at least a 1/10th by volume dose of good loose soil with no problems, just good things. Hard to beat dirt, it's clever stuff and can make up for a decent range of a greenthumbs shortcomings!

VM

[ThunderIdeal]

i can convey a couple of basic bio-dynamics principles which are probably meaningless here but the issue of harvesting time was raised. beware however, i think some or most of bio-dynamics is pure fantasy and i wouldn't encourage anybody to get into it heavily. some makes sense and some just doesn't, although proponents will swear by the 50 year old methods.

all facts should be verified first because i'm not passionate about this.

these are the three cycles that seem relevant to me.. full moon/new moon.... perigee/apogee.... and ascending/descending.

full moon/new moon occurs about 13 times a year. the others are probably more like 14, more anyway.

full moon is supposed to increase wetness, in general i think. faster growth, better germination, better growth in cuttings, more fungus attack, more animal activity. new moon is meant to slow a plant down (sap flow) but increase underground activity, not sure why.

perigee is when the moon is closest, it has the trappings of a full moon basically, especially when the two combine. i don't think you can identify this by eye you'd need some kind of chart (maybe a BD chart, except that it's full of other nonsense)

now imagine how leading up to summer, every day the sun rises higher in the sky. that's exactly what ascending moon is except two weeks, not two seasons. you can tell with repeat observations. BD claims this is the earth's monthly breath, descending is the inhalation. annually, cool season is the inhalation and daily it is sunset. the exhalations are sun rise, ascending moon and warm season. exhalation (ascending) is above-ground activity, sap flows up, foliage grows, seeds grow up. inhalation is below-ground activity so i guess this is the time when the roots receive the most sap (that might be relevant to the topic) so it's a good time time for cuttings to root. i guess while the sap is going down there is also lots in the trunk.

anyway you can look it all up, they have big lists of what to do at what time, i just think you need to decide for yourself if there's any logic behind it because this system is LITERALLY designed around spiritual principles.

edit: more to the topic, inhalation and new moon = best time for nutes and watering??

Edited December 30, 2007 by ThunderIdeal

[Teotzlcoatl]

I think this thread should be not only include discussion about useing trace minerals but also harvest times and other methods of increasing potency.

Thanks Everybody!

[Teotzlcoatl]

My plan for getting some good soil for my Cacti...

Cactus Soil-

Sifted and Washed Coarse Sand

Coarse Pumice

Coarse Perlite

Rich completely decomposed Loam

A small amount of Cactus fertilizer

Instructions- Once all the ingredients are mixed bake the soil at 500F for one hour.

Organic Cactus Fertilizer-

Composted Tea

Wood Ashes

Composted Leafs

Horse, Goat, Cow or Sheep Manure (Chicken shit is to high in nitrogen)

Gypsum (small amounts)

Bonemeal

Ground Hoof and Horn (small amounts)

Urine

Lake or River Silt

Crushed Quartz

Fish meal (small amounts)

Seaweed meal

Crushed Shells

Crushed Limestone (small amounts)

Cactus Clippings- skin, spines, etc.

Coarse River Sand

Coco Coir

Live Worms

Instructions- Allow all the material to compost in a container for 3-7 months.

Notes- Study what trace elements and minerals exist in each species habitats and add them accordingly.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Teotz'

[mark80]

I spew some garbage sometimes,

Edited January 7, 2008 by mark80

[Teotzlcoatl]

Haha, no...

I guess your right about the pumice, but I think I'll leave the river sand, I'm sure it contains plenty of trace minerals.

I'm adding worms and letting it compost, because things like manure, tea and urine need to compost... worms are supposed to be good for the soil and will speed up the composting process.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Teotz'

[Vertmorpheus]

I'm a bit prone to that myself, using 10 units of this and 10 units of that, that are both more or less the "same" thing, rather than 20 units of just one on their own... I find plants and people both respond to the most varied diet you can possibly give them, helps to play the numbers and averages game sometimes. And cuts by half the chance of one particular additive or component causing trouble later on...well, sometimes.

Just remember the good folk of Pompeii when you handle the pumice I found a hand tied knot of coco string in a brick of sri lankan coco fibre about two days after the tsunami, really brought home that theres a good chance the bloke that bundled that peat is fish food now... small world innit.

Organics are great, for any really grumpy store bought specimens I tend to hit em quickly before a repot with a 50 percent of ROA mix of rainwater and Peters Professional Bloom Booster plus TE's, works wonders esp with a little kelp on board too... not something I make a habit of with my own stuff but some poor plant from Bunnings has been eating nothing but thrive or a cheaper scabbier equivalent for months anyway, I find it just plugs the gaps and puts em on a better footing for developing some REAL taste in nutes

VM

[Teotzlcoatl]

Does anybody know any good sources for organic fertilizers?

[Vertmorpheus]

Anything you can get here that gets used a lot probably won't be sold by the same names over there anyway, and I assume you mean brands rather than basic ingredients. In which case all I can tell you is I tried a Debco prilled CRF called "seaOrganic" and its shit. Rubbish. I have had less burning on my worst week with just about fresh chook shit than I have with that stuff, which must get 90 percent of its N from some fast and nasty source... horrible salty crap that dumped its whole salt load in a few days with enough of a heft to knock around established plants in coco based mixes plus compost, and three years later is still turning up in my beds, pots, bedsheets as these invincible plastic green balls that refuse to break down any further.

Maybe I just got a bad batch, but I was gruuummpppyy as hell about it. Yay, thought I, I just halved the amount of stuffing about I do with compost and dead animals and things collected from the kitchen sink... I felt like the biggest bastard on earth and my plants were saying terrible things about me for weeks.

Anyway, theyre a shinied up enough brand to maybe surface over there.. approach with caution.

Also remember a lot of ready sources of organics (poo from feedlots and small farms, chicken manure and guanos, commercially sourced foods etc) can all be worryingly high in various nasty things, heavy metals and whatnot... not as nice as they seem. Weeds wont even grow in half the cow n horse poo I get hold of, let alone mushrooms, those animals get an almost astronaut style diet these days.. always aim to source from large cruisy properties where people love animals enough to keep em healthy but don't balk at letting them bumble around eating plants etc. Even entirely pasture fed animals on the same lot over the years will progressively worsen the available nutes in some ways, esp in terms of salts and metals.

A lot of kelp mixes too are just about useless, I cant tell you the brand I use as its about 5 years since I bought any, I got am assive tub and split it up But some are overcooked, not bad for TE but useless for any kind of "hormone" reasons. Fish emulsions etc can vary, some are once again high in heavy metals and low on friendliness but they're "organic" enough for most.

VM

woops... found this a while ago.. not sure how bang on the numbers are but most things I have used seem pretty close to it... availability to the plant of course will differ.

http://www.helpfulgardener.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=924

Edited January 4, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[Teotzlcoatl]

Vertmorpheus you are full of information.

Thanks for all your help!

I was really just wondering if anybody knew about any vendors that sold things like gypsum, limestone and ground hoof/horn.

I plan on making my own fish meal and the shit that I get is the good shit! From animals on my aunts small-scale country farm.

The crushed shells come from the shores of the lake.

The urine is my own.

It all seems pretty organic to me.

Better than growing inorganically, I suppose...

Edited January 4, 2008 by Teotz'

[Conan Troutman]

Haha, no...

I guess your right about the pumice, but I think I'll leave the river sand, I'm sure it contains plenty of trace minerals.

I'm adding worms and letting it compost, because things like manure, tea and urine need to compost... worms are supposed to be good for the soil and will speed up the composting process.

you compost your urine??, get some urea hey? (oh your in the US that would make u a terrorist threat prolly)

I think its best just sprayed straight on (so to speak)

[Teotzlcoatl]

No...

I tried that.

I think it needs composting.

[mark80]

No...

I tried that.

I think it needs composting.

I think it needs diluting.

[Conan Troutman]

I think it needs diluting.

yes then spraying, tho brugs will take a golden shower

[Teotzlcoatl]

I guess diluting could work.

But why not compost some of it too? I've got plenty...

Edited January 4, 2008 by Teotz'

[Gunter]

I think trace elements are vital co-factors for various enzymes, some of which are involved in alkaloid biosynthesis and can thus constitute a limiting factor for such in-vivo synth.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I think you just said that plants with trace minerals make more happy chemicals...

Am I right?

[mark80]

I think you just said that plants with trace minerals make more happy chemicals...

Am I right?

Just like your body plants don't "work" with out the various elemnts needed to do its job, its really very simply. Alkloid synthises is part of a healthy metabolic sound plant. If you don't get vitamin b12 you get brain damage, without iron you don't carry enough oxygen in your blood and your unhleathy.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Exactly.