"Peregrina" #3 ....

[mauve]

I have this very little tree i germinated one year ago from Maya ethnobotanicals,

the seeds were supposedely Anadenanthera peregrina #3. Different people agreed that

the seeds had some differences in effects compared to other seeds (Colubrina) and the tree itself shows

some differences with Colubrina in growing pattern.

I know that some of you had the opportunity to grow this tree too in Australia before it became illegal to import

the seeds and i know the controversy about the "Peregrina on the market that aren't Peregrina".

Some years passed now and i wanted to have some feedback on how your trees grew, how they look and responded to

your growing conditions. Is the #3Peregrina" able to survive the winter ? it would be a good indication about the real identity.

Since i have only one tree i am not eager to try myself

Edited August 21, 2007 by mauve

[planthelper]

this site says she is not frost hardy

http://www.utopiasprings.com/anad.htm

but this one say's it is

http://www.utopiasprings.com/anad.htm

our site say's aswell frost tender, so don't risk it!

http://shaman-australis.com.au/shop/index.php?cPath=21_26_53

[Mycot]

I know someone who supposedy has a very mature peregrina who suffers much milder climate than yourself (Sub-trop NSW) that has never produced seeds. While tryptamines may possibly be found in usable amounts in other parts of the plant, the species may possibly not produce seed in colder climes.

Then again what you have may possibly be not A. peregrina so the above may not apply.

[apothecary]

Are you referring to Recher Mycot?

[Mycot]

Yeah, that's one tree that I was told was peregrina.

[apothecary]

I think there is now some skepticism on the correctness of that identification.

I emailed him once when I was a little less informed on the subject asking him for a cutting (after visiting his garden), and he said he would send one rooted.

This should have set off flags immediately, I doubt it is a peregrina if you can take cuts.

[apothecary]

Oh and incidentally, he never sent the cutting

[Andrew]

Recher,lol,he still owes me seeds from 5-6 years ago.He probably wont send them either

as I e-mailed him and told him what I thought of him.What a wanker.

[Mycot]

It may be difficult but possible to successfully propagate from cuttings.

Without samples though whether it is even an Anadenanthera species is open to question.

[Torsten]

I suspect it is A.colubrina. The problem si that he sourced his seed around the time colubrina first hit the market. Colubrina is a popular street tree in brazil, so a lot of Anandenanthera seed originating in brazil is labelled as peregrina but is in fact colubrina. I even got a batch of seed certified as peregrina by the brazil agriculture department and they turned out to be colubrina.

That's not to say there isn't any peregrina, but between 1996 and 2005 all Anandenanthera seed I sourced turned out to be peregrina, except one which was labelled colubrina but was actually peregrina [it died in the first winter which is what alerted me to the fact].

[t st tantra]

i've noticed that cebil forms new segments each year,with a thickened joining point.

the thought presented that this may allow propagation by cutting.

have a look, what do you think?

dieback on one plant left segments,still green, that may [have] rooted in nature.

it is sometimes claimed acacias may propagate from cuttings.

t s t .

[planthelper]

probagating this plant by cuttings, if possible seems a very good idea to me as i have observed that some individuals produce lot's of fruits whilst others never even flower.

i will try to take some cuttings and come back to you with my results.

if cuttings fail or the strike rate is very low, one could even consider grafting a mass flowering individual onto some chance seedlings. i got 7 trees in my garden, and 3 of them had fruits when i returned home from beeing away for quite a while.

at this very moment only one tree is flowering, so maybe rechers trees, regardless of there exact id, are in fact two individuals which are failing to produce flowers.

that some seedgrown trees of any type never flower is well know, after all thats why most fruit trees are grafted.

i have seen seedgrown citrus and avocado trees, and seem to remeber that, they either flower after a certain age, or that they will stay barren forever. maybe it's similar with cebil and yopo.

[baphomet]

between 1996 and 2005 all Anandenanthera seed I sourced turned out to be peregrina, except one which was labelled colubrina but was actually peregrina [it died in the first winter which is what alerted me to the fact].

I used to learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and I once met a guy who is originally from San Paulo who said he can give me genuine seeds from many interesting plants including genuine Peregrina and Virola seeds. My question is though.. will they live in Melbourne, even in a greenhouse?

[apothecary]

Probably not. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try and get some here for the rest of us

I doubt your friend will have much luck at finding the correct plant but it never hurts to try.

[Torsten]

just keep in mind the seed is a prohibited drug import.

[baphomet]

EDIT: After reading torstens post I have decided to scrap the idea, but from what I could gather he already had them, kind of hard to understand him though. I wouldn't have them sent over after hearing what happened to torsten & gom, not worth the trouble.

I have no reason to doubt him regarding their authenticity, he sounds like he knows what hes talking about (all though I don't blame the rest of you for being skeptical), I just don't know if it would be worth trying to grow seeds that will probably never become established anyway, I mean these are fairly large trees were talking about right? Even if they survive to a certain age in a greenhouse I doubt I have the space or the right climate to raise them to maturity so I'm thinking probably wouldn't even have been worth my time anyway? (Assuming they were legal to grow)

Edited June 22, 2008 by baphomet

[planthelper]

sure they are legal to grow.

peregrina, i guess in more frost tender than columbrina.

i would try to grow this plant even in antartica, if i would have no other choice, once it get's too big you can allways donate it to a botanical garden, or a fellow sab member.

they can go dormant over winter so keep them dry over this periode, a dry periode aswell will help fruit setting.

you can always prune a plant which gets too big for a glashouse, but leave some older sideshoots as they will bear the seeds.

[baphomet]

sure they are legal to grow.

peregrina, i guess in more frost tender than columbrina, once it get's too big you can allways donate it to a botanical garden, or a fellow sab member.

Thanks, I'm sure a few people would be putting up their hands for that.

[Torsten]

OK, I need to clarify a few things it seems:

1) Anadenanthera seeds are illegal to import. Possession may be legal in some states and illegal in others [ACT, SA, etc]. Growing the plants is also illegal in ACT.

2) Peregrina does not go dormant. It is a true tropical tree. If it gets cold it dies. The ability to go dormant appears to be the best way to tell peregrina from colubrina as peregrina will always die at exactly the same point colubrina goes dormant.

3) I think it is safe to assume that most sources in Brazil have no idea that their supposed peregrina is indeed colubrina. That would also apply to a hobby botanist/gardener like your friend. Even the Brazil dept of agriculture wrongly certifies colubrina seeds are peregrina. I think in the case of this species and as a result of years of experience at all levels of research and trade, it is safe to start from the assumption that the seed is wrongly identified until proven otherwise!!

4) I think the best option for obtaining true peregrina seeds is from Venezuela. It appears colubrina is not present there either as ornamental nor native.

5) ALL of Maya's supposed peregrina seed that did not look exactly like one would expect [ie identical to colubrina - thin, dark, about 6-18mm diameter with papery coat] turned out to be NOT peregrina. Some of the plants turned out to be Parapiptadenia, Leucaena, and unidentified. Let me repeat that NONE of the hard coated seeds sold as peregrina by Maya turned out to be the real thing.

[planthelper]

2) Peregrina does not go dormant. It is a true tropical tree. If it gets cold it dies.

and if it doesn't get enough water, it will stopp growing and go dormant.

[Torsten]

and if it doesn't get enough water, it will stopp growing and go dormant.

Not really. It will just shed its leaves to adjust to water availability. Most tropical plants do this. It's not the same as dormancy though as the metabolism of the plant doesn't actually slow down [in reference to it's leaf area], leaves will regrow within a few days of water availability, and the plant never actually induced leaf senescence and hence did not recover the nutrients in the dying leaves.

Colubrina can do both. It can drop all [or some of] its leaves in response to lack of water, but it also goes into a proper dormancy in winter.

btw, I don't think there are any peregrina plants in australia. The most likely candidate is Recher's plant, but I doubt it. Certainly all those other plants that were at times offered for trade turned out to be colubrina. The only seed source I am not quite sure about is telemetric's seed as I never got to grow this. After years of chasing this species I am very doubtful - especially now that wrongly identified seed from overseas has found its way into every collection.

[mauve]

Torsten, how do you manage to tell apart Colubrina from Peregrina ? These are very similar trees, after reading on this subject for years i am still confused on wich tree has the rough bark (it could be due to growing parameters), etc...

I am just sure of one thing, based on herbariums and the Torres and Repke book: Peregrina has a "sandy" texture on the pod

Another interesting point is the fact that the alkaloidal profile change from year to year on the same tree (depending of what conditions i don't know), it has been observed by Schultes on a group of Peregrina trees (i think it was in Porto Rico), only DMT one year then it started to produce more bufotenine.

Nobody has a friend from Venezuela ?

Edited July 4, 2008 by mauve

[t st tantra]

i wonder if anyone can tell the difference?

there is a lot of variation ,even on the one plant , a branch or pod can look different than others.

seems if it dies it could have been perigrina,if it lives its prob colubrina!lol

i think seed i've seen that may have been perigrina were mainly shell with little guts,twice,same thing each time....wonder if there just is not much viable perigrina seed produced.

t s t .

[Torsten]

sadly tantra has the right idea. The only way to be sure what you have is to see if it can go dormant or if it dies. The botanical descriptiosn have so many variables that they easily cross over. seems like colubrina seeds don't usually have any DMT in them, so this can sometimes be used as a test.

[mauve]

That's weird, there must be another way to identify those plants...

Another countries of interest for sourcing Peregrina would be the great and the lesser Antilles (Puerto Rico, Tobago, Trinidad, Hispaniola, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Martinique and Guadeloupe), there are still some trees growing there. The ancestors were imported by the Taino indians and heavily used for rituals and healing. However the Caribeans Peregrina seems to become rare now. The name in creole is "Bois-galle". I'm going to contact a friend there...

Edited July 5, 2008 by mauve