Torsten Posted June 7, 2007 What is the process by which bitter herbs stimulate the production of bile? Do all bitter substances have this effect? Is the effect reliant on taste or can bitter herbs be consumed in capsules with the same benefit? I am trying to stimulate my bile flow as I appear to have an intermittent blockage in the bile duct or pancreatic duct. I don't really like bitter foods, but I wouldn't mind making high powered bitter extracts [hmmm, Calea....] and gobbling them down in capsules. I don't seem to have any liver problems, so I am not interested in the thistle extracts etc. I am specifically interested in decalcification of gall stones, and an increase in bile flow [which btw, doesn't actually mean higher production, but rather faster ejection of the fluid from the gall bladder before it is concentrated]. oh, and I am also not interested in the popular lemonjuice, epsoms salts and olive oil gallstone 'cure'. It has been thoughly debunked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Monk Posted June 7, 2007 This is quite interesting along those lines, bitter herb info . Of particular interest is the section stating that the principles must actually interact with the taste receptors to stimulate gastrin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auxin Posted June 7, 2007 Maby Phyllanthus niruri? Used traditionally for kidney and gall stones, stimulates bile flow, hypocholesterolemic, hypolipidemic, hypotensive, diuretic, experimental antiviral. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
worowa Posted June 7, 2007 G'day Torsten, I can't answer all your questions, but I can share my experiences. In 2000 I had intense recurring pain in my upper right abdomen, so after a week of pain I went to a Doctor. She examined me and suggested I had gall stones, and her advice was lay off the fatty food and come back in a week, at which time she would organise surgery if I still had a problem. I jumped on my bike and headed home, on the way passing a big wormwood, the silvery Artemesia absinthum. I remembered something about it being a bile stimulant, so i snapped off a couple of bunches and headed home. When I got home I ran a hot bath, and put the kettle on. I brewed up a strong batch of wormwood tea, and a pot of dandelion and chicory root (Bonville I think, readily available). Yes they are bitter, and my belief is the taste buds are directly implicated, so I recommend copping it, but I'm accustomed to the taste now, and enjoy black coffee and other bitters. Anyhow, when I was in the bath I drank my teas, and after maybe 10 minutes, my gall bladder let out a deep rumble, really loud, and I could feel something moving inside. I've been pain free since. I don't know which tea did the job, but I shared my experience with my 83 year old granny in law, and she followed suit. Her doctors where amazed when they did the second lot of scans, and cancelled her surgery. An old time remedy I haven't tried was to drink a cup of olive oil! I guess it super stimulates the gall bladder. Good luck, and give it a go, the bitters aren't that bad, and don't add sugar or milk to the dandy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ajna Posted June 7, 2007 i believe the general consensus is that you are required to taste the bitter herbs in order to get the desired effect, as stimulation is via the vagus nerve. however i have a memory of reading about one study where Gentian root was observed having a direct choleretic effect on isolated parietal cells, so there may be more to it. if i can find more info on this i'll post it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coin Posted June 8, 2007 (edited) turmeric, dandelion root & artichokes are all palatable increase in bile flow from gallbladder = cholagogue increase production of bile in liver = choleretic increase contractive strength of gallbladder = choliokinetic the thistles have these effects Phyllanthus niruri as mentioned, and Eclipta both have cholagogue/deobstruent properties http://www.pfaf.org/database/search_use.ph...B%5D=Cholagogue Edited June 8, 2007 by coin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fenris Posted June 8, 2007 oh, and I am also not interested in the popular lemonjuice, epsoms salts and olive oil gallstone 'cure'. It has been thoughly debunked. Debunked? I honestly thought that this worked and that any debunking was your typical "its not western medicine therefore its rubbish" So what are the stones that are passed using this method? The emerald green ones that have a cross section like a gob-stopper with all the layed down layers? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conan Troutman Posted June 8, 2007 first thing that comes to mind, Phyllanthus niruri If you are after a herbal alternative Im with Auxin, Phyllanthus (aka The STONEBREAKER!) stops calcium oxalate crystal formation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted June 8, 2007 Some really good info here, thanks. Will start on Phyllanthus. About the debunk, a NZ hospital did some research on this cure and found that the green soft pellets are actually made of the same fatty acids as the olive oil and do not contain ANY gall fluid, calcium or cholesterol, which is what gall stones are made of. Apparently the number and size of pellets depends on the amount of bicarb released by the pancreas at the time as this is required for saponification. The pellets are actually soap balls - more or less. Interestingly they did not dismiss the cure completely as there are some sound principles in it. They merely dismiss the green pellets as a stunt/hoax. The epsom salts are sensible as magnesium is given to decalcify and soften the stones. This is part of all gall stone treatments. The olive oil isn't actually a bad idea either as most gall problems are due to cholesterol blocking the bile duct. Olive oil is pretty good at dissolving cholesterol. The lemon jiuce appears to serve little purpose other than to expediate the cleansing. So yeah, don't bother crapping in a sieve if you do that cure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coin Posted June 8, 2007 (edited) If you've ever seen someone with a gallstone lodged in the duct, I can't understand how you would consider doing a flush like that Some of those flush junkies seem to recommend taking a lot of apple juice for days leading up to the olive oil/magnesium. Supposedly that will soften the stones. One of the reasons given for using magnesium is that it will help relax the duct so it does not spasm and trap a stone. Those sites also always sell products containing Gold Coin Grass, but I couldn't find much info on it. Edited June 8, 2007 by coin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyAmine. Posted June 9, 2007 I hear that sonic baths help a lot and are used to break up stones in hospital. They put you in a bath of water (probabaly saline) then pulse sonic waves through the water into your body breaking up the stones to a small enough size to pass them... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coin Posted June 9, 2007 I don't think lithotripsy is very commonly used for gallstones though - mostly kidney stones Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted June 9, 2007 ... lithotripsy... cool name. so does tripsy mean 'breaking up'? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coin Posted June 9, 2007 yep performed with a lithotripter. with laparoscopy/"key-hole surgery" so common/simple now, most md's just recommend removing the gallbladder - you can go home after 1-2 days..it's much "simpler" than using lithotripsy & dissolution agents. they can remove the gallstones, but removing the gallbladder is preferred because most people have recurrence of stones and end up back in hospital. a lot has to do with genetics, but recurrence is probably equally related to diet/lifestyle. there are usually particular foods that trigger biliary colic and the patient just learns to avoid those foods but often doesn't make further dietary adjustments..meanwhile the gallbladder is filling up with stones & eventually becomes dysfunctional/diseased even with the gallbladder removed, people still get stones in the other ducts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devance Posted June 10, 2007 http://www.tropilab.com/black-cat.html 'Phyllanthus amarus, niruri and urinaria are all employed in the treatment against kidney - and gallstones as well, other kidney related problems.' ------------------------------------------------------------ Cranberry use apparently can be good as well. But after a lifetime problem with gallstones which I didn't understand at the time, this was effective as a smooth muscle stimulant, which works on the gallbladder to squeeze the stones out. One could make a fortune if isolated but I am too lazy to do so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyAmine. Posted June 10, 2007 ahh, yes Kidney Stones, sorry about that, got them confused. Either way its an amazing technology. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spunwhirllin Posted June 11, 2007 The epsom salt/grapefruit juice method has worked for my gallstones,instant relief. These were true gallstones,they sat for a week and remained hard,and did contain calcified fats. Malic acid is what you really want to try,this seems to break stones down slowly. I've tried the phyllanthus in tincture and herb form. The tincture is alright,but the herb is way to bitter,painfully bitter. Just watch out for herbs such as dandelion and ginger that force the gall bladder to purge,this can cause stones to block the bile duct and cause the gall bladder to burst. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
