Looking for a good open-minded doctor

[No_One]

yes the first time i experienced the symptoms were the night after the dxm mdma combo (yep the night that was blank - btw, at one point in the night my friend noticed i was having some kind of fit, i spilt a full beer all over myself (not like me at all) and my foot kept banging the floor, he said it looked like i was trying to get up and that i looked completely vacant). I've never had any symptoms even close to this. and since then (2 months ago) they have happened another four times

Coschi, have a couple of questions for ya:

1)Was this the first time this guy had ever taken DXM (or any other dissociatives)?

2)Does he remember what he was thinking about/what his attention was focused on when the first panic attack came on?

Stay strong Brother!

Peace

[Coschi]

Yep first time for DXM (and likewise the first dissociative he's tried)

There was nothing really that stands out as a trigger for the first one. We'd taken 2ce (the following night from the dxm + mdma) on a full stomach and when it started i felt a pretty unusual feeling in my body; having read 2ce gives "a profound feeling of general discomfort" (quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-E) i didn't think too much about it. It wasn't until i smoked a joint (this wasnt the first joint of the night, but i was already pretty stoned and this one might have tipped me over an edge) till the panic attack started

[No_One]

Yep first time for DXM (and likewise the first dissociative he's tried)

There was nothing really that stands out as a trigger for the first one. We'd taken 2ce (the following night from the dxm + mdma) on a full stomach and when it started i felt a pretty unusual feeling in my body; having read 2ce gives "a profound feeling of general discomfort" (quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-E) i didn't think too much about it. It wasn't until i smoked a joint (this wasnt the first joint of the night, but i was already pretty stoned and this one might have tipped me over an edge) till the panic attack started

There's a survival-technique called estivation which is triggered by stimulation of NMDA receptors, certain animals throw themselves into this state if their environment demands/suggests they do so. By taking dissociatives this is what your mimicking i.e. they let you experience reality/see the world through the eyes of someone/something estivating, you're mate has induced this state of consciousness when he's taken the DXM.

If, prior to taking the DXM, your mate had developed a mind-set/attitude where he saw himself as unbreakable ir thought he knew everything and is always in control then inducing estivation/stepping into unknown territory would certaintly have shattered his delusions and given him every reason to panic.

The way I see it, to get over this experience, your mate has two options, go back and make friends with what made him panic (get used to the state/learn to love experiencing reality this way) or admit he's met his match and concede (from what you've told me about your mate I think the fact that he feels beaten could be what's making him panic when he gets stoned/introspective also).

If I was your mate I'd try and make friends, I'd acknowledge the demons the DXM held infront my face to induce the panic and work out what they were trying to teach me about my ways.

The answer I reckon I'd reach would be that I thought I could handle anything drugs through at me but I'd left a whole category of drugs out of my calculations and I've been humbled. I'd probably then go back to the drawing board and have a good hard look/go over my working out i.e. attitude toward drugs and make sure when I put a new one together I factored in the new information/experience I attained.

I know if I denied the experience and didn't get to the bottom of it I would always be wondering/worrying about it and I couldn't handle that.

A man is not a camel dude, oppinions are like assholes and the power of the mind can beat anything.

Hope your doing well.

Peace

[mu!]

nup, i disagree with that Shiva. i've seen enough to suggest that its just drugs fuckin with his brain, plain and simple. No point tryin to be a hero and find the "i overcome it with the power of my mind" angle on the situation; in the end if you're fucked, you're fucked. No two ways about it. But there's a way to help prevent it.

[Monk]

I'm with mu on this one. Take it easy.

[Amulte]

Its a very interesting perspective Shiva, i was wondering if the spiritualism vs science discussion would come up.

while i do hold both science and spiritualism highly in my life, in this situation i am inclined to go with science.

If the situation involved Ayahuasca or another tryptamine id go with spiritualism only after ruling out potential medical/scientific responses/actions.

from my experience with DXM and from what ive read its pretty ineffective as an entheogen and more recreational than anything else, tho my experince with it is pretty limited, i havnt seen much evidence to suggest DXM has spiritual

the action of the substances and the combination involved suggest too many potential medical concerns in the response. honestly i would not rush out and try that combination again, but after giving the brain at least 6 months to repair and rewire then it might be considerable but it appears to be the combination itself that caused the reaction and subsequencial side effects, so id advise its best avoided.

[apothecary]

Shiva, nobody is saying never take DXM again ever.

We are pointing out that the current state of mind is induced by heavy drug use, and that if a return is planned to the land of gnomes, then stopping to lick wounds and recoup probably is a useful piece of advice!

But hey, let me point out, Coschi is free to do as he pleases, nobody here is forcing him to do anything, merely providing an opinion which was requested.

[No_One]

nup, i disagree with that Shiva. i've seen enough to suggest that its just drugs fuckin with his brain, plain and simple. No point tryin to be a hero and find the "i overcome it with the power of my mind" angle on the situation; in the end if you're fucked, you're fucked. No two ways about it. But there's a way to help prevent it.

Running the info Coschi's given through my theories I'd say it's more a case of drugs fuckin' with a part of his brain, a part of his brain that hasn't been fucked with before. Fuckin with this his induced an experience that has rattled him - when you fall off a horse what do YOU do?

Its a very interesting perspective Shiva, i was wondering if the spiritualism vs science discussion would come up.

while i do hold both science and spiritualism highly in my life, in this situation i am inclined to go with science.

If the situation involved Ayahuasca or another tryptamine id go with spiritualism only after ruling out potential medical/scientific responses/actions.

from my experience with DXM and from what ive read its pretty ineffective as an entheogen and more recreational than anything else, tho my experince with it is pretty limited, i havnt seen much evidence to suggest DXM has spiritual

I'm not taking a solely spiritual standpoint here, to me spirituality, shamanism, science, etc. are all languages used to talk about the same thing and I have taken parts from all of them to formulate my mind-set/philosophy.

Shiva, nobody is saying never take DXM again ever.

We are pointing out that the current state of mind is induced by heavy drug use, and that if a return is planned to the land of gnomes, then stopping to lick wounds and recoup probably is a useful piece of advice!

But hey, let me point out, Coschi is free to do as he pleases, nobody here is forcing him to do anything, merely providing an opinion which was requested.

I agree, he's given his body a touch-up but anxiety/panic can be overcome with mind power - something he was cool with prior to the DXM now worries him/makes him anxious, he's found another angle to view shit from and needs to work his experience/what he saw into the mind-set/philosophy he had prior to the DXM i.e. when he wasn't plagued by panic attacks.

The longer he sits round licking wounds the more time he has to spend away from what blows his hair back, lives have been ruined and much time has been wasted from PTSD, the quicker he gets over it/deals with the better.

Without getting too into it the bottom line is drugs are poisons that by traumatising the body have the abilty to alter your perception and show the observor more or less of what's "out there", why do they do this? - to aid in its survival.

I spoke of estivation, it takes harsh stimulus/environment/lots of trauma for someone/something to throw itself into estivation naturally i.e. without drugs, by taking drugs your tricking the observor into thinking that the body it is housed in is being exposed to some form of harsh stimulus/environment/lots of trauma, if you've never had to deal with this sort of trauma naturally it wouldn't be a factor in your model of reality/mindset i.e. you'd be ignorant of what the body does when it is exposed to harsh stimulus/environment/lots of trauma - once you've experienced it you either have the ability to deal with it or you don't, to me Coshi's looking for a way to make sense of what he experienced, put simply what he experienced was the way the observor percieves when the body it is housed in is subjected to harsh stimulus/environment/lots of trauma, it's how you see when the bodies natural anasthetic kicks in.

Peace

[chilli]

Ooh, you're lucky Coschi! Shiva is choosing you as his disciple.

I was not good enough to learn of his ways.

Just be warned that with regards to Shiva's advice, he also seems to think schizophrenia is just a form of creative expression.

On a serious note though... Shiv, I liked your idea about plants evolving because they show us 'more of what's out there.' Spun out.

Oh, and if drugs are leading you to psychosis, it's time to stop those drugs.

[Torsten]

there is one good thing about getting anxiety from drugs: you very quickly lose interest in them. sadly it takes a little while, so that most don't actually usually stop until the anxiety has taken hold and will take a few years or more to cure. Smarter folks might learn from the experiences of others and stop a little earlier and thus save themselves a whole lot of misery.

As for mind vs science, I think it is both to some degree as both form a common feedback cycle. For some it will be easier to manipulate the pharmacological aspect of this cycle for others it will be easier to manipulate lifestyle or learn mind excercises to achieve better control. Ultimately most will do a bit of both whether they are aware of it or not. Simply by actively avoiding stress you already modify your lifestyle dramatically for example. Or by avoiding caffeine you modify the pharmacology. These are often the first two steps that anxious people take to get better control and they represent one of each of the mind vs science perspectives.

[chilli]

there is one good thing about getting anxiety from drugs: you very quickly lose interest in them. sadly it takes a little while, so that most don't actually usually stop until the anxiety has taken hold and will take a few years or more to cure. Smarter folks might learn from the experiences of others and stop a little earlier and thus save themselves a whole lot of misery.

As for mind vs science, I think it is both to some degree as both form a common feedback cycle. For some it will be easier to manipulate the pharmacological aspect of this cycle for others it will be easier to manipulate lifestyle or learn mind excercises to achieve better control. Ultimately most will do a bit of both whether they are aware of it or not. Simply by actively avoiding stress you already modify your lifestyle dramatically for example. Or by avoiding caffeine you modify the pharmacology. These are often the first two steps that anxious people take to get better control and they represent one of each of the mind vs science perspectives.

I have to basically whole-heartedly agree with everything he just said.

[ajna]

i have the tendency to see and attack things from the same side as shiva, however i wasn't going to suggest someone else do so in case they don't see it the same way. i feel when someone has a stronger belief in a particular layer of their being over the others then that layer becomes dominant, ie a homeopathic remedy might not be the best solution for someone like Tortsen

attacking from both ends is definitely the best option, but that doesn't mean quit coffee and get back on the 'tussin bus. these substances have the tendency to teach us what we need to be taught, and the lesson here may quite simply have been 'stop abusing your body and have some respect for these substances'. i agree with the 'get back on the horse' philosophy however that doesn't always mean get back in to hyperspace asap; 'the path' involves spending a lot of time on this plane for integration and without that the journies to hyperspace are meaningless and at worst destructive. this might have been the lesson needed to help Coshi make that discovery, and if he hasn't followed the lesson when he returns i'd be worried it would be re-enforced and have more destructive consequences.

[Ace]

Hey Sphinx, any updates on your mate's mental/physical recovery? Any idea if s/he has been keeping clean, or if they are still trying to ride the horse? If they are still riding, how are they coping? Any more paranoia/freakouts? Hope all is well and that they have been taking it easy

[Fenris]

I have an idea of where Coschi is coming from after a traumatic incident that happened to me about 4 years ago. Anyhow things are much better these days but this isn't the point of my post.

I believe that drugs that last a long time give you the space to have an anxiety attack or whatever you choose to call it, I think of it as a temporary loss of sanity coupled with vertigo which felt more like premature death than anxiety.

Anyhow drugs that acted over a very short time interval, say 10 minutes or so, regardless of how full on they were never elicited the same anxiety response. From go to woe the mind hadn't had time to start up the response.

Aya helped me a lot to finally put it all behind me but thats a different story.

Don't bake your noodle too much and remember everything in moderation including moderation.

[Osprey]

Stop taking all drugs for at least 6 weeks.

be prepared for a rocky road.

i agree with jono.

break the cycle.

it doesn't seem to be doing it for you any more.

[nitrogen]

Hi there Coschi,

I can't say for sure I understand your situation but it does sound like a case of too much time spent in deeply psychedelic states and generally just drugged without enough time spent getting comfortable "at home" in the baseline state..

It sounds like you're way out of balance and have lost your "center", your grounding...

I once took 6 months off all chemicals, natural and synthetic psychedelics, coffee, chocolate, everything - was one of the best things I ever did for myself...

I think if you take the following recommendations you will be a new man:

1. Cease ALL substances for at least 2 months (alcohol, psychedelics, caffeine, definately no caffeine!) - allow your biochemistry to achieve equilibrium - that's what it would LOVE to do right now I'm fairly certain...

2. Get daily excercise - yoga, running, something that gets your heart pumping - clear away all the stagnant body tension/energy

3. Sit quietly in reflection or meditation each day, for however long feels right - these times can become wonderful and like mini-trips into spacious openness

4. Make a move toward cutting out crappy food and eat lots of fresh fruit, whole grains, veggies, non-processed hormone free meat etc...

Excercise is SO important in terms of really feeling good - I have had anxiety issues myself, and they creep back in if I don't get exercise regularly...

Learning to meditate creates space and openness in the mind, *equanimity* - just make a point to sit quietly each day with your eyes closed - first thing in the morning and before bed are great times, focus on being present with your breathing or your body sensations...

It sounds like what you're going through is a great lesson in learning about balance, living well - I've had to learn/am still learning these lessons - it's good you feel comfortable sharing honestly what you're going through too - talking to others takes the power out of painful issues IMO...

Edited November 14, 2007 by nitrogen

[chilli]

Hi there Coschi,

I can't say for sure I understand your situation but it does sound like a case of too much time spent in deeply psychedelic states and generally just drugged without enough time spent getting comfortable "at home" in the baseline state..

It sounds like you're way out of balance and have lost your "center", your grounding...

I once took 6 months off all chemicals, natural and synthetic psychedelics, coffee, chocolate, everything - was one of the best things I ever did for myself...

I think if you take the following recommendations you will be a new man:

1. Cease ALL substances for at least 2 months (alcohol, psychedelics, caffeine, definately no caffeine!) - allow your biochemistry to achieve equilibrium - that's what it would LOVE to do right now I'm fairly certain...

2. Get daily excercise - yoga, running, something that gets your heart pumping - clear away all the stagnant body tension/energy

3. Sit quietly in reflection or meditation each day, for however long feels right - these times can become wonderful and like mini-trips into spacious openness

4. Make a move toward cutting out crappy food and eat lots of fresh fruit, whole grains, veggies, non-processed hormone free meat etc...

Excercise is SO important in terms of really feeling good - I have had anxiety issues myself, and they creep back in if I don't get exercise regularly...

Learning to meditate creates space and openness in the mind, *equanimity* - just make a point to sit quietly each day with your eyes closed - first thing in the morning and before bed are great times, focus on being present with your breathing or your body sensations...

It sounds like what you're going through is a great lesson in learning about balance, living well - I've had to learn/am still learning these lessons - it's good you feel comfortable sharing honestly what you're going through too - talking to others takes the power out of painful issues IMO...

Yep, what he said.

Unless you are going to die next month, in which case you may as well go hard out, or maybe you would actually want to do the detox thing in that case.

The trouble is not knowing when you're going to die.

[Coschi]

Hey, well

they most definitely have backed off (first person from now on)

torston said 'there is one good thing about getting anxiety from drugs: you very quickly lose interest in them', this is most definitely the case, but for more reasons than the ill-response i've been getting lately. When i first started really exploring the psychedelic region with clear intent (which was to search, explore, etc.. not just 'trip out'), i was having some fascinating experiences, i'd think about them for weeks and eagerly look forward to my next such journey. Everytime i entered the realms i felt excited, and mentally stimulated (ie, i was thinking a lot about this stuff, not stimulation via substance), and usually had an afterglow from these experiences that would sometimes last weeks (mushrooms and dmt especially).

That was at the start, however in the last year i seemed to have lost all that special'ness (well, most). After a trip i'd feel a little empty, a little confused, and a little further from my intended path (i guess i could say 'hoped for' path, if i truly had intent that i would have employed a little more common sense along the way, not to say that i didn't, but my addictive personality tends to result in me doing things until it's obvious why i shouldn't; sometimes even health isn't a good enough reason). This went on for quite sometime and as you could guess, towards the end i was feeling quite empty and lost in the whole thing.

Anyway, after some recent thought i think i've realised a few things. Like these are mind opening/expanding/exploring substances, but that's just it, it's my mind that i'm entering, and possibly connecting with other (sub)consciousness across a multidimensional field. Taking these things isn't giving me anything other than a new set of eyes to see myself and my world in; over-indulgence seemed to have left me not knowing where i really sit anymore. The best part of infrequent use is you do get the chance to walk away and reflect, look at yourself and see what needs to change, think about it some more, employ what you choose to and etc... perhaps someday you will take another look, but like many have said it's not a race

These are all most definitely not bad things, but people can use them in not-so-good ways as i did. Just because you have access to these things doesn't mean you should become jobless and take up to 1mg of acid every week lol i haven't worked in three months, my position because redundant three months ago and with a nice payout and summer coming up (plus the whole school-uni-job thing meaning the last significant break i had was when i was 4) i thought what the hell and..

but anyway, the time has come for me to open my eyes a little in the real world, i need to start thinking about my future (spending four years in engineering and achieving nothing other than plenty of debt and plenty of fun, it's time for a change and i'm done with office work). I am working on a career change now moving into the self-employed world, and it feels really refreshing to have a strong desire to do something for myself that isn't based around substance abuse (by the way, as much as i like to think i don't abuse these things, and i do them all with good intent.. who am i kidding). Plus, i'm not out of shape but i could most definitely afford to get more fit, and live a healthier lifestyle, which is what i'm going to do.

This doesn't mean either that i'm well and truly done with my explorations, but they have ceased until i feel like it's the right thing to do. I have passed the stage of want and indeed at that time (even just a month ago) it was very hard to see myself not doing all what i do, but recently the desire has left and i've been in a clear mind to see how what i was doing was wrong for me. Someday i hope to see my friends again (the psychedelic ones), but for now this is about me and my future while i still have one. I am most certainly not turning my back on the whole thing though, i will most definitely still be growing and loving my plants and cacti, hehehe those little shrooms also, and looking further and further into the chemistry of acacias and others, but as mentioned this is my time for clarity and i have no need to take these substances.

the most important thing for me has been to disconnect from the tryptamines (lsd, shrooms, dmt)

for the moment, i still drink and indulge in the occassional sweet molly

i'm sure though as i make these changes bit by bit in my life, my eating and exercising habits will get better and better and i'll ultimately be seeing much less of molly and alcohol, but all in good time

no anxiety whatsoever from molly or alcohol by the way

none of you know me well enough, but if you did you'd understand that when i make such a decision (actually no decision was made, i just feel things have changed in me), it is real and it does stick

Cheers!

Edited November 16, 2007 by Coschi

[Monk]

Coschi, it may sound strange as I don't know you personally and am on the other side of the earth, but reading this and knowing that you mean it has made me feel so relieved and happy for you as well. If you can hold on to the mindfulness that you have right now you will always be all right. As I mentioned before, I have been in a very similar situation in my life and came to many of the same conclusions that you just posted. However, for the last few years I walked a different path (having nothing to do with substance use) that was potentially more dangerous to my body and mind. In the midst of learning about life on this other path, much like yourself, I lost track of my original goals and was living for the thrills. Very recently, I decided to stop following the warriors path (for me it was boxing) in order to gain perspective. It has been the best thing I have done for my mind and body in quite some time. As you can see, keeping mindfulness of the path you are on is easier said than done and I commend you for your decision. You have seen things, felt things, and known things that most humans will never be aware of. Now is the time to enjoy integrating them in to the 'everyday' world with both feet on the ground. I wish you so much more than luck, but don't know what to call it

FM

[nitrogen]

Wow man, sounds like quite some clarity there!

You know, back several years ago I was dealing with something quite similar, and it was actually Ringworm from over at Spiritplants who suggested that if I felt psychedelics were so great, but using them wasn't making me any less miserable, that I should take a year off from them and see how I feel - at first I totally rejected the idea but after awhile, after I had become even more hopeless feeling, I said "why not" and went for it - I took the year of psychedelics (and 6 months off everything else) and man it was just amazing - my whole personality came back to life, like becoming a little kid again...

[Amulte]

Coschi, it may sound strange as I don't know you personally and am on the other side of the earth, but reading this and knowing that you mean it has made me feel so relieved and happy for you as well. If you can hold on to the mindfulness that you have right now you will always be all right. As I mentioned before, I have been in a very similar situation in my life and came to many of the same conclusions that you just posted. However, for the last few years I walked a different path (having nothing to do with substance use) that was potentially more dangerous to my body and mind. In the midst of learning about life on this other path, much like yourself, I lost track of my original goals and was living for the thrills. Very recently, I decided to stop following the warriors path (for me it was boxing) in order to gain perspective. It has been the best thing I have done for my mind and body in quite some time. As you can see, keeping mindfulness of the path you are on is easier said than done and I commend you for your decision. You have seen things, felt things, and known things that most humans will never be aware of. Now is the time to enjoy integrating them in to the 'everyday' world with both feet on the ground. I wish you so much more than luck, but don't know what to call it

FM

well said, here here

[Ace]

Fantastic to hear Coschi, glad to see that these substances (or lack thereof) have opened your (foaf's) eyes, possibly further than ever before. I think it is true that these things have the ability to open one's mind and make life that little bit more beautiful, but it seems that the best of them is gained when not using them. Such amazing complexity bound within such small molecules - as demonstrated by your overcoming of abuse leading to the path of enlightenment.

[Torsten]

I like the clarity in your post coschi. You're going to be just fine I think.