Divinorum Poll

[Auxin]

This is a poll concerning Salvia divinorum.

While this poll does ask if you have used it, it does not ask when or where you used it- therefore admitting useage does not incriminate yourself.

[gomaos]

how come I have "no permission to vote in this poll"....

is it because i smell bad?

...do I smell bad?

[waterdragon]

gom don't wait to be told - ya need palmolive gold. only the more aged among us should recall that lot.

[Darklight]

*weeps* oh gawd, that's me. I remember that. Eeek. Ruuuun!

[Zu]

gomaos:

how come I have "no permission to vote in this poll"....

You probably weren't logged in (I got that message at first too).

Auxin: Good poll, but the question about positive/negative effects (can't remember the number and can't go back cos' I've already voted) is a little vague. I've had SD over 30 times and have had positive and negative experiences. It seemed to get worse the more experience I had. I haven't had any since it became illegal but not because it became illegal.

[Auxin]

"the question about positive/negative effects... is a little vague."

Yeah, I just didnt want to make it too long so I tried to keep thing simple. I guess I oversimplified. I should have said 'on average was it positive or negative?'.

[Zu]

Auxin:

[bI should have said 'on average was it positive or negative?'.

Yeah, that's how I took it (and answered positive). I didn't mean to nitpick

[mr b.caapi]

omg....i remember the palmolive gold ad too.....

does this mean im...."old"....

[gomaos]

Palm Olive gold hey...

i used to work in a factory where they printed the Palmolive Soap covers...

The specially smelly ink that was used was so toxic/intoxicating that very few people were actually allowed in the printing room...that was ages ago...

[waterdragon]

mr b.caapi:

omg....i remember the palmolive gold ad too.....

does this mean im...."old"....

old is such a crude word. i prefer 'well aged', 'mature', 'elder statesman', well anything that puts a positive spin on it really. god there's gotta be an upside to advancing years hasn't there? next thing i'll be finding the dreaded grey bits, best not to look too hard.

on a more positive note, the more elderly i get the more my plant collection expands, the more i'm able to deal with aches and pains and lethargy and mental staleness - all through my right to self medicate.

[DreamingNagual]

"Your Soaking in it"

[Auxin]

I'm pleased by the results so far. Specifically its good to see that sofar noone here considers it a purely recreational thing (I would not have been dissapointed if a few people thought it was, but sofar noone does). I had the misfortune of checking out some of the other entheogen message boards and most of them seem to be populated by mindless stoners who can not even conceive of drugs being anything but recreational (yet they still use the word entheogen as if they know what it means). Another thing that bugs me about those sites is all the people who try to 'teach' chemistry when they clearly dont even have a valid highschool chemistry education, but thats another rant.

Torsten, you done good. The community you built here is something to be proud of, and naturally everyone here deserves a hell of a lot of credit too

Anyway, the polls are still open and dont be swayed by anything people say- after all polls are best when people are honest.

[gerbil]

"If legal should its purchace be limited to people 18 and above? "

In what form are you meaning?

Anything in relation with salvia divinorum, or dried/fresh leaves and extracts?

For purely ornamental purposes, personally i can't see a restriction. Growing plants shouldn't be restricted to age groups...use is another issue

[Auxin]

"Growing plants shouldn't be restricted to age groups...use is another issue"

Yeah, ornamentals shouldnt be restricted if its just for ornamentals. But you know the government, they'd say a signifigant number of those who grow it use it and fresh plants can be used as a drug just by chewing, so it would end up being the sale of any S. divinorum product that would be restricted. Not surprizing, I wouldnt think 12 year olds could buy live tobacco plants, and I dont think anyone can legally grow 'active' marijuana as a ornamental. There are exceptions though, like poppies- so I dont really know what would happen. I would vote for selling the live plant as an ornamental to anyone provided no mention of use is made. Anyway, not selling entheogen-intended sally products to minors doesnt mean it would be illegal for minors to use it, it would just make getting it harder (a 6 year old can legally smoke tobacco, but noone can legally sell it to them- thus making supporting an addiction harder)

[nabraxas]

was suprised 5 said it should be illegal.

i had trouble answering that question on the grounds that in pure principle i don't believe in 'the rule of law', so in principle it makes no difference (i used to laugh at the anarchists pushing for the legalisation ov cannabis).

in the end i voted yes, because in practice i'd object to going to jail on a catagory 9 posession offence for it- if i were in that boat.

could anyone say why they voted for it to be illegal?

[John_Barleycorn]

I think I went for the "don't know" option on legality on the grounds that the question wasn't specific enough. If legality means selling the dried product as a consumer item with the usual exorbitant government excise take, then I don't want it. I'd rather have legalisation of the growing plant, and decriminalisation or maybe illegality of the product (struggling here with the issue of discriminating against the botanically challenged in the community).

As for entheogens vs. recreationals, I'll draw some flack by saying that I don't completely get it. I assume the principle is that if you use something which makes you trip to a greater or lesser extent, and accompany that usage with suitable rituals, then you are doing the entheogenic thing? Out with stimulants and central nervous system depressants, unless these are enough of a deleriant that you go somewhere else? Out with synthetic substances, unless of course these are hallucinogenic on some level? I could probably drive a truck through that sort of sentiment if I put my mind to it, but let's not go there.

[Auxin]

"As for entheogens vs. recreationals.... I assume the principle is that if you use something which makes you trip... and accompany that usage with suitable rituals, then you are doing the entheogenic thing?"

The way I think about it is that its not the rituals that make the difference between recreational and entheogenic, its the intent. If you just want to get fucked up and see eye candy, its recreational- even if you have a ritual, but if you do it with the intent of some spiritual or philosophical revalation, enlightenment, purification, or divine connection then its entheogenic.

The outer attributes do not define it. Put a criminal in the clothes of a spiritual leader and he will still be a criminal, put a spiritual leader in the clothes of a criminal and he will still be a spiritual leader.

[coin]

..and if you pressure someone for long enough that they should look and behave a certain way, and make them feel looked down upon, perhaps outwardly they'll conform..

a ritual can come down custom, or any sort of typical behaviour..habit basically..

what of the recreational user who has no intent on religious/philosophical revelation but consistently finds it..? perhaps what makes that person spiritual is that they integrate and apply it..despite the possible necessity of having to compromise their own ego and it's inherent resistance

why should wanting to get fucked up and see eye candy be merely recreational? and you express that in such a disparaging way.. "fucked up" and "eye candy" ..well, that's just language and it seems you're trying to trivialise those things, as if the experience of stepping outside the box (fucked up), enjoying oneself (for kicks) and being a visionary (eye candy) for a couple hours isn't an amazing phenomenon in itself..

maybe it's not you, but i do get the impression, that people like you with these attitudes feel they should bully others (through passive persuasion and using particular forms of condescending language, as above) into using these substances in the "right" or valid way, so that it has a better reflection on the "entheogenic community" .. it's just about keeping up appearances.

and auxin, with your spiritual/religious beliefs, and the conflict you must (have) perceive[d] there, it's easy to understand why you'd be so insistent on clarifying your intentions, and the acceptable way..both to others, the community, and society as a whole, but also to yourself.

it seems like you just dont wanna get lumped with the ignorami, lest our oppressive society find it difficult to differentiate.

don't you see how you stretch your religious interpretations to suit yourself..quoting the dhammapada as if you can use that as a basis for a code for the acceptable use of entheogens..regarding the fifth precept..it's partly about transcending desire, and turning inwardly, non-dependently..using an external catalyst, what an extremely material form of, or key to spiritualism.. surely the paradox is acknowledged, but you gotta accept it, instead of playing intellectual games with yourself and others. that's the problem with intelligent users of 'entheogens'..they may have clear perception and self knowledge at times, but for the smart guys, self-deception comes easy.

at least recreational users are straight forward and honest without pretensions. entheogenic users, i think, often times, they're trying to convince themselves that they're not the run-of-the-mill hedonist..can you not see that in yourself? and if you can, stop trying so hard to distinguish, and draw that line.

[nabraxas]

whoa boys!- not buying into that, except- is MJ a spiritual or recreational drug?

john- i guess i should have voted 'don't know' too. & i agree, the idea ov a bleached to fu*k, taxed to the max- 'divinorum' 25 pack, a la tobacco- with huge tax evasion penalties for 'home production' sucks.

[Auxin]

Hey, I never said recreational drug use was bad. I was just trying to say how I differentiate the two. When I spoke a little harshly about the other sites where the people there were only interested in getting fucked up, the thing that bothered me was their disrespect- not that their use was recreational.

"don't you see how you stretch your religious interpretations to suit yourself"

I dont strech anything, and I dont selectivly interpret to suit myself. Just me trying to find the right path (I never claimed to be a strict theravada monk, Hell I never claimed to be 100% buddhist- I just refer to buddhism allot because it is (by far) the closest thing to my religion that has been written down and well examined).

"regarding the fifth precept..it's partly about transcending desire, and turning inwardly, non-dependently..using an external catalyst, what an extremely material form of, or key to spiritualism.."

Yes the fifth precept is very much about transcending desire (and maintaining mindfulness), thats why I'm not very much into recreational intoxication- thats why I haven't drank alcohol in years, it screws over my mindfulness and makes commiting unskillful acts far to easy while only providing temporary (and trivial in my opinion) sensory pleasure that distracts me from the important things. And NO, I dont consider entheogens a 'key to spiritualism' at all. For me what they are is a introspective tool that can sometimes be used to break down prejudices and help one to admit truth to themselves that they have a habit of ignoring, amoung other things. They are a risky thing, you can get clarity if your mindfull, logical, and anylitical or you can get delusion just as easy if your not careful and dont maintain a clear logical mind more often than not.

I never said buddhism encourages use of entheogens, I just said for me proper use aint no sin.

AND I never said my path is the best path, just my path. You mentioned my occational Buddha quotes- heres another: 'there are many paths up the mountain of enlightenment, but at the top all paths converge'.

"at least recreational users are straight forward and honest without pretensions."

Not exactly, thats another thing that annoyed me. People that were clearly only using it for fun (I'm not saying thats bad) pretended the opposite thus making those who truly use it as an entheogen look to most people like they are just recreational users that are better at talking.

DAMN COIN, did I touch a nerve or something?

Its getting a little hot in here!

[coin]

raw nerve? nah, it's nothing

just had a weird day

you say you're not into recreational intoxication, but as others are asking, what is that? does that mean intoxication without intent? or some sort of invalid or impure intent? so, by whose standards?

you could have as much spiritual intent as one could muster, and still come up with zilch in the end..at this stage, you either make it work, by filtering your experience through dogma or your own 'spiritual' mindset (been there), or just have fun (recreation?) and observe what you get - no expectations.. think about that word anyway.. Re-Creat[e]-ion

maybe recreational use, is usage that acts as a diversion (unmindful..and you mention distraction/sensory entertainment) while spiritual use is about drawing closer to more clearly perceiving reality (mindful) ?? that what you're saying?

it pisses me off the way people quote from their books, then stretch it over their own persistence of craving and aversion and self ignorance. one example being a devout yet carnivorous christian who interprets "thou shalt not kill" in a way that suggests this 'commandment' was lazily conceived.. that it somehow reads "thou shalt not kill thy fellow man" or "thou shalt not murder" .. when it seems perfectly obvious...but then there's a plethora of intellectual wankery & work-arounds and argument about interpretation

your perception of other people's disrespect only offends you because of the value you place within these substances...there's no inherent value, it's just more kalapas

people who only use it for fun, but feign some spiritual aspect..what i'm saying is that, yeah, some of that's ego, some of it's the pressure and bullying they feel.

anyway..sorry..i think we agree on a lot of points...maybe you feel differently *shrugs*

[Auxin]

"your perception of other people's disrespect only offends you because of the value you place within these substances...there's no inherent value"

I agree, abso-damn-lutely. We as sentient beings create our own sense of value, beauty, etc. None of that exists without someone to create such perception, and perception is different for everyone, thats how its supposed to be.

Oh, and I said/meant I'm not very into recreational useage- thats not to say I dont do it, I just try not to do it all the time and I keep away from ones that really cause a psychological or physical hinderance for me (like alcohol).

I'm not preachin, and I'm not saying there is something wrong with recreational drug use (too much cultural/social relitivism in me to be that arrogant). I'm just sayin' how things work in my brain.

"it pisses me off the way people quote from their books, then stretch it over their own persistence of craving and aversion and self ignorance."

I dont like that either, and I try not to do that. When I catch myself doing that I try to correct it.

[nabraxas]

". one example being a devout yet carnivorous christian who interprets "thou shalt not kill" in a way that suggests this 'commandment' was lazily conceived.. that it somehow reads "thou shalt not kill thy fellow man" or "thou shalt not murder" .. when it seems perfectly obvious..."

i am under the impression that a closer translation ov the original hebrew is "you will not take life"- which seems even more plain in intent. the dalai lama & his tibetan buddhists, along with a majority ov hindus have similar semantic fun, by claiming it ok to eat meat as long as they didn't kill it. virtually all the meat butchers in the subcontinent are muslim.