The Future Of David Hicks

[SaBReT00tH]

Hey people, apparently it's 7 months until David Hicks is released from jail here in Adelaide. Anyone have any theories of what he's going to do? Anyone think he'll seek retribution against the Western world and plan something bigger (under the mentality of a Muslim martyr)? I can imagine he'd be watched like a hawk by ASIO for a few years to come, lol!

Edited May 29, 2007 by SaBReT00tH

[Anodyne]

Probably just try to get back to his life, which seems like all he was ever doing. And what do you mean something bigger? Bigger than what? What the hell was he actually charged with? Consorting with the enemy or some such?

[Jesus On Peyote]

u do know he was in afghanistan fighting vs the americans when they invaded, then ran like a bitch...no commitment.

pack him up and let him live in pakistan. i dont understand this whole bring hicks home thing... if he was of middle easten background with a big beard but was born in australia does anyone really think there would have been a fuss over that guy?

Edited May 29, 2007 by Jesus On Peyote

[Anodyne]

You do know that the US government have been know to lie on occasion, right? Check the facts. He was actually captured by Northern Alliance fighters, who according to his correspondence with his family, are the very people he went there to oppose - do you still reckon we should believe their story? Also, as the NA were paid by the US for capturing significant figures, isn't it rather in their interest to talk him up a little, like "oh yeah man, he talked to Bin Laden all the time, he had AK47, grenades, WOMD hidden up his ass.." - they get paid more, and get the kudos of capturing this guy.

i dont understand this whole bring hicks home thing...

Well at the moment he's just been brought home to serve the rest of his sentence in a jail in his own country where he may not be tortured quite so much, but hey, he's just a dirty towel-head, right JoP? Who cares if they're held & tortured for years & then released without charge, like other Guantanomo inmates have been - they must be evil, the US gov't said so. And the beards are a dead giveaway.

if he was of middle easten background with a big beard but was born in australia does anyone really think there would have been a fuss over that guy?

Like Mamdouh Habib, say?

[Maturin]

Anodyne - by his own admission, Hicks said he met Bin Laden up to about 8 times. Hicks has admitted to training in Al Qaeda training camps whilst being part of the Taliban. Hicks has been charged, and found guilty, of "providing material support to terrorism".

Given his history of training (with ample evidence) with no less than three known terrorist groups, I personally don't find it that hard to believe he is guilty.

As for others held and charged at Gitmo, at least a dozen who were released have been recaptured fighting in Afghanistan.

[Jesus On Peyote]

Ok u seem to miss my point and put very racist words in my mouth, which i do not appreciate.

I hate america more then the next guy, but on the topic, what was he doing in afghanistan? i know the us lie and murder and are wankers,basically. it doesent matter how he was captured, he was there fighting, aka hes a "terrorist" by law.He knew what he was doing,for the most part. he aint above the law, no matter how dumb it may be.

he's just a dirty towel-head, right JoP? Who cares if they're held & tortured for years & then released without charge, like other Guantanomo inmates have been - they must be evil, the US gov't said so. And the beards are a dead giveaway.

This is the racist quote you where implying to me.. n i find it sickening you would go n push that on someone (unless you just dont like me). Do you think i was implying guantanamo is a good place and anyone at all should be in there?

my point was the racist hypocrisy of the aus (and every other fkn place) media and even down to the very people that protested for hicks but forgot about people like Mr habib.

Mamdouh Habib got very little to no "bring him back" coverage compared to hicks.. why?

The only thing iv heard about mamdouh was that he was getting his house vandalised and his life threatened.. when hicks gets out how much of that will happen to him? im guessing very little.. why? im sure you know.

[Torsten]

I really couldn't give a shit about Hicks. I dread the thought that he is going to be famous and will be all over the media in 12 months. Bottom line is that he did go to train with the Taliban, and I dislike them about the same as [or maybe a little bit more than] the americans.

The reason why Hicks became a focal point for so many australians was because of the injustice and human rights violation that exists in Guantanamo and with the denial of POW status. In a way it would have been better for the cause if Hicks hadn't been released as that way there would be more focus on Guantanamo rather than on Hicks. That said, I think 5 years at gitmo is way beyond the punishment deserved by a lost sheep like him so I am glad he is out.

I just hope we will all forget about him soon and concentrate on the human rights abuses by the Taliban and the USA.

And for once I agree with JoP. The racism that has been evident in regards to Habib and other non-western detainees has been disgusting and only reinforces why this situation exists.

[Anodyne]

People called for the release of both of them when they were in Guantanomo - Mamdouh Habib was released earlier, & then they just called for Hicks - what's racist about that? From what I've heard, people actually seem to be more offended that a white Aussie guy got involved in this, than a guy of middle-eastern descent. And I apologise for putting words in your mouth - this is obviously a sensitive topic, I'll try to keep it civil. I just don't think anyone should be subjected to the sort of shit these guys were, and when people use the confessions which are apparently the results of human rights violations to condemn them and call them all sorts of shit, it upsets me. What I was trying to point out in my last post was that due to the circumstances of his capture & imprisonment, it's uncertain whether he was actually fighting anyone at the time. The first time he was charged, in 2004, they didn't claim that he was fighting - but these charges were later voided. Also, the law making "providing material support for terrorism" an offence was apparently only incorporated into US law in 2006, 5 years after he was captured, making it a "retrospective offence", which is not acknowledged under Australian law or the Geneva Convention (which both we & the US signed).

And Maturin, if I'd just been tortured for 5 years, I'd admit to having met Bin Laden too. And Saddam Hussein. And Jesus. Anyone would - they might even believe it, 5 years is a long time. Unfortunately, as he never got a fair trial, we'll never know what actually happened. From all I've heard about David Hicks, it seems like he was an idealist, who became interested in Islam & later on in fighting with various Muslim "freedom fighters". However I think his "jihad" was essentially a personal, non-violent one. If you look up the different types of jihad, you'll find that violence for most Muslims is an absolute last resort - jihad can mean something like "holy war", but this can also mean the struggle for each person to improve themselves within the guidelines of their religion, or something along those lines. No doubt there are violent nutcases as well - they pop up everywhere, and Hicks may well be one - but for the most part, Muslims would not be fighting if they saw an alternative.

[Jesus On Peyote]

No problem, anodyne. it is sensitive and words on a screen are hard to read in full if u know what i mean.

Anyways,im pretty much on the same line as torsten, dont like seeing or hearing about him n dont care much about his own situation rather then the overall situation of human rights issues,like the secret CIA detention camps and cia kidnappings from arab countries and so on, which get over shadowed.

Btw on another note, i think iv just read something recently about him renouncing his islamic faith, donno how old it is or if its true. or if it even matters.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Jesus On Peyote

[Maturin]

Anodyne - The allegations of "torture" can also be construed as possible lies. How do we know that he was tortured? Only because he, his lawyers and other detainees said so - but that does not make it true. If I was a violent Jihadist, I would make up any lie to make my jailors look bad. Can we believe his lawyers?

For years we heard through his lawyers that he was thin, gaunt and wasting away - and then when we see him he is fat! We hear torture allegations for years, and then when he gets out apparently he has been studying (at our taxpayers expense) to hopefully go to uni one day! Major Mori never let that one on to the Australian public did he?

If you read the letters Hicks sent his father, they contain all sorts of nasty stuff. For instance (from Wikipedia):

...Terry Hicks reads out excerpts of David Hicks's letters, in which Hicks says that his training in Pakistan and Afghanistan is designed to ensure "the Western-Jewish domination is finished, so we live under Muslim law again". He denounces the plots of the Jews to divide Muslims and make them think poorly of Osama bin Laden and warns his father to ignore "the Jews' propaganda war machine," ... "I got to fire hundreds of bullets. Most Muslim countries impose hanging for civilians arming themselves for conflict. There are not many countries in the world where a tourist, according to his visa, can go to stay with the army and shoot across the border at its enemy, legally." Hicks stated in a letter to his father whilst serving in Kashmir.[19]

etc, etc. Clearly this guy had issues, and was not on a "personal, non-violent" jihad. Why join the Taliban in that case? Why not write books and peacefully spread his message? And he was clearly racist towards Jews.

Regards meeting Bin Laden:

In November 2005, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation programme Four Corners broadcast for the first time a transcript of an interview with Hicks, conducted by the Australian Federal Police in 2002.[37] In this interview Hicks acknowledged that he had trained with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, learning guerrilla tactics and urban warfare. He also acknowledged that he had met Osama bin Laden.

This has also been confirmed by other Muslims caught. If it were lies, why did they independently acknowledge this? Note this confession was not long after capture, not "5 years of torture".

I guess I'm in a very (very) small minority here, in that I DON'T hate America or Americans. I do hate their GOVERNMENT though (which is a big difference). I also don't understand the logic from some people such as JoP, who complains bitterly about being labeled a racist, but in the same post says:

"I hate america more then the next guy...i know the us lie and murder and are wankers,basically"

Huh? It's all hate, dude (although it's your perfect right to believe this.) Now, okay America is not a race, per se ... but then neither are Muslims if we are hair-splitting. Islam is a RELIGION, not a RACE. Anyone can become one, you don't have to be born into it. Whilst I don't hate races as such, I personally admit that I hate Islam (and Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Scientology, Raelians, Breatherarians and any other group of people who believe in unscientific, unsubstantiated fairy-tale nonsense).

As for "Muslims would not be fighting if they saw an alternative" - bullshit, Ghandi changed his entire fucking country without any violence at all.

[Jesus On Peyote]

I guess I'm in a very (very) small minority here, in that I DON'T hate America or Americans. I do hate their GOVERNMENT though (which is a big difference). I also don't understand the logic from some people such as JoP, who complains bitterly about being labeled a racist, but in the same post says:

"I hate america more then the next guy...i know the us lie and murder and are wankers,basically"

Thats true, though i was meaning it more to the government, allltho there are a few groups in usa i dont like.

The government (both sides), Evangelical propaganda machines,the military complex,their capitalist industrial reasoning,their secret gov agencies,their war budget,their wars(Korea was understandable,Vietnam was near genocide,and all the middle east wars where pre planned for greed),Their covert wars, their war on drugs and so on and so forth lol.

Not so much the people, but the nations state as a whole if u know what i mean, and i think everyone else who says anything anti American sees it pretty much the same way.

[Guest Øskorei]

Anyone think he'll seek retribution against the Western world and plan something bigger (under the mentality of a Muslim martyr)?

Umm, yea, bigger than what ? Following his heart ? There's an admirable nobility in someone being brave enough at some stage of their life to follow what they believe to to the true path, and put theory into action. Everyone 'against' Hicks should separate the passion from the terror. And then start bagging out your mom & dad for voting liberal/labour.

And he can't be a matyr if he's still alive. Dude, curb you race (or religion) -hate, as subtle as it was worded.

[Maturin]

JoP - Yeah, I kinda figured that is what most people think (hating the government, not the people)...but I feel it's a good distinction to make.

"There's an admirable nobility in someone being brave enough at some stage of their life to follow what they believe to to the true path, and put theory into action."

- There is nothing noble about it in my opinion...he could have killed someone for "following his heart" all because of his belief in a deity that cannot be proved.

[Auxin]

Generally when dealing with people, governments, yappy dogs, etc I think hate is overkill.

I'm not saying I think hating the US gov't is unjustified (quite the contrary) but it hurts yourself more than them. What does Bush care if some dude 5000 miles away hates him. Y'all arent even voters or anything. Ditch the hate, its bad for your cardiovascular system, and instead hurt them where they'll feel it- their bank account. Make it publicly known your boycotting goods from america and american based companies and encourage others to do the same.

For the few who want to be even more active protest the construction of US military bases in Oz and petition the government to bring the aussie troops home, just be sure that before you do any physical acts of resistance you ask yourself 'what would Gandhi do?'

[Anodyne]

If you read the letters Hicks sent his father, they contain all sorts of nasty stuff. For instance (from Wikipedia):

Yeah, they do. But some of the stuff not posted on Wikipedia (many letters were shown on a doco years ago) also indicates that he was a bit of a "lost sheep", as Torsten said.

Anodyne - The allegations of "torture" can also be construed as possible lies. How do we know that he was tortured? Only because he, his lawyers and other detainees said so - but that does not make it true. If I was a violent Jihadist, I would make up any lie to make my jailors look bad. Can we believe his lawyers?

True enough. But I do find it interesting that his lawyer was at one point apparently threatened with charges too - Colonel Davis has criticised Major Mori's trips to Australia as excessive and has accused him of breaching Article 88 of the US military code, which relates to using contemptuous language towards the US President, Vice-President, and Secretary of Defense. Penalties potentially include jail and the loss of both employment and accrued entitlements. (also from Wikipedia). That can be taken both ways, I suppose - you could say "oh, the lawyer was sympathetic so we can't believe anything he says", or you could say "he was so disgusted by the conditions that he became sympathetic".

Clearly this guy had issues, and was not on a "personal, non-violent" jihad. Why join the Taliban in that case? Why not write books and peacefully spread his message?

Well it looks like for a while, that's exactly what he was doing - just working on his studies, trying to be a better Muslim. But he was studying in some pretty fucked up countries, and ended up getting involved in violent actions - this could've been because he decided it was the only route, or he could've just liked guns. Who knows?

just be sure that before you do any physical acts of resistance you ask yourself 'what would Gandhi do?

[nabraxas]

the allegations of "torture" can also be construed as possible lies

fact is

US intelligence has devoted extensive time and effort to devising interrogation techniques which they claim fall short of qualifying as torture.

Such as

Environmental manipulation

Subjecting prisoners to extremes of hot and cold.

Forced grooming

Forcible shaving. Deeply humiliating for some Muslims.

Manipulative self-injurious behaviour

The US government’s description of 21 attempted suicides at Guantanamo Bay.

Pride and ego down

Label for techniques used to undermine prisoners’ self-esteem and dignity.

Rendition

Kidnapping terrorist suspects and delivering them to a foreign country for trial. In ‘extraordinary rendition’, suspects are ‘lent’ to a foreign country for interrogation and torture.

R2I

Resistance to interrogation: a training system used by British special forces, in which subjects are stripped naked and sexually humiliated.

Rumsfeld processing

Colloquial term for removing prisoners from army camps and holding them in CIA facilities, which the Red Cross is not permitted to visit.

Sensory deprivation

Depriving prisoners of both sight and hearing, for example, by hooding combined with white noise.

Sleep adjustment

Repeatedly interrupting a prisoner’s sleep, while allowing them adequate sleep overall.

Stress position

Position which a prisoner is ordered to maintain, causing discomfort or pain without physical contact.

Unlawful combatants

US definition of Al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners; as such, they are said to be unprotected by the Geneva Conventions.

The Vietnam

Treatment in which electrodes (real or fake) are attached to the victim's body.

Waterboarding

CIA treatment in which the victim is smothered with a wet cloth, creating the sensation of drowning.

http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/T/torture/index.html

http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/...afx2110388.html

[Vertmorpheus]

Rightio.... all modern armies torture people. Yep, even us. It's not the sole domain of those nasty murderous amerikaaners or brits. Our psywarfare centre here in Aust. uses a wide range of nasty techniques to ensure special forces types wont spill guts without a lot of added pressure to do so... even then, half the boys that attend quit after a week or less, its hard shit. Yep, white noise, dark rooms, water, rats, pain and exhaustion, drugs, starving, beatings, mocking, family references...we use all those techs on OUR OWN PEOPLE ... and if one of ours, hooking up one of theirs, to a truck battery is going to keep my family members alive and healthy, so be it. Lot of nasty language being thrown around about coalition forces... not as much bein said about 9 being seen as an age of consent, abduction, beheading of civilians, carbombing of people trying to just get some bloody work to pay the bills... we're not perfect, they're not perfect. Both, all sides do some pretty sick shit. Hello... it's a WAR ZONE. wattya want em to use? threatening hand gestures (as long as they dont offend any faith specific sensibilities that is)?

the whole reason behind this current crock of shit is bad people using the basic goodness of others against them... I'm all for tolerance, but do you realise that some of these forces would happily kill each and every last one of us? cool plants and happy thoughts or not? They would readily bomb your kids, assault your mum, behead your dad after making him spout some pro bin laden crap.

Dave was a nobody wanting to be a somebody, but if he wanted to kill or maim westerners, he doesnt need to go to afghanistan to do it... he'd get onto any one of a number of great sites run by nice white western kids, detailing how to nuke a bus with napisan and the right weight of fencing staples to use, then hed go out and blow some locals to bloodied shreds. If being in a warzone, armed, but not with "legit" forces makes you a terrorist, check out the 1/3 of western personnel in those parts of the world that are not there with armies, but with private companies, hired killers, often discharged from legit service for discipline and legal reasons, emotional disorders, or just not enough action. (PMF blackwell etc). The fact that davie met binladen a few times means fuck all... I've met a few interesting people, doesn't mean I agree with or support them in anything much. I have pics of people meeting john howard that I know for a FACT think hes a completely evil fuckstick.. lets hope in times to come, those pics are not found by bad guys and used as motivation to lock up some humble aussies that happened to shake hands with someone once or twice.

The really amazing thing is that people I actually know that have actually been to these parts of the world on active service (yes.... I know some of the Dark Forces... easy to spot with the civvie brains stuck to their stormtrooper boots n all...get a grip eh?) don't have any real definite opinions as to the rightness, the efficiency, and the logic of the situation and the combatants involved... but those of us sittin here readin MSN news and watching channel 7 for some reason are among the finest military tacticians ever known! geeze we're a clever bunch aren't we? Amazing what you can know for a fact , with no bloody facts to base it on. hand out some basic hort advice and its "verify or retract" time... but you can sit n theoris all you want about things that are comfortingly "over there"... "on telly"....

Just remember, the blokes involved in all sides are real people, doing what htey feel is right one way or another. Their families, friends, partners might read this shit and get a tad upset. Want moral dilemna? Try being coalition forces forced to interact pleasantly with inbred mountain types into dressing young boys as girls and buggering them en masse... but they are anti taliban, so our boys cant touch em for being sick, warped, fucked up individuals. Try working out who you can and cant blow away when in a part of the world where farming done in wadi bottoms with bobcats tends to show up on satpics as hardened positions, and the locals tend to pop off a couple shots by way of greeting... if in the middle of all that some bumbling white boy that isnt meant to be there, turns up, hes going to get their full attn for a lil while... as at least in his case, there is no ambiguity. Of course, plenty of bored white men were runnin around that part of the world befoer the shiite hit the fan.. just most of em had sense to get away a lot quicker than hicksie.

The issue re dave for average australians wasnt what he did or didnt do, it was that he was the latest in a long and growing line of aussie citizens left to rot and get bent over by other countries because we are the worlds bitches. Least they didnt find him trying to smuggle some hydro INTO indo right?

And the training thing... just remember that once all this shit is over n done with, if the bearded blokes win and we lose... any of us that did army cadets, scouts (started by a noted imperialist and warmonger) or are members of the SCA might just get labelled as having undertaken terrorist training. Sounds silly doesnt it? But thats the problem with blanket definitions... they tend to make people look silly.

Stunned at the shit that comes out of peoples mouths.... offer some basic hort advice around here and its prove this, verify that... but speculate all you want about who is doing what in parts of the world you know next to nothing about (beyond wiki, I mean). Remember... those involved are not just bubbleheads sticking out of the top of a tank... they are real people, that some of us actually happen to know, and love, respect and cherish. And if putting the boots onto some filthy criminal bent on killing us and ours , I'll mail em my spare steelcaps.

War is a shit of a thing... we've all seen mash... but if those in the know dont know what to do exactly, do you reckon this idle speculation on the details we know nuthin about is doing anyone any good? Remember, its a cover song by the herd for some of yez... but its loved ones for some of us... living can be a matter of life and death... sad to think people are willing to make that sacrifice for people that think they are evil by default. Its not about oil and its not about faith... its about cutting the rotten sections of out an organism before they spread, unite, overwhelm with sepsis and filth. The approach might not be perfect, but the ideal is worthy.Geneva convention... covers servicemen and women, not criminals, not murderers, not those killing for power and profit without any regard for rules or common decency. Tellin me if some redneck militia types out of the bush started runnin amok in your local shops killin people, but had a set of guiding principles if not actually wearing uniforms or insignia, or having declared war... they should be afforded every human decency as legitimate forces? Bullshit... thugs are thugs. The more or less just says dont go out of your way to inflict especially painful death if you dont have to... the copy carried by our lads (maybe just my lads?) amounts to three a4 pages folded n stapled... it covers fuck all beyond the common sense and decency the vast majority of western troops show in any theatre of war these days.

Do something, do nothing, they are fucked either way... let indo brutalise timor for 20 years, no thats nasty... so step in... no thats imperialism.. make up your mind already. Do we accept that some elements in society need the odd smack or dont we? Or shall we just sit here and wring our hands never takin action on anything ever for fear that we might end up...yknow...hurting someone (couldnt have that in a warzone, geeze whats next... sex in bed?)

Remember... there are people out there that want you, your family, your freedom and your way of life erased forever so they can reinstate their backwards, ignorant, child-women-faith abusing society to do "gods work". I'm happy to hear some are so blissed up they can be tolerant of that... but don't expect all of us to think like that.

just my 4 dollars 50 worth.take care guys... lucky we're not facin the draft anymore eh?

GD

[Jesus On Peyote]

You bring up some points, however one sided they may be..

This war and the islamic resistance and terror attacks are a direct reaction to years of oppression.they are no more thugs then the offical army solliders that serve there ( there was a report that said a big majority of US troops support forms of torture.

Remember... there are people out there that want you, your family, your freedom and your way of life erased forever so they can reinstate their backwards, ignorant, child-women-faith abusing society to do "gods work". I'm happy to hear some are so blissed up they can be tolerant of that... but don't expect all of us to think like that.

You make yourself sound like a republican running for president. mix that qoute with this one

Just remember, the blokes involved in all sides are real people, doing what htey feel is right one way or another.

And you really start sounding like a public servent... you say you see both sides, but one side ur missing to see is all the dead iraqis.every dead iraqi, is as much of a person as one of "us" fighting against "them".

flip side for a second. if australia was under the same conditions that iraq is in under the oppression and occupation of Indonesia(as an example), and youve just lost your brother to "an airstrike targeting anti indonasian rebels", many of your famaliy members have been killed or have been sent to prison without as much as notification, pretty much dissapired.

Im sure you will be a proud and willing member of the reistance willing to die and kill for your countries protection.

What makes us different from them? were the ones that have been screwing them. i know i wouldent take it.

and on a quick side not,, i think iv mentioned this b4, but greece fought a 400 year war of independence against turky occupation and near genocide with untold abuses against them,not more then 1000 years ago.. if they had given up and submitted in the first10 years, the greek language would have been wiped out and welld have been part of turky.. 400 years.

Im not saying terrorists are good people, but i am saying they are fighting for what they beleaive.much like everyone else.

[Torsten]

GD, I feel sorry for the soldiers who are pawns in this game. This is not about them. It is mostly about those who shape public opinion that allowed this situation to arise. You know, the oens who lie about WMDs and about why they really want to be powerful in the middle east.

History has shown us that the US does not get invovled anywhere unless it is for resources of the region, so falling for the same lame excuses every time makes those true believers pretty dumb in my opinion. Afterwards they realise it was all bogus but that never lasts long enough to shape the next political cycle.

If you really want to know what this US administration is doing you should have a look at the Project for an american centrury which is a thinktank that consists of all prominent neocons. From their mission statement it was obvious exactly what this administration was going to do and how it was going to do it.

Yes, it is easy to sell a war by claiming it will increase freedom and democracy, but really how blind are you? For every country that the US has 'liberated' it has also caused the demise of a democratic system. Just think of Chile and several of the other left wing south american democracies the US helped to destabilise. Think of East Timor where the USA gave permission for Indonesia to invade. Think of Iran contra. Think of Saddam himself being a CIA recipient under the old Bush. And most ludicrous of all, think of Bin Laden having received funding and training from the US not long before he decided to turn against them. So why is it OK for Bin Laden to do his evil work when he is working for the USA, but not OK when he is working against them?

The USA shoudl just be honest and tell people why they do things the way they are. That they need to secure oil resources so their people can drive big SUVs. I am sure plenty of americans will support them cos to them the SUV is more important than some dirty muslims. Oh, I forget. They were in fact honest and told us all this on their website LONG ago. But no one bothered to read it:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

This is not some left wing attempt at discrediting the US government. This IS the US government - well, at leat the most powerful players in it. For a closer analysis of that website and the consequenes of it UTSE as this was discussed several years ago by those who weren't asleep.

[Vertmorpheus]

My basic point was that the planet seems to be full of self appointed experts on shit that even the real experts cant agree on. Why do we interview former SAS commanders and ol pete cosgrove when we should just ask makka down the pub what he reckons? Why do all these big evil organisations (if you had any real idea of just how evil we COULD be, but hold back from it, and the fact that those we are fighting wouldn't shy away from resorting to those tricks whatsoever if they had the chance to use em) spend a fuckin fortune on hiring sandhurst graduates, west point graduates, relying on bullshit expensive satellite tech... when they could just go and ask you what to do?

I'd rather a country run by me than you, not to be offensive. But you can't sit there and criticise me for what I said, then pop out with all the same concepts in mirror image form.

T, ya make some good points as always...but if "we" just wanted the resources, we have the means to get all those pesky people out of the way in the blink of an eye. We dont use em. Because thats not the be all n end all of why we go to war. But those wise old men with the nice old beards would use em in a second if they had the means to do the same to us.

Let me know when you're moving out of the evil west and to somewhere enlightened like china or pakistan eh?

Sometimes life is a little unpleasant, we apologise for any inconvenience.

peace out man

GD

Edited May 31, 2007 by greendreams

[Ace]

T, ya make some good points as always...but if "we" just wanted the resources, we have the means to get all those pesky people out of the way in the blink of an eye. We dont use em. Because thats not the be all n end all of why we go to war. But those wise old men with the nice old beards would use em in a second if they had the means to do the same to us.

What makes you think that the 'bearded ones' would knock us all off if they had a chance? Whats to say that they arent just as peaceful as the majority of 'westerners'? Fair enough, there are plenty of sadistic buggers in the world, but that was a pretty unfair generalisation IMO - do you mind explaining a little more GD?

Sorry, it could be a bit of sarcasm that went undetected...

[Vertmorpheus]

ace, i just get sick to the back teeth and beyond of people enjoying a western lifestyle whilst ragging out those that preserve its interests. I did not mean each and every last islamic individual... I mean those that fund groups that encourage people to frag buses fulla civvies, cook up ricin in the middle of london, plan on launching RPG's into lucas heights... they wouldn't be fucking around with acetone peroxide in eskies if they could get hands on selective viruses, nuclear weaponry and starvation style trade sanctions.All of which we could use, but rarely do. Which is a bit limp what with us being evil dictators n al lthat... pissing about with refugee camps, providing armed coverage for aid workers (so they dont get robbed, raped, killed by those highly decent freedom fighters yez love so much), sending large numbers of engineers etc to rebuild the damage we "had" to inflict early on seems a bit out of character eh?

No country is above reproach, and if nothin else thinkin about all this is a good way to remind you of what you hold dear about your own country, and what about it gives you the shits. But it seems for every hundred points of criticism aimed at the west/western forces/western policy, youre lucky to see more than one remark about "hmmm...seems a lil brutal to cut the head off some engineer". "seems a little backwards to execute a 10 yaer old for complaining shes been raped" "seems a lil backwards to want to dominate the entire planet with your religion". I know its great fun to hate america, and I dont like everything about the place and what it represents either... but if anyone out there honestly believes that we are in the wrong and the men orchestrating what are criminal rather than military acts are entirely in the clear, maybe its time you sent your paychecks to osama and stopped benefiting from the Evil West and its Godless Ways.

Freedom fighters , terrorists, resistance fighters... it all depends on where you stand. But I belive that there is something to be said for basic western decency... we don't, repeat don't, intentionally target areas that we know for a fact are nothing more than civvie shopping areas. We don't, repeat don't, deliberately launch attacks on aid workers. Yes, "We" do some nasty things, and anyone that believes otherwise is being naive...we do torture people, and yknow what? we even kill em sometimes... as I said before, if cutting toes off someone stops his mates being able to cut heads off a dozen of our blokes... I'm all for it. I know thats not very laid back of me, and being into plants I should be accepting of everything I know... but im just not. War was not invented by america, despite what "insertweblinkhere.com" would like you to believe. Why must beliefs be seen as a .... a package deal? A meal combo? I can get high and not eat red meat and still agree that sometimes, people just need shooting before they get us.

to repeat...by wise old men with beards I meant "the other sides" equivalent of bush, rumsfeld, whoever...the heroic freedom fighters of yesteryear (yknow what, they were bastards even when we did like em... but not bastards to us... ) direct quotes from these characters (and i know they are all oppressed n whatnot, how bad i feel for em too) make repeated mention of destroying the west and what it stands for.wiping the infidel from the earth. Cleansing the world of sin. Now, i dunno if yez have noticed...but thats us guys. You, and me. They could give less of a shit that we are cool felafel munchin dope growin critters... we are the new satan. Joe Iraqi just wants to get his bills paid, and his kids to smile... its his fuckwit neighbours that dont like that he doesnt support them and their leaders that are fucking everything up.That blow up people lining up to be police, people trying to repair water mains, all that.That kill bakers for selling bread to supporters of a democratic iraq, and kill barbers for trimming beards.

The west isnt perfect... but we're all still living here for a reason... because we have the right and the time to sit here on the internet and share opinions, get a lil fired up, without beign executed, liquidated, vanished as enemies of the state, or of God. If "We" were hell bent on global resource domination, in exclusion to any other considerations, there are much more efficient ways to secure an area than basically turning up and saying "we wont shoot anyone til they shoot at us". We'd be clusterbombing them to hell and back, destroying hospitals, schools, crops rather than trying our best to stabilise the place (in spite of the many locals that dont want it stabilised for various reasons). We can bring an almost obscene amount of force to bear very, very quickly... but dont. we could simply shoot any dissidents back home for criticising the process...but we dont.. now is this anyway for the global axis of Eebil to behave? as tyrants, we make pretty good babysitters.

And if its that much of a problem, don't drive your car anymore... or if you do, don't whine about fuel prices. Yes, resource security comes into it... what a ludicrous reason to go to war! certainly unheard of in history until now! oh... thats right.... its actually happened a fair bit... even before america existed as an entity. Wow. maybe they arent the root of all evil after all?

ah, thats all i have to say really... i tend to forget the mandatory hardleft stance, sorry guys. has gotten me into all kinds of blues with dole bludging uni students hooked on PBS drugs... bent on "smashing the state". one of which once pulled out the quality line of "well the battle for coral and PNG is a crock anyway cos without that we'd all just be eating sushi and manufacturing cheap cars, so all those men died for nothing but western stupidity". War is not nice. But if you found out the bloke next door was planning on setting fire to your house tonight, are you going to sit it out? get him some counselling? blame yourself for oppressing him? bugger that. I know what I'd do...

cheers too for the willingness to believe that I am a genocidal bigoted fuck too this was all equally true to me when applied to the serbs, the turks, the poles... goes to show that its not the hundred things you say that get agreed with that people remember... but the one or two that doesn't sit well with them that sticks in their minds...

I should be more vocal in my hatred for the country that has given me nothing but opportunity and security, and more supportive of those that would happily blow me limb from limb for no reason other than "righteousness".Oh sorry, forget to check out the net before saying that... I now know that every last attack on the west and western interests has actually been arranged by the CIA, spooky eh? Just like those entire airliners they got to disappear, or that "phantom cruise missile" that hit the pentagon. Cos it was too little a hole for a plane. Of course, someone I know that has actually seen what missiles do to hardened structures reckons it looks pretty legit... but they would say that, wouldnt they? Spooky....

be alarmed not alert,

GD

Edited May 31, 2007 by greendreams

[Jesus On Peyote]

^^ you DO bring up some points. I will try keep my post short, democracy is not the worst thing in the world,but it is not what it used to be. im still young at 22 but im sure older people will know for a fact their countries have changed from what they where during a freer time a few decades ago.

ace, i just get sick to the back teeth and beyond of people enjoying a western lifestyle whilst ragging out those that preserve its interests. I did not mean each and every last islamic individual... I mean those that fund groups that encourage people to frag buses fulla civvies, cook up ricin in the middle of london, plan on launching RPG's into lucas heights... they wouldn't be fucking around with acetone peroxide in eskies if they could get hands on selective viruses, nuclear weaponry and starvation style trade sanctions.All of which we could use, but rarely do. Which is a bit limp what with us being evil dictators n al lthat...

Please you should be the one that should learn more about whats going on in politics b4 you appoint yourself as an expert...I honestly and sincerely hope you read these links and the info in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions

Critics of the sanctions say that over a million Iraqis, disproportionately children, died as a result of them,although other researchers concluded that the total was lower.UNICEF has put the number of child deaths to 500,000. The reasons include lack of medical supplies, malnutrition, and especially disease owing to lack of clean water. Among other things, chlorine, needed for disinfecting water supplies, was banned as having a "dual use" in potential weapons manufacture. On May 10, 1996, appearing on 60 Minutes, Madeleine Albright (then U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations) was presented with a figure of half a million children under five having died from the sanctions. Not challenging this figure, she infamously replied "we think the price is worth it",though she later rued the comment as "stupid."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011203/cortright

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28346.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/418625.stm

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401c.asp

As far as im concerned, ild be more then willing to put on a V for vendetta mask and kick some american ass if i was an iraqi or arab (include 60 years of support jewish war crimes against palestinians).

and as for the home turf, if there was some kind of new eurka rebellion i know ill be in. non violent ghandi style of course . but then again, did anyone see that police chase show last night? the monk with a machine gun?

Edited May 31, 2007 by Jesus On Peyote

[Vertmorpheus]

haha.... maybe find a wiki on who and what "arabs" actually are... and how they differ from the average iraqi, then get back to ragging on me for being a self appointed "Expert"... at least I know WHO I'm talking about. Arabs....what a classic....hey did you know that all Asian nationalities are just about the same too? and like each other a whole lot? amazing stuff! Oh... hang on... seems thats bullshit. Woops. Ah well.They all sure LOOK fairly similar though...

Did I say that we never impose sanctions on people? what I said was that we could do it a helluva lot more than we do, but we don't... if you think the kind of toerag that would bomb a nightclub full of civvies and then sit in court grinning away, wouldn't impose harsh sanctions on every last country that doesn't support his agenda, then you're the one that needs to do the checking. What I said was that for the amount of force, cruelty, death that we CAN bring to bear, we show a remarkable restraint. If we were hell bent on death and domination we'd be doing this old school, start at one side of the country and shoot every last bastard we find that won't back down and learn our anthem. If reading any supporting info for a particular POV makes that POV automatic gospel... I really should set about putting some of the shit I hear on the phone from people taking interesting holidays into a wiki.

My overall point, is that NONE of us are experts, but it is very easy to sit on your spoilt arse listing all the fashionable reasons to hate america and its allies... we really shouldve backed off in ww2 and let the japanese forces just run amok raping and bayonetting whoever they felt like until they ended up here, to do it to us. Personally I have better things to do than jack off over my copy of stupid white men ... I could handle that if it wasnt coming from an obese white middle aged male prone to rampant air travel and buying of cheap chinese/costa rican made clothes. Cynicism is the new faith it seems.

I'm not even really sure what ya saying JOP.... are you saying that the west should just sit there and take it? wait to be knocked on the head? or that we should get fucked on prices and availability over resources that, lets face it, the countries in highest supply of it did just about nothing with until big evil people like us went and invented the internal combustion engine. Are you saying the taliban are nice blokes? Are you saying that all western troops, officers, govt people are just sick, evil cruel fucks, that hurt people for nothing but fun and lay awake at night thinking of new and improved ways to make civilians suffer? Are you saying that every last iraqi is being shot by our blokes , rather than the truth that a whole fuckin heap of em are being offed by their own people, albeit of a slightly different alignment faith wise? Are you saying that people who murder civilians on our side are ok, but we can't pop the odd shot off at theirs, take a few out with a bit of dodgy info.. Are you saying that the world should just sit back and let anyone do whatever they want , as to step in would be a bit rude? That kind of htinking is what leads to at least a handful of women in australia being beaten to death by their spouses most days of the week... cos you know...wouldnt want to intrude on someone elses affairs...or are you saying that drugs and sleep dep to soften combatants is a whole lot worse than giant meat grinders, gas attacks and death squads? That will happily kill you if you lose at soccer? Are you saying that buggering of young boys and virtual imprisonment of women and girls as a matter of course are noble cultural aspects of a great civilisation?gimmeabreak... yes, WE DO SOME BAD THINGS... no shit...nice work with the wikihunting btw...I NEVER REALISED WE IMPOSED SANCTIONS ON ANYONE EVER AT ALL, thats terrible any chance you can tell me something that isnt common bloody knowledge?but I assure you that those we are opposing would be much, much worse given a chance. Yes, we end up with some poor bastards being stacked naked into a pyramid... but then we have courtmartials and media hype over it... we don't just accept it as the way to get things done... let me know when you next see some thieves being hung in the middle of sydney eh?with an attendant crowd, snack vendors, govt officials standing around smiling... noone has a perfect nation or way of life... but some are I think better than others.

At least I know what I think... I don't think you do.But you've read around a bit eh? Try reading ...ah I dunno...something about Nazis... THATS evil, THATS domination... telling this mob that if you keep shooting at that mob we might just step in, thats just global responsibility. maybe something about the traditional hardcore islamic law that SOME people would jam down your throat using a dagger a ramrod... and how it applies to any children you may end up with one day...

Saddam was a bastard because he had to be to keep a lid on their sectarian bullshit...what has happened now has moved beyond our invasion/liberation/domination (call it what you will) and into the realm of civil war.

And yes, if the place got invaded I'm hitting the scrub in short order...but I'm not lurking in urban areas, killing any aussie that happens to be civil to the invaders. I'm not going to blow up a bunch of people to make my stupid little point. I'm not going to be a civvie when it suits me, and a legit combatant when it doesnt. I'd get some balls and be upfront, uniforms were invented for a reason.. and yes, we have operatives that don't necessarily wear em... but they don't run around blowing up marketplaces and beheading people in tv land either.... which is where all this is taking place right?

I don't happen to agree with you about this, or with most of the antieverything bullshit the internet is clogged with these days... if its not claimed to give you cancer,lupus, MS, or ADHD.... its a secret CIA plot to run the world... as I said before...would you rather China or Iran ran the world? Think they'd be kinder about it? I can't find a wiki on it, but I have it on fairly good authority from people that have been looking into this shit for longer than a couple years courtesy of wiki and cable TV specials that they wouldn't be. Can you say changi? Birkenau?Thai-Burma Railway? Singapore? Armenian? Honour killing? Public execution? The deliberate withholding of medical care, education, public transport, recreation, the arts?The places we "liberate" do tend to be in a fairly shit state of affairs for quite a while sometimes... whodathunkit, with a war being held there n all (maybe we need rubber bombs as well as rubber bullets?)... But I wouldn't say that japan is less democratic than they used to be.... and we dropped the big on on them n all... we went to war with china in korea, and they're doing ok. We invaded most of south east asia at one time or another (along with most of the western world) and whilst not perfect, cambodia seems a lil more cheerful now than it used to be. Timor aint perfect, but indo troops arent chucking nearly as many people out of choppers anymore. Things have recovered quite nicely since the boer war. Turkey is doin ok too. but no...the minute we have a blue with someone, or for someone, we just bend em over and ride em hard dont we .... cept france, poland, greece, italy...oh....quite a few actually. take a look at the "made in" section on most of your personal electronics (which btw those nice gentlemam from the taliban wouldnt be real big on you having... but it might be worth if for being able to marry 10 year olds and then cut their hands off if they give you the shits).

Remember how youre feeling now next time your shakin your head over the UN withdrawal from Rwanda, which still holds the dubious honour of the fasted rate of genocide ever recorded. About our lack of action in sierra leone... or zimbabwe... Remember that brainwashing and propaganda comes from both sides... but when alls said n done, I'd rather deal with a psychopath with conviction than an idle speculator with secondhand opinions, but no real personal interest in the matter at hand. Think our country has some fucked up laws about how you should live? You cant even begin to imagine a taliban run lifestyle... but ah, forget about it... just sit n do nothing...til you get criticised for that.

let me know when you start a militia to plant bombs in shopping centres and hospitals... I'll mail you some medals and a nice plaque out of sheer bloody respect and admiration for the remarkably civil way in which you and yours wage a war.

and going to war for only resources? yeah... ok.

we are doomed no matter what we choose to do... probably easier to get really high and just watch the simpsons or something eh?

ultimately, you are saying that some people I am very, very close to are in fact bad people by default...and that's bullshit. Thats like someone saying that every last iraqi is bad, by default... also bullshit.Pure a grade bullshit. I watch these personnel with their kids, their partners, strangers in the street (yes, even ones of the same religious or ethnic grouping as those they are fresh from brassing up)... they are mostly calm, rational, deeply feeling men and women, that the average person would pick as travel agents before picking em as underwater dems specialists or similar. Because they keep their horns under a hat or something, I guess.

ah, not worth it anymore. We all know where I stand.Feedback appreciated but not necessarily replied to. I may be busy taking pics of the local barracks and mailing em to my mates in syria, or something else productive for the human race... anythin to oppose western imperialism! I hear that if we just all went back to our own countries, everyone in every theatre of war would just turn their weapons into windchimes and grow heaps of ganja, and wouldnt take the opportunity to butcher, rape, burn their way in a primitively systematic fashion across the countryside at all.We can mail em some john butler cd's or something, thatll chill em out right?

stay in safe , healthy, stable parts of the world and everything will be ok ...just dont go wondering why it seems to run so smoothly.

GD

Edited May 31, 2007 by greendreams

[Maturin]

Auxin - I personally will not boycott American goods, that would only hurt the average Joe...and I don't see that as a good thing. Nor is my hate all-consuming I totally accept the verdict of the American people to elect whom they want - it's your democracy! (Hope you voted.)

GreenDreams makes some excellent points. Especially the one about everyone being an expert - so on that note, my 2 cents worth!!

Democracy & capitalism = good.

Stone-age religions (of any kind) interfering with non-believers = bad.

"im still young at 22 but im sure older people will know for a fact their countries have changed from what they where during a freer time a few decades ago"

- well I'm 35, and I believe democracy is alive and vibrant. Whose to blame for restrictions ranging from not being allowed nail-cutters on board planes, to not being allowed to photograph basic infrastructure without suspicion? Crazy Islamic jihadists, that's who - not Western democracy.

Nor do I subscribe to any type of woe-is-me victimhood about years of oppression. Countries in the Mid-East sitting on oil have all the opportunity in the world to bring their countries up to a standard of living that we have in the West. They are held back by themselves. Both Germany and Japan rebuilt their countries after WW2, and have done so in spectacular fashion - and in short time.

When America pulls out of Iraq, watch it disintegrate. This will not be the fault of America, this will be tribal in-fighting at its very best. Crazy jihadists will blame the West, say we are weak and terrible oppressors - and then they will continue on their merry path to oblivion.