Was Hitler a saint?

[Guest Warrioe-Sage]

Was Hitler a saint?

Was he choosen by the holy church of rome to invade Russia when it discided to break way from

the church ?

heard of the gold that was hidden in Nazi trains that where give by the queen and vatican to the third reich ?

A would-be liberator?

Didn't he attempt to liberate Russia that was ruled by the Communists who killed millions of their own people?

Didn't he take his nation that had been crushed by the western allies and rebuild it?

Saint to the Jews ?

Is the holocaust the reason Israel exists ?.

isn't Hitler the founder of Israel ?

Wasn't he vegetarian and kind to animals and children?

was he any less of a fascist than those that rule over us today?

Our Gulags are democratic we are told; Hitler's concentration camps were not democratic. But is there really much difference?

CAN YOU SEE HIM AS A SAINT!?(DOES GOD!?)

Was Hitler a saint or a tyrant?

[No_One]

Get real, Saints act out of love and compassion sharing what they know in hope people will hear what they have to say - they don't go on a meth fueled racist killing spree forcing people to obey while using lies and propaganda to get them to think what you want them to think.

[reptyle]

whose the feather you wanna weight him against? yeah. lets be the dogs that drag him to the scales. just for a laugh.

whilst where at it, is there anything we can learn from Paris Hiltons free wheeling hyperdimensional penetration? she seems to know whats she's about, unrelentling advertising of her avatar, is that a threat to your advertising?

ma__at.bmp

ma__at.bmp

ma__at.bmp

[Greeny]

Please remember that hitler did inject methamphetamine 3 times daily

I have yet to meet anyone that takes that much speed whom i would classify as a "saint"

And yes hitler did love animals but seeing as he tested the poison he used to kill himself on his beloved german shepard Blondi sais to me that he his not very compassionate to animals at all.

Clearly hitler was a man diluded from heavy drug use and most proberbly quite psychotic before drug use he is no saint just a nazi junkie

[botanika]

Hitler was a failed artist. He started with painting, then sculpture, architecture and finally social reform. His stakeholders, supporters, oppressors, war pressures and drugs all contribuded to his actions. He is a personified symbol made by all of us because to reference evil we need co-ordinates, not just a lone 'HITLER' longitude. He represents an attitude within us all taken to extreme.

[nabraxas]

While it is true that Hitler's doctors put him on a vegetarian diet to cure him of flatulence and a chronic stomach disorder, his biographers such as Albert Speer, Robert Payne, John Toland, and others, have attested to his liking for ham sausages and other cured meats.

i think the real question should've been

"Is Warrioe-Sage trolling?"

[gomaos]

Hitler a saint?

Sure.

And Bush is a great humanist.

And Howard Australia's best ever crime minister.

And Bin Laden a better idol for the young than the beatles.

Sure.

And I'm the Pope.

[Μορφέας]

TroOoOoOOlllLLLllllllling? He did great things, Yet im my oppinon were quite evil

Edited December 4, 2006 by tepa

[Lono]

Warrioe-Sage,

Well done mate!

Awesome topic.

I don't believe in god/saints so to me its a moot point. Dead people are dead people, and thats not nice at all.

Whats very very interesting is that nobody seems able to rebut your actual points, just add additional information to support their veiw that Hitler was irrefutably evil/crazy.

I mean if the guy was whacked on Ice towards the end that might even suggest that without that influence, the holocaust may never have come to its final solution/conclusion

interesting topic to think about but I'm not weighing in with an opinion.

let the games begin...

[Guest Warrioe-Sage]

the original question was not intended as a question.it was intended as an exposition.(expose your position)!?hehe!

In a way the question could be seen as a statement.(DOES GOD ASK QUESTIONS!?)hehe!!CAN YOU SEE HIM AS A SAINT!?(DOES GOD!?).and this is the stumbling stone seen thru out the bible.either you have usurped gods right to judgement or you are trying to evade the work of the cross outa fear.i will save myself and everyone else in the process of elimination or i will trust god to do it all.if it's popular to hate or dispise hitler i will fall in line and comply.and by the way!the fact of the matter is..........the new reich is always morphing and improving it's odds!?what's a reich!?a conspiracy to improve the human race by intervention of a quick and deadly application of short sighted reactionary ideas driven by fear and greed.all due to the human nature of love is blind and fear/greed is to easily learned!?take the war on liberalism.it is short sighted and reactionary and will cause tons of suffering for no GOOD reason!!call it the new riech!?and all based on the same/and improved lies that made the old reich popular.and the morphing can be seen for instance in the failure of that famous reich for rejecting the church.THIS MAY BE THE ONE THING that caused it's DEMISE!?but as we can see the new reich has made the CHURCH a CENTERPIECE!?now that's american ingenuity if ya ask me!?we did give all the good german scientists/WHO ELSE a nice place/home here right!?hehe!!just askin!?

my question is mad, even shocking; but it's not the question that is shocking, it's the fact you probably have never asked it that's strange.

Much of our thinking is controlled by others; certain ideas are permitted and others strictly disallowed.

Then we also create the same limitation for ourselves, insisting on silly rules and ideas that bind us. The rules that surround religion and spirituality are typical Necker's prisons, which attempt to drive us like sheep via conformity and fear into the back of the box.

The idea that God insists on lots of excessive rules is rather silly, for God is love and love is liberation. Imposing rules on people is a form of hate. It's the camp commandant exercising his or her power.

Our world is obsessed with black and white. The media sells it all the time, good guys, bad guys. Our people—good, nice; other people—not so nice, a bit smelly, keep them out.

Members of the golf club—nice, exclusive, special. Nonmembers—not so special; in fact a lower social order, allowed in only under certain very controlled circumstances. Our church—good people, guaranteed to be saved by God.

Other churches—heathens, ugly, bad, not as special and selected as us. When we label people we lock them into the box. We also do it to ourselves all the time. In yearning for things we continually affirm we haven't got the things we yearn for. In defining yourself you exclude all the things you are not. In other words, to truly feel a sense of the eternal you have to be nothing, and so you become everything.

In being something and needing things you affirm you are very finite. Nothing is black or white; no one is completely innocent or totally guilty.

The murderer might be guilty in the sense he or she committed the crime, but they may be also be innocent in the sense that they were abused and beaten repeatedly as a child and hurting people is all they were taught. The victim may seem innocent, but what darkness is hidden away deep within them that pulled the murderer to them, we don't know about. For the most part, there is only grey.

can you really decide about anything that you have no direct experience or knowledge of? The answer is you can, but you'd often be in error. Even the situations in life you have experienced firsthand may have been clouded by your perception of events because of your agenda.

So all opinion is framed in perceptional definitions and limitations. What you know is defined mostly by what you don't know; what you perceive is limited by all the things you can't perceive.

Be equitable and offer a kind word and a soft eye to everyone and try not to judge people, because you don't know most of the time, do you?

If you judge harshly, then one day you will also be judged harshly. Be soft and be open and Necker your mind to the other side, even if what you see is not to your liking. You can always Necker back. It's a good habit to look at the alternative perspective. It opens you up and gives you a more infinite view of self, and it also teaches you to be less judgmental and to learn about your life and reality.

But you say, Hitler killed a lot of people. Well not as many as the Russians did, and when the allies killed ten million was that the act of good guys, or were they just butchering people to sustain the western elite's status quo, sacrificing the blood of their people and their enemies for a system based on power and control that disenfranchises ordinary people?

"Well, history says Hitler was a bad guy", but who wrote the history?t!?hehe!!just askin!?

Didn't the victors write it, and was anyone distorting facts or lying?

I personally think Hitler was a tyrant. But I have no first-hand evidence to support my view, as I have only other people's opinions to go on.

But was he any less of a fascist than those that rule over us today?

Our governments imprison people without trial or with false evidence; they execute people, assassinate others, make war, seize assets and effectively imprison their citizens economically and politically by milking them endlessly, while exercising absolute surveillance and control over almost every activity.

A million people a year die in the western world from poverty, illness and despair because they are unable to cope with the rules of our modern society, which in effect is a prisoner of war camp.

I think Hitler was a tyrant, but I don't know that he was. I wasn't alive, I have no first hand information and you can't trust history books.

You can't properly answer that questions, as you don't know if the information you have is part of the story, or all of the story.

The fact is, as much as we might protest, none of us can ever know. Our perception is too finite and it's often based on bogus information, and we don't know what evil was in the minds and souls of Hitler's victims. How do we know that Hitler wasn't sent by God to sort out the Russian Communist Party and the European elite?t!?hehe!!just askin!?

Perhaps God saw how nasty our egocentric societies would become, and he-she-it decided to have a little clean-up campaign, so that our societies wouldn't become quite as nasty quite as quickly. The weird thing is you can't say.

Only God knows. The accused in court may be guilty, but he or she is often an innocent child as well. Can you execute an innocent child and not be a party to the same crime of murder?!?hehe!!just askin!?

It's not all black and white. grey is the color of choice in heaven. "I don't know" is the correct answer to God's survey. Black and white is a very dangerous game for it allows us to hide our crimes under a cloak of righteousness. But worse than that, it allows us to set ourselves up as would-be gods, dispensing justice in our minds with no real facts, or holding cut and dry opinions as truth, which often turn out to be lies manufactured for us by others, as in the example of Pearl Harbor.

So Was Hitler a Saint??!?hehe!!just askin!?

[MORG]

Awesome topic.

I don't believe in god/saints so to me its a moot point. Dead people are dead people, and thats not nice at all.

Whats very very interesting is that nobody seems able to rebut your actual points, just add additional information to support their veiw that Hitler was irrefutably evil/crazy.

I don't know about that dude. I think you're over-intellectualising.

The man was deluded.

Come on. Let's think about this rationally. Hitler believed in the superiority of one group of people justifying the extermination of another group. It's really quite simple.

Saint

1. any of certain persons of exceptional holiness of life, formally recognized as such by the Christian Church, esp. by canonization.

2. a person of great holiness, virtue, or benevolence.

3. a founder, sponsor, or patron, as of a movement or organization.

4. (in certain religious groups) a designation applied by the members to themselves.

–verb (used with object)

5. to enroll formally among the saints recognized by the Church.

6. to give the name of saint to; reckon as a saint.

"The perpetrator behind the 20th Century's most infamous genocide is revered by the Church as a person of great holiness and virtue".

Nope. No. That's just wrong.

[Anodyne]

Hitler believed in the superiority of one group of people justifying the extermination of another group. It's really quite simple.

I might be wrong here, but I thought that Warrioe-Sage was saying, not that Hitler was a saint, but that there are plenty of wrongs in the world & to hold up one man as the epitome of "evil" is ridiculous. Go to wikipedia and look up "eugenics". Or read Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man. Nazi Germany wasn't the only time and place to discriminate people on the basis of their genes. The US sterilised people who scored low on IQ tests (which as far as I can make out after 2 years of Psych at uni, mainly test the person's ability to be white & take IQ tests, rather than their intelligence) until the 1960s, often without their knowledge. Those who weren't sterilised could be prevented from marrying. This went for the mentally ill as well - in a time when homosexuality was considered a mental illness by psychologists (it was removed from the DSM in 1974). Other countries had similar programs.

No, of course Hitler wasn't a saint, but just how much worse was he than our current leaders, or our past ones that have shaped the world we live in now? Is it worse to kill a million people, or to place trade restrictions which cause hundreds of millions to live in starvation-level poverty? Is it worse to bomb a town, or to spray the whole valley with herbicide? Our current political leaders & corporate powers might not be so direct, but they are still fucking other people over because they can. Because of their "superiority". People die from mine cave-ins, from heavy-metal poisoning, from dysentery, & starvation. They die in factories & forests & coups. Just so the "superior race" can have shiny cars & soft toilet paper.

Ok, so I'm over-simplifying, and I've used some pretty random examples in there, but you do get my point? I think many people (though certainly not all) these days have given up on white supremacy. Racial superiority & military might have been replaced with, well, shitloads of money & military might. But people are still dying. Not necessarily because of their race, but because they're poor.

I think people stir up a lot of shit about the past sometimes simply to distract from the present. Watch Howard or Costello sometime when they're getting harassed about something. Give it 2 minutes and they'll be saying "but 17 years ago the Labor government did this...". It might not be relevant, or even true, but it gets people thinking about something else, rather than what the Liberal government is doing now. In fact, come to think of it, that's how they won the last election...

So yeah, research Hitler if you like. Find out what he ate & drank & who his friend were & what his favourite position was. Collect stamps. Watch trains. Do whatever the fuck you like. But if you're interested in history, and in right & wrong, why not look at all the shit happening right now, that affects you a hell of alot more than a dead speed freak, that you might actually be able to change.

[Μορφέας]

I hope the barstad really does get a pineapple shoved up his arse like in 'little mikey' (or 'little micky'?). He did evil things

Edited December 4, 2006 by tepa

[wandjina]

He also had one testicle and King Kong was his favourite film.

Whats very very interesting is that nobody seems able to rebut your actual points, just add additional information to support their veiw that Hitler was irrefutably evil/crazy.

Its not that no one is able, more likely that no-one can be bothered...which isn't particularly interesting in my mind. WS often makes provocative posts that sometimes lead to animated discussions. I suspect that for many this one's just too blatant

I am a little concerned re your comment that Hitler having been evil/insane is merely a 'view' that in some sense needs support.

Such rhetoric is reminiscent of those who criticise certain 'views' of the Holocaust : I.e... that it occurred, and that at least 6 million Jews, in addition to millions of members of other minority groups including Poles, Serbs, Romanies, Soviet military POWs, Russians, Slavs, homosexuals, ppl of african descent, communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, the mentally and physically disabled, freemasons, Eastern Christians and Jehovahs witnesses, perished...To say nothing of torture, rape, inhumane experimentation and inumerable other abuses.

Some ppl question that this occurred, or accuse survivors or 'Zionists' and other parties of exaggerating etc, which i think is ridiculous.

The holocaust, as with some other tragedies, may be used for political leverage...but this doesnt mean these events did not occur.

Relative to other tyrants and periods in history, Hitler and nazi Germany may not be unique...but I do not think there is any question that he was a deluded madman who commited unspeakably evil acts.

Unless of course you prescribe to WS' philosophy and have zero trust in recorded history....or believe that grey is the new white.

Edited December 4, 2006 by wandjina

[MORG]

I might be wrong here, but I thought that Warrioe-Sage was saying, not that Hitler was a saint, but that there are plenty of wrongs in the world & to hold up one man as the epitome of "evil" is ridiculous.

Then why didn't he just say so?

I agree with your post Anodyne, apart from the above quote.

And maybe the reason Hitler gets talked about so much as the epitome of "evil" is because we are bombarded with him in school, many of our recent ancestors fought in WW2 and he's on the Discovery channel every day.

Quiz your average 18 year old and many more would know who Hitler is compared to those who know of Pol Pot or Idi Amin.

Adolf Hitler is the pop-icon poster-child of genocide.

[ballzac]

Has anyone seen a film called Mr. Death? It's about a guy called Leuchter who built execution devices for a living and considered himself an expert on such things. He was asked to give evidence at the trial...actually, I'll let wiki explain it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_A._Leuchter

Good movie though. Strangely, for all this guys shortcomings, it's hard not to kinda like him.

But yeah, six million is a lot of people...so is five hundred thousand (a very conservative estimate of the number of civilian deaths in iraq caused directly by american and allied attacks). It doesn't matter if it is not genocide, if you go into a war with the knowledge that a large number of innocent people will die then you have that blood on your hands.

Hitler ran a better economy that our government, and he also killed a lot more people. Does that cancel itself out? I suppose it depends on how important you believe a human life to be.

I do believe with others that hitler is not necessarily any worse than other megalomaniacal, genocidal leaders. As morg put it, he "is the pop-icon poster-child of genocide."

[Guest Warrioe-Sage]

Then why didn't he just say so?

I agree with your post Anodyne, apart from the above quote.

And maybe the reason Hitler gets talked about so much as the epitome of "evil" is because we are bombarded with him in school, many of our recent ancestors fought in WW2 and he's on the Discovery channel every day.

Quiz your average 18 year old and many more would know who Hitler is compared to those who know of Pol Pot or Idi Amin.

Adolf Hitler is the pop-icon poster-child of genocide.

Where did I say Hitler was a Saint ?

I said I think Hitler was a tyrant, but I don't know that he was. I wasn't alive, I have no first hand information and you can't trust history books.

[MORG]

I wasn't alive, I have no first hand information and you can't trust history books.

You're right in that the world exists in shades of grey.

Healthy skepticism is a very worthy attitude.

However there is a point where excess skepticism becomes paralyzing.

Edited December 4, 2006 by MORG

[The Dude]

However there is a point where excess skepticism becomes paralyzing.

That it does, but ws doesnt seem to be overly skeptical as he beleives hitler was a tyrrant (but is unsure).. I love how we're all discussing what ws says and thinks and stuff

Erm ran a good economy?.. Yeah It's called mobilising your whole country into a weapons making war factory and taking the world to war, then reaping the rewards.

Sure fire way to get a country out of economic collapse - go to war.. Track record of the United States shows this.. they are nothing but a war machine.. that IS their economy.. surely the world is over it.. I don't see why the economic opposition that is Europe and Asia and well the whole world doenst just slap the fuckers in the face and say enough is enough.

Maybe its the illuminati fuckers pulling the strings still.. creating this hillariously depressing drama for us all. I gotta get in contact with these synchronicity manifesting fuckers that can do the whole pandimensional travel thing.. we need some help here and some metaphysical re-arranging of the props on this stage would be good.

[wandjina]

Re skepticism and first hand experience/information...this can get silly.

My first hand experience/observation is that the Earth is flat. Whilst I have seen the horizon curve slightly from a plane, it could just be that the Earth is convex. I have never been in orbit or viewed Earth from space, I have only seen photos and have been lead to believe (educated) via school, texts (books) etc that Earth is a sphere orbitng the sun with the other planets in our solar system.

But I do not have first hand information regarding this, I have not seen the sphere of our planet first hand, nor the spheres of the points of light that move in the night sky...I have never seen Jupiter except in books, or in documenatries etc. How can I be sure this isnt fiction? That the earth really is how I experience it my day-to-day life, common sense would seem to indicate it is indeed flat. I only know it is spherical because of what i have been told or read or watched.

Also I have never seen photosynthesis in action, never seen chlorphyll doing its thing first hand...how do i know that what I see in the microscope is a chloroplast...except via what i have been taught regarding the function and structure of these organelles?

Likewise, creationists believe what they believe based on what they have been taught (and have the balls to call it science!).

True, we can deconstuct science and scientific knowledge, likewise the human or social sciences...but I would caution against some varieties of radical relativism or extreme skepticism. Some ideas are better than others IMO, just as some histories are better than others. IMO

It is often said that history is written by the victors, but histories are revised, then later you may get the apologists etc etc...it is plastic, not the static entity it seems to be being portrayed as here. It is open to interpretation, and hence there are multiple histories (though of course some versions tend to dominate).

Consider Australian history...what my daughter is getting today is vastly different from the tripe we were fed in the early 1980s. The traditional account of captain cooks 'discovery' of Australia is not regarded in the way it once was. I for one would prefer she absorbs a more 'inclusive' version of events than what I, or my parents, were fed.

[spice]

He did some good things, made some mistakes, lost a war and has been slapped with alot of unfounded propaganda. Interesting how we never speak of the alied firebombing of dresden, starvation of post-war POWs, or the japanese unit 731 testing grenades, flamethrowers, biological weapons and surgical techniques on fully consious POWs. We NEVER hear about that, its always nazis did this and nazis did that, its a smoke screen designed to distract you from our own actions, and those of the japanese.

[wandjina]

yeah...bloody Japs!!!

Hitler is smoke screen to cover up what the Japs did eh? And what I/We have done? And who were Slobodan Milosevic, Pinochet, Nicolae Ceausescu, Pol Pot and Idi Amin covering for?

Beware the yellow peril!

[spice]

yeah...bloody Japs!!!

Hitler is smoke screen to cover up what the Japs did eh? And what I/We have done? And who were Slobodan Milosevic, Pinochet, Nicolae Ceausescu, Pol Pot and Idi Amin covering for?

Beware the yellow peril!

A knee jerk reaction. Nice . When is the last time you heard about Slobodan Milosevic/Pinochet/Nicolae/Ceausescu/Pol Pot/Idi Amin? Have you ever heard about unit 731 or Dresden? I guarantee you'll probably hear about hitler or nazis (mostly comparasons) at least once a week if you have any interest in current events.

[wandjina]

double post...

Edited December 5, 2006 by wandjina

[wandjina]

A knee jerk reaction. Nice tongue.gif.

So you're fighting fighting fire with fire eh? Jerk away!

I responded to your post because I thought it a simplistic and silly argument.

When is the last time you heard about Slobodan Milosevic/Pinochet/Nicolae/Ceausescu/Pol Pot/Idi Amin? Have you ever heard about unit 731 or Dresden?

To answer your questions, today and yes...respectively. Incidentally, my grandfather fought in PNG in WWII, and I've read quite extensively on the topic, including the part played by the 'Japs'. Everyone has heard about infamous Japanese torture techniques and, especially as Australians, that they treated their POWs with appalling cruelty is no secret. But if your read histories of the war in the pacific, if anything, macarthur was the real villian of the piece.

I guarantee you'll probably hear about hitler or nazis (mostly comparasons) at least once a week if you have any interest in current events.

No shit Sherlock! I don't own a TV, and avoid mainstream/tabloid media as much as possible, though I do read the broadsheets, left press and listen to the radio...I dunno what you're watching/reading/listening to, but it sounds pretty mainstream to me if you never hear references to these characters.

I suggest you switch from channel 10 'first at 5' to SBS news, maybe buy a newspaper once in awhile, and perhaps peruse some history books. Since you have seem to have such an interest in the topic I'd recommend 'Firestorm: The Bombing of Dresden 1945' edited by Paul Addison and Jeremy A. Crang - a collection of essays on the tragedy well worth a look.

Anyone who knows their history knows about the fire bombing of Dresden...its not the obscure piece of miliatry history you paint it to be.

But this crap about 'unfounded propaganda' makes you sound like a national fronter. Why do people feel they need to apologise for Hitler? Why would anyone want to salvage his reputation? Should we be barracking for poor old Marcos as well?

So what if he's the 'poster boy' for deranged tyrants...he was a deranged tyrant, even if he is used a tool by the PTB (powers that be).

Maybe you need to lobby for other despots and dictators to get the recognition they deserve?

btw, you may wanna google Ceausescu.