what's your favorite pornsite?

[Anodyne]

Lignocaine is injected with adrenaline and the flush is a common side effect if the dentist gets a blood vessel, difficult to avoid in the mouth but can be dangerous if enough lignocaine gets into circulation.

Ah true, I'd forgotten that - but it's not always used. The dentist didn't mention adrenaline when I quizzed her about what she was using , and nervousness, panic, & rapid heart-rate are also side-effects of lignocaine OD/sensitivity. I'm not saying it'd be common, as the % in those lubes is pretty low I think, but some people are especially sensitive - like coke, which some people are hypersensitive to - they can get strong effects from the amount needed to numb their eye! Also, if using it in lube for anal sex, the activity itself could increase the amount absorbed through tiny tears, or just as more blood vessels are stimulated to come to the surface.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Anodyne

[incognito]

damn straight!!!

[ballzac]

Certainly not my cup of tea, but if it's between two consenting adults, then I can't see what's wrong with it. It's not hurting anyone. I think what you're worried about Wandjina, is that it's coming from a sinister place, but is that necessarily so? Even if it is, people interested in that sort of roleplay have certainly found a harmless outlet for it.

But really, even though it is very hard to understand, if a person finds themselves sexually attracted to children (Not talking about planthelper here as there is nothing in his post to suggest that he fancies children) and refuses to act on their desires because they know that it is wrong to have sex with children, then I don't see a problem in that. In fact, they are denying themselves something that a lot of people wouldn't be able to, their sexual desires, and so really deserve credit for that. In reality, your children would be far better cared for by a babysitter who has sexual fantasies about children and never acts on them, than one who talks down to your children or treats them badly in another way. Of course if I knew that a particular person had sexual thoughts about children, I would never let them near a child, but in reality, is there anything truly wrong with these fantasies, or is it just a gut reaction that we have to something that we see as 'sick' and justified by the fact that they are immoral when acted out?

[Torsten]

I had a male friend who is 8 years younger than me and at 19 he kinda fell in love with me. He already had a history of finding older guys and was actually keen on finding someone who didn't just want to fuck a spring chicken, but who actually wanted to be a father figure to him. he wasn't my type and the situation got awkward and fizzled the friendship, but the point I am trying to make is that I am not sure what is wrong with such a relationship. Obviously my friend was looking for more than just a sugardaddy or a mature lover. He was actually looking for a father figure and sex games would have definitely escalated this concept to extremes.

Also, where do we draw the line at what age is acceptable and what is reprehensible. personally and in theory I like them young, but I can't see any sexual relevance in anyone who isn't at least a decent way through puberty [or as puberty is rather early these days I presume I am actually talking about post puberty]. So, until a couple of years ago the fact that I fancied 17 year olds would have been criminal if acted on, while now it is perfectly legal [the legal age of consent for gays was moved back to 16 in line with heterosexual age of consent].

Not that I'd actually ever would want to have sex with a 17 year old. They are generally too stupid, too immature and too inexperienced, 3 things that totally turn me off. But I am a very visual kinda guy and there is something overpoweringly erotic about spring chickens

This sort of thing can also come as a real surprise to oneself. My relationships with girls had always been around about my own age plus/minus 3 years. So it came as a bit of a shock to me that suddenly at age 25 I found myself totally infatuated with a guy just under 16. Personally I had no problem keeping my urges under control and didn't even tell him how I felt until he was 17 and a half, but I can see how this could become a real problem for other guys with less self control or a stronger sex drive.

So, I think when discussing sexual age issues we need to carefully differentiate the age groups we are talking about, as well as differentiating real urges from pretend games.

If regression games are really so problematic, and our society was really so ethical, then why is dress up pretend schoolgirl porn still one of the biggest sellers? I am not saying it's a good thing as really, I have no idea whether it may be saving lives or hurting them. But I think to simply toss dress up games in with real pedophilia is moralistic and short sighted. Surely we need to at least have some sort of differentiation between fantasising about say sexually active highschoolgirls and prepubescent girls? And surely we need to differentiate between playing games and having real urges.

It's a touchy topic, but such moralistic simplifications as touted here by some can't possibly explore the full scope.

[wandjina]

some valid point ballzac and Torsten.

Perhaps I am 'touting' some moralistic simplifications...or is it just that I have not expressed my point clearly enough, and it is being assumed my stance is simple?

But yes, I do get a gut reaction to notions of incest and pedophilia...and I think thats a natural response.

I really dont see a problem with ppl dressing up as schoolkids etc, thats not my argument at all, and not at all what I had in mind when I made tha post...but there's a big diff between role play and actual age regression. True, I find the idea of fucking my father disgusting, or even just imaging a lover to be my 'Daddy'...but thats my prerogative.

I've never known anyone personally who had these kinds of fetishes with a parent, but from the literature Ive read, such leanings would seem to suggest a history sexual abuse or unusual family dynamics. I, for one, would seek healing in that direction, but then perhaps such fantasies are part of healing in some sense?

On the other hand, feeding some desires may not be a good idea...would it really be advisable or acceptable for ppl who find children sexually attractive to watch child porn as long as they dont act on their impulses for real? Is that really harmless? Well, obviously not given that demand=supply (and sometimes visa versa), and child porn is, in my mind, evil.

I'm not bending on that one, thats one 'moral' I'll wave like a flag.

Back to regression, if one was to truly regress to the age of say 5 or 6 (in my mind a little girl), then adult notions of sexuality would not come into play. Children are sexual beings, but not in the same way that adults are.

Pedophiles are notorious for projecting their own desires onto their victims...many believe and perceive their objects of desire as feeling sexual in the way they do, or of seducing them/flirting, being deliberately provactive in an adult sense. This is dangerous. Some ppl with pedophilic tendencies experience their victims as willing participants, and some don't feel they've done anything immoral or wrong. They dont have the same moral compass as others who may never act on their impulses.

And I agree ballzac, ppl who deny such impulses should be commended.

A few I've heard of, and even know of through aquaintences, receive therapy, avoid stimuli (porn etc etc)...ie, they seek assistance and help. Of course this is to be applauded, and I have nothing but respect for ppl who make the effort.

Who knows, they may never have committed an offence even in the absense of treatment, but when it comes to pedophilia I think its better to be safe than sorry...wouldnt you agree?

To define 'little girl' (or boy) broadly I am thinking pre-prepubescent. A child in the true sense....not a fully grown woman in a school uniform, or a man in a nappy, or a teenager (though yes, drawing a line can be difficult...not all 16 yr old are 'adult' in that sense are they?) Thats a whole other ball game IMO.

To get into a few more details:

I think what you're worried about Wandjina, is that it's coming from a sinister place, but is that necessarily so?

Here in lies one of the probs...as I noted above, to some pedophiles there is nothing sinister about their intent at all. Most do not see or experience their activties as wrong in a moral sense...in fact, they may even be otherwise normal, friendly ppl who perceive themselves as having an inordinate love for children. The only reason some pedos behave as if their actviites are wrong are the legal implications, they dont want to get caught. Of course this is intertwined with the social stigma, and in this instance there's a reason for stigma dont you think? Pedophilia damages people, sometimes irrepairably.

Even if it is, people interested in that sort of roleplay have certainly found a harmless outlet for it.

My comments were directed more at regression actually....but we also have to take into consideration that many ppl would consider watching child porn harmless, as long as they dont actively participate.

I think that soemtimes there may be a fine line between getting off on porn that gives the impression of pre-pubescence, and attempts to reenact it in the real world. In some ppl this could fan the flames.

Rape happens, pedophilia happens, incest happens...I'm sure some of the perpetrators enjoy 'harmless' fantasising and 'role playing' too...like the good bloke and loving father who turns out to be a serial rapist, or the dutiful husband and teacher who molests the kids at school. You cant say theres no link between their 'surface' sexuality and the one they keep secret.

It is well known that for some ppl into particluar fetishes, the practises can become like an addiction. What got them off at the start becomes familiar and is no longer novel and exciting, and so they feel they need 'more' to get off...more intense, more bizarre, more extreme. For some tastes i cant see this being a problem, but if one were to get hooked on the idea of sex with children, isnt it possible that harmless role play could eventually lead some ppl to seeking out the real thing?

For soem ppl maybe its an outlet, but for others it might be a gateway.

I dont think an appetite for child-sex should be stimulated. I dont think it harmless.

But really, even though it is very hard to understand, if a person finds themselves sexually attracted to children (Not talking about planthelper here as there is nothing in his post to suggest that he fancies children) and refuses to act on their desires because they know that it is wrong to have sex with children, then I don't see a problem in that.

I still feel it better they recieve treatment to be on the safe side. What's the problem with that?

In fact, they are denying themselves something that a lot of people wouldn't be able to, their sexual desires, and so really deserve credit for that.

couldnt agree more...but i still hold that the behaviour in and of itself is inexorably linked to the fantasy. The fantasy is the root of the behaviour, and I for one feel it to be in the individuals interest to not indulge it. To redirect sexual energies, retrain oneself to find new fantasies.

In reality, your children would be far better cared for by a babysitter who has sexual fantasies about children and never acts on them, than one who talks down to your children or treats them badly in another way. Of course if I knew that a particular person had sexual thoughts about children, I would never let them near a child, but in reality, is there anything truly wrong with these fantasies, or is it just a gut reaction that we have to something that we see as 'sick' and justified by the fact that they are immoral when acted out?

What...so the choice of baby sitter is between a person who has pedo fantasies and a nazi nanny ...what kind of fucked up agency is this?

Your next point is worth noting though... regardless of what you really think/believe...you would never let them near a child.

Well, there you go...at the end of the day, we can agree that there are some risks not worth taking, some ppl/ tastes that we suspect are not safe, or at least not worth taking chances with.

Cannot the same be said for ppl with other fantasies involving harm? That theres the odd chance they might actually be capable, under the right conditions, of hurting someone or damaging themselves...even on a psycho-spiritual level? Even if they are not consciously aware or set out to?

I also feel that because Jono and I are parents, we share a perspective that neither you nor Torsten can truly understand. that there may be grown men (and women) out there that fantasise about having sex with our children is deeply disturbing, and I dotn give a rats arse what you say, that kind of energy makes me feel sick to the stomach...and I dotn want it anywhere near me or my baby.

Its an emotive issue...and rightly so IMO. This is a potentailly devastating threat to the health and happiness of our kids, childhood sexual abuse destroys lives...and i cannot, will not take it lightly.

In my opinion people with pedophilc tendencies should seek treatment, and thats that. It's not worth the risk, and nor is indulging fantasies, they shouldnt be fed.

But if adults posing as children is specifically your turn on, well thats a different story I suppose. Though I would still argue there's some potential connections there.

As is well known, pedophilia has alot to do with power and control (youth representing vulnerability amongst other things)...and can be part of a constellation of related psychic energies.

Edited December 2, 2006 by wandjina

[ballzac]

I certainly am not under any illusions that I know the answers to all these questions. My only motivation for even trying to figure it all out is that I wish to avoid condemning those who do not deserve it. In reality I feel that it is quite possible that every single being on earth deserves nothing but love, but I am definately not ready to let go of all my hate/fear yet. In the mean time, I would simply like to make sure I do not hurt those who do not hurt.

I definately agree with you that those who have sexual fantasies about children should seek proffessional help immediately to be on the safe side, and I will add that anyone who finds themselves crossing the line and acting innappropriately around children in even the mildest form should turn themselves in to the police, but I think we as a society need to take some of the responsibility for this not being done more often. I can certainly understand a person not wanting to reveal these facts about themselves. Think of how many homosexuals remain in the closet due to the stigma surrounding homosexuality. The stigma surrounding paedophiles is far greater. The point is, I believe while demonising those who destroy the lives of children, we may actually be making the world less safe for the very children we are trying to protect. Getting things out in the open is rarely a bad thing.

As for incest, it is usually assumed that incest is referring to sexual abuse of a minor, but I don't think this is always the case. I personally don't see anything wrong with consensual sex between two adults from the same family, in spite of its legal status. Like I said before, I don't want to be causing someone suffering unless they themselves have caused substantial suffering to others.

One thing I think we really need to change is the way paedophiles are dealt with by the legal system. Although men who abduct children are usually given long sentences, those who abuse a family member (who often get away with it for years) generally get a sentence of a year or two. How can we justify this as either punishment or protection of children? Really, there should be safeguards to make sure that any adult that abuses a child to a substantial degree, should never, ever be allowed around children again, and should be held in jail for a time proportional to the degree of the suffering they cause. Why do thiefs and frauds often get more jail time than paedophiles and other rapists? Are we so misguided as a society that we place money in higher regard than our children?

[Torsten]

I've never known anyone personally who had these kinds of fetishes with a parent, but from the literature Ive read, such leanings would seem to suggest a history sexual abuse or unusual family dynamics.

My friend was adopted, and even though he had had a caring family life, there were obviously issues with rejection etc.

Children are sexual beings, but not in the same way that adults are.

Hmmm, can't share that concept with you, sorry.

To define 'little girl' (or boy) broadly I am thinking pre-prepubescent. A child in the true sense....not a fully grown woman in a school uniform, or a man in a nappy, or a teenager (though yes, drawing a line can be difficult...not all 16 yr old are 'adult' in that sense are they?)

I think we're on the same page then.

we also have to take into consideration that many ppl would consider watching child porn harmless, as long as they dont actively participate.

Whenever kids are forced or coerced to do something sexual they are being hurt, so I can't see how kiddie porn could be harmless.

For soem ppl maybe its an outlet, but for others it might be a gateway.

Studies on S&M appear to confirm that such outlets may actually be gateways.

I still feel it better they recieve treatment to be on the safe side. What's the problem with that?

What treatment? Pedophilia has been shown to be pretty much untreatable. The only difference these days is that we have better monitoring. So, if treatments don't actually work in the long term, then one has to wonder if a pretend outlet isn't the more productive option. Point is that our penal system isn't making much of a difference.

I also feel that because Jono and I are parents, we share a perspective that neither you nor Torsten can truly understand. that there may be grown men (and women) out there that fantasise about having sex with our children is deeply disturbing, and I dotn give a rats arse what you say, that kind of energy makes me feel sick to the stomach...and I dotn want it anywhere near me or my baby.

Imgine how most parents feel about their 16 year old boys. Probably quite the same as you just stated. Yet it is totally legal fro them to have gay sex. Even with a much older guy.

Gut reactions aren't often the best guide in these matters and have little to do with accepted norms, legal norms and what YOU have control over as a parent. Surely most parents would assume that their 16 year old boy doesn't have the right to decide to have gay sex with whoever he choses, yet he does.

Its an emotive issue...and rightly so IMO. This is a potentailly devastating threat to the health and happiness of our kids, childhood sexual abuse destroys lives...and i cannot, will not take it lightly.

No one is saying it should be taken lightly. I just think that the sort of moralism jono brinch to this discussion is little different to a similarly hot topic in society..... 'drug are evil, let's call the feds'. I think we can be a bit more mature than that.

As is well known, pedophilia has alot to do with power and control (youth representing vulnerability amongst other things)...and can be part of a constellation of related psychic energies.

I am glad you defined the age brackets we are differentiating here, as I don't think power and control have anything to do with post puberty youngsters. Quite the opposite. The guy I was infatuated with had me wrapped around his little finger for years

All in all I actually think we we are on the same page in this debate - even though I am not a parent.

[planthelper]

i haven't read all the replies but i felt i had to right away vent my feelings.

i can understand jonos and wanjinas feelings and i had the same thoughts when a woman (who was 2 years older than me) started calling me daddy and regressed in age. i felt i can't do this... but than i realised that those sessions were very healing for this woman, as a fact she would always feel the pain and when we did the play it was like a place were nothing hurts for her. with time this abreaction becomes a very powerfull healing tool. again for people who don't need this healing the whole thing feels, yuk, but i assure you it has nothing to do with a father daughter sexuall relationship, as a daddy i take care of my baby to the uppermost degree, i know her better than herselfe and she feels true love, in a form she never experienced when she grew up. the daddy helps her to re writte her history book, and as such the woman is able to heal herselfe.

SO IT'S THE TOTAL OPPOSITE OF WHAT WAS HINTED ON,

DADDY HEALS CHILD SEXUAL TRAUMAS!!!!!

DADDY'S DOM, BY KENDRA, FROM WETHERBED:

I mentioned the term Daddy Dom in a chat room the other day and was greeted by a resounding Yuk! It got me thinking about the misconceptions surrounding this aspect of D/s. I realise most think that it involves a father/daughter relationship. That isn't quite true, Daddy/little girl is a much different level. I do not know if I can explain what I mean so I will simply talk about what a Daddy Dom is to me. First I should say that in my relationship my Dom is not my father, he is nothing like my father, and I have no need for him to replace my father. He is however my Daddy. We do not engage in age play specifically (beyond the occasional schoolgirl fantasy *s*) and our relationship is not based on any need to have sex with children.

I am always all woman, and always a very independent woman. He does have the ability to make me feel like a little girl, however, a very cherished and sometimes needy little girl. It is a feeling that I revel in, it is the safest place I have ever been, and it allows me the freedom to be all that I am without fear of reprisals. So what makes a Daddy Dom? First and foremost he loves his little girl. She is his prized possession. His eyes light up when she walks into the room and he takes great pride in her successes. After all, he helped to create her. She holds the most tender part of his heart and has the greatest power to hurt him. Seeing her hurt however is not something a Daddy Dom wants. He sees it as his job to protect her, both from the outside world and herself. He may love to cause her great pain in a scene, but he hates to be the one to hurt her emotionally. It hurts him to have to punish her, but he knows it is sometimes necessary.

This takes great strength on his part. It takes strength to control her, and to shape her to his needs and desires. It takes strength to be her confidant, her shoulder, and her anchor. It takes strength to let her out into the world when all he wants to do is hold her safe in his arms. And it takes strength to do what is necessary when she needs to be disciplined. A Daddy Dom knows the value of discipline, though at times his soft heart gets the best of him. He knows that in order for his little girl to be the best she can possibly be he must stand firm. He uses his experience in life and his knowledge of her to provide proper direction and punishment when the need arises. He knows this hurts her, and that tears at his heart, but he also knows it is for her own good.

A Daddy Dom provides something else that is very important to his submissive acceptance. She is safe in his arms because he knows her, everything about her, and he still loves her. When she goes to him she knows that this man knows all of her dirty little secrets and it doesn't matter. To him she is beautiful. Many of you may be asking what separates a Daddy Dom from any other Dom. In most cases very little. Hopefully they all provide love, strength, protection, discipline, and acceptance. I have heard Daddy Doms described as a kinder, gentler, Dom. I like that definition though I know it won't apply to all. I guess when it really comes down to it I can't explain it. There is something infinitely magical about a Daddy Dom. Perhaps it is something only a little girl can understand.

Daddy/little girl does not refer to the ages, real or pretend, of the participants. Nor does it imply closet desires. It refers to the environment that two people have created. A Daddy Dom is so named because of the qualities he possesses and the service he provides. So, what are these qualities? What is a Daddy Dom? A Daddy Dom wants to be the centre of your universe. He wants to be able to provide for you’re every need and care. But more than that he wants to be able to shape and mould you to the image he thinks you should become. He sees in you someone who, in his mind, can achieve a much higher, much greater status. He believes more in you than you believe in yourself. What he wants in return is to be able to bask in his image of you, the image he has created.

How does he achieve his goals? Through love, respect, and discipline. His love for his little girl goes without saying. He accepts every part of her and works to emphasise the good while improving the bad. He loves her as much for who she is as for who she will become with his guidance. It is this love that allows him to train her. He could not invest so much of himself in someone he did not love completely. This love would not be possible without respect. A Daddy Dom needs to feel great pride in his possession. He needs to know she can hold her own in the outside world and still submit to him. He holds the greatest respect for the gift she has given him and takes great pains to increase it's value. It is extremely important to him to know she can be with any man and she chooses to be with him.

He knows that this makes discipline a priority in their lives, more important than in some other D/s relationships. In order for the little girl to really trust she must know he means what he says. He must constantly deepen her respect for him. If he does not enforce discipline, this respect becomes a tenuous thing. If his submissive finds that she can manipulate him out of punishing her, she begins to lose respect and the ability to empower becomes impeded. He needs to empower her as much as he wants to possess her and it becomes increasingly difficult to be possessed by someone you do not respect. The discipline is also important when it comes to her protection, both from those outside the relationship and those within. He is the one who makes the decisions about how she will relate to the world in general and his discipline ensures that she follows these rules. I think most Doms have a bit of the Daddy in them, taking on the role of male authority figure in their submissiveness life and using their power to enrich that life. Daddy/little girl verbalises that feeling, and adds a dimension of warmth, caring, and ritual that it's participants crave.

[wandjina]

I still feel it better they recieve treatment to be on the safe side. What's the problem with that?

What treatment? Pedophilia has been shown to be pretty much untreatable. The only difference these days is that we have better monitoring. So, if treatments don't actually work in the long term, then one has to wonder if a pretend outlet isn't the more productive option. Point is that our penal system isn't making much of a difference.

yes, you are absolutely right...but i did recently read something about a novel therapy that seemed promising. Will try to track info down.

Also, an additional problem appears to be that the major perception of pedophilia is that its about sexual desire, when its not that simple. Sexual 'fetishes' do not evolve in a vacuum.

For instance, men given 'chemical castrations', for whom arousal is supposedly impossible, have been found to reoffend, even if they cannot function. Of course, there are many sexual practises that people find 'sexy' that do not involve intercourse or even physical contact...the point Im trying to make is that the reasons some ppl feel sexually attracted to children run very deep, beyond 'normal' sexual gratification, beyond the prusuit of climax.

Children are sexual beings, but not in the same way that adults are.

Hmmm, can't share that concept with you, sorry.

Actually, it's quite well documented.

I suspect it comes down to what one perceives as 'sexual'. Very young children play with their genitals because it feels good and is comforting. This is not the same as what it may mean for an adult to stimulate their own genitals.

Then of course there's 'doctors and nurses' and other such games....I remember playing them as young as 6...but of course it's all very innocent, and not to be confused with adult sexuality.

For parents, IMO its best to turn a blind eye...castigating children for this behaviour could be damaging.

That said...I have experienced one kid, a FOAF boy, who i had to keep my eye on. His father was a bit of a worry too though...quite aggressive, and Mum was withdrawn and browbeaten.

[planthelper]

gee reading your posts i understand that most of you are miles off from what age regression realy is.

it can't be compared with a fetish or a bloody shoolgirl fantasy, it doesn't have the hall marks of it.

i know i am born onto this planet to help woman who have been sexually abused as children, the age play and age regression is the secret garden, it participants are divine inner children, stopp soiling my inner child and the ones of my lady friends, my heart is pure as light, go away you bastards, stopp putting me down, and drawing lines to pedo stuff, now i'm crying, as most of you project ther own insecureties onto me.

[wandjina]

my heart is pure as light, go away you bastards, stopp putting me down, and drawing lines to pedo stuff, now i'm crying, as most of you project ther own insecureties onto me.

Im sorry if you're upset PH...but I, and others, are expressing our opinions. We aren't putting you down, its not personal.

Edit...also, your understanding/interpretation of regression and what it means appears quite narrow to me. Really depends what school of psychology one prescribes to, and whether the literature one refers to is scientific/scholarly or popular/lay.

Edited December 2, 2006 by wandjina

[planthelper]

my understanding of what age regression is, is maybe narrow, but at least i experienced it in realety and not just read of it in a book. when a person regresses in age it's something that this person is realy on the inside, if the same person role plays than it's just sort of an act.

i am capable of giving a lot of nurturing and love to people (and to plant's thats why mine grow so well) and i think it's very important to have this abilety if one engages in regressions, as one has to be able to provide the partner with what they missed out when they were children. some victims of child sexual abuse, carry there pain with them all the time, always, always, always.... so if a woman tells me, daddy you made my pain go away, it never happend like this before, than i know i have done a very good thing, and all your comments will not hurt me, as i know you, just can't relate to this, for various factors, and as i said before, i can understand, as this was my first reaction towards this thing, aswell.

as a fact ther are even still some areas wher i was asked to go, but could not.

i have children too, i baby sitted and changed nappies from 14 years of age onwards, i lissend to many womans stories about how there father or uncle abused them when they were little girls. i think i have more touch towards this subject than most of you.

what you think is up to you,

i know that i heal woman of there traumas,

and they tell me that i'm very, very good with that.

i sometimes removed pain and guilt after a few sessions, where other therapist failed for years.

i sometimes had to cry, and talk to others to debrief myselfe of all the pain i was told about, which was caused by child sexual abuse.

[incognito]

sorry bout insinuating ph, i have no idea what age regression is, and was a serious allegation, my humblest of apologies- as wandjina said its a parental instinct as u would know ph having children of ur own.

my final note- convicted pedophiles should be executed in my opinion.

not a lower crime.fark the slimy rockspiders.

[Anodyne]

So, until a couple of years ago the fact that I fancied 17 year olds would have been criminal if acted on, while now it is perfectly legal [the legal age of consent for gays was moved back to 16 in line with heterosexual age of consent].

Really - I had heard the hetero age-of-consent was 10, however, between age 10 & 18 (or was it 16?) people are only legally allowed to have sex with someone <2years younger or older than themselves. So a 12 & a 13-year old is OK, but 12 & 17 is not. This seems to me to be a pretty sensible arrangement - not that I think most 10-year-olds are physically OR mentally mature enough to be having sex, but for those who do, I think it's good to have a law to protect the from manipulative adults. In general that is, no doubt there are cases where people end up with a negative view of sex because they've had to learn with an equally inexperienced minor, and I've heard this used to argue for an older partner acting as a "teacher & mentor", to "introduce the 'student' to the joys of love-making", etc, etc.

I'm not sure where I stand on this - on one hand, I think it's pitiful that we aren't educated about sex (beyond the "this bit goes there, & make sure you put a condom on here" sort of thing) - I read about sexually open cultures, both real (was it the pre-missionary Tahitians?), and fictional (the Bene Gesserit in Frank Herbert's "Dune" books), and think "goddamn, why wasn't I taught like that?". In almost every other field, we pass learnings down thru generations, so that each new generation doesn't have to start from scratch - why not sex?

On the other hand, I think the one-on-one teacher/student set-up would be open to all sorts of manipulations & abuses, especially as the older person would generally have more experience at such power-play, & might be seen as an authority figure by the younger person.

The descriptions of successful sexual education that I've read were of the mature women in the town educating the pubescent girls (not their own family, I don't think) - when a girl reached puberty she (& maybe a friend) was sent to a friend of the family to be taught how to fuck well - how to voluntarily control all the muscles involved, & so on. I believe the idea was to make sex more fun for herself, and also her training made it easier for her to find a husband - a dowry of sorts. I don't know what happened with the men, but anyway, this sort of sex-ed sounds like a wonderful idea to me. The only equivalents that I can think of in our society are tantra/kundalini & similar types of yoga - that basically teach a person how to control their whole body (although many classes focus on sexual "energy") - and some types of "couple's counselling". I've heard of classes teaching sexual techniques (mainly by women for women or couples) in the US, but not here. Maybe they exist here, but they're certainly not common.

my final note- convicted pedophiles should be executed in my opinion.

not a lower crime.fark the slimy rockspiders.

But define a pedophile. Define a child. Define informed consent. Unless you've got definitions that work in every situation, plus a justice system that never makes mistakes, takes bribes, or makes biased decisions, then it's a pretty damn big call for you to make. It would mean, for instance (if Tort is right about the AOC being 16), that you fucking a 15-&-11-month old kid gets you killed, but if you wait 5 weeks it's absolutely OK. How is that fair? Also, how is that protecting the kid? Have they really grown up that much in those 5 weeks?

In the US they have a system in most states where all "sex offenders" are listed on an internet site for anyone to see. There was a doco on SBS about 2 years ago that interviewed some of these "offenders". One guy had had a 15 yr old girlfriend when he was 16 (the AOC in that state). Her dad found out that they'd had sex (she was over 16 by now) & had the boyfriend charged with statutory rape, against the girl's wishes. Now, whenever he goes to rent a flat, apply for a course or job or whatever, they can look up his name & find him listed as a "registered sex offender". The worst part according to him, was that the specific charges (& possibly even the date?) aren't listed on this registry. There is no distinction made between him having consensual sex with a girlfriend 6 months younger, and some guy who kidnapped toddlers to use in porn videos. Also, his name will never be removed - it doesn't matter that the girl is now 18 & can testify on his behalf, it doesn't matter if he's cleared as having no desire to fuck children by a hundred shrinks - his name stays.

I don't think that locking up guys like this, or publicising their "crimes", is the best way to protect our children. Keep the laws, sure, but introduce the +/- 2 years condition as well. And for fuck's sake, EDUCATE THEM. Properly. So that their consent truly is "informed".

Edited December 2, 2006 by Anodyne

[Torsten]

Age of consent relates to adults. There are special provisions for children. ie, you are right that children can have sex with children and there is no legal ramification. I am not sure of the actual age differences, but at under 15 I don't think it is limited. The 2 year limiatation used to apply to 15 to 18 year olds. But then again every state is different as these are state laws.

[ballzac]

Unless it has changed recently, in Victoria the two year rule applies to anyone having sex with someone between the ages of ten and sixteen. That is, a thirteen year old could be charged for having sex with a ten year old. Although I doubt it would happen unless there was some sort of bullying/coersion involved that the authorities found difficult to prove and instead used the statutory rape laws against the perpetrater. Although they might see it differently, and rightly so, if it was sex between a fifteen year old and a ten year old. I think it is more immoral for a fifteen year old to have sex with a ten year old than it is for a thirty year old to have sex with a fifteen year old, as I believe we change a lot in those early teen year, and not just physically.

[Torsten]

In was sexually totally naive at 15, and so were my nephews at that age. Things happen quickly at that age and after a few months everything can be [and was] very different.

Some of my friends knew they were gay by age 11 for example, and you have to be pretty sexually aware to make that sort of fundamental decision.

When I fell in love with an almost 16 year old he had been sexually active for a few years and already knew he was bi. His classmates who I was also friends with [and still am] were almost entirely sexually naive at that age. ie, some kids are 4, 5 or 6 years ahead of others. How on earth can any law encompass that in any meaningful way?

I've known 18 year olds who still did not have a clue and should not be allowed to become sexual prey, while I also know 15 year olds [and younger] who are sexually quite experienced and emotionally mature. I wonder if a licensing system woudl not be a more appropriate way of dealing with this issue. Just like you sit for your drivers license, you also sit for your sex license, and the test determines how emotionally and intellectually suited you are to having sex. Just an idea. It might prevent teeenage pregnancies too. The current system is a total failure on all fronts.

[ballzac]

I recently was under the influence of a substance, and was watching foxtel. I was getting really upset with all the exploitation on television. It seemed that everywhere I looked there was someone being used for the financial gain of another. There was a 13 year old girl who had just found out that the kid she thought was the father of her child was not, and she walked off stage crying. Maury Povich and the cameras followed her as he pretended to console her. I don't know if this show is staged of not but I am guessing it isn't. Either way it's disgusting.

Then on the crime channel, there was an ad for a documentary about a series of films called bumfights, in which homeless people are given small amounts of money or alcohol to do injurious and degrading things to themselves and each other. I am glad it was a documentary about how horrible the show is, because if it was the show itself, or something in support of it, I don't know if I would've been able to handle it.

My point is that this made me think about my opinions and earlier statements regarding pornography. I guess most of it boils down to the way women are treated by the producers of pornography, and it's hard to know. In the bumfights videos, I think it must be obvious the this is exploitation. The people gain nothing from the experience, and are physically and emotionally scarred by it. In pornography, I have always disliked movies where women are called sluts and whatnot, and treated in a way that I believe to be demeaning, but I've always assumed that a lot of it was just an act and so thought it was not immoral for those who DO find it enjoyable to watch it. But maybe, like the Maury Povich example, it is disgusting either way.

As for things like bukkake, I still believe that acts like these are things that some people will enjoy, and therefore must be considered to be in the same category as regular porn.

Okay, so now I think about porn in general. How do I know that the person in the porn movie isn't being exploited in much the same way as the people in the bumfights videos? I suppose I don't, but there are probably good indicators. If it is a high budget movie, I guess the company is more likely to pay their actresses well, and not to manipulate them as much. But really, there is no way to know.

That brings me to another question. There is a show called fear factor where people were drinking a smoothie made from rotting fish, cockroaches and other sickening ingredients, for a chance to win a holiday. On the bumfights documentary they showed a scene where a man was paid $20 to eat a dead frog. Is there a difference between exploiting someones greed and exploiting someones desire for survival, or the feeding of an addiction? I think so, but I can't right now think of a nice way to explain that difference.

So, back to porn... I am always going to find the idea of a girl wanting to eat my cum very erotic. I love it when my girlfriend does it. I like seeing girls in porn eat cum because it makes me feel like if they would eat someone else's cum then maybe they would eat mine too. It turns me on. But how do I know those girls in the movies are not being exploited? I don't. When my girlfriend does it, I know that she is choosing to do it. Maybe I should not watch porn at all.

Then again, because I cannot know for sure if an employee anywhere is being exploited, this would mean I can't do anything. I can't eat because I don't know if someone was exploited in the production of the food I am eating. So this bring me back to sqaure one. I really don't know what to do about this conundrum and I'd really like people's input. I know people have already said a lot in this thread, but I'm hoping this will encourage more discussion.

What really motivated me in reviving this thread was the bumfights thing. It made me sick, and I don't want to be one of those people getting off on material like that without realising I'm doing it. So I need to think long and hard about what I am encouraging by watching porn in general, and also in choosing the sort of porn that I choose.

EDIT: The documentary is on again at two thirty if anyone want to catch it, I'm sure it will be on again.

Edited April 16, 2007 by ballzac

[Rev]

lol

only planthelper would start this thread

good on you

Free porn isnt as easy to find as it was- the free sites give SFA to freeloader like me

even less now on dial up

ive had a turn at nearly everything - cept eyeball porn

its fun but its also gets kinda flat after a while

i know my tastes have changed alot

never liked glam porn like i guess playboy personifies

i always preferred sluts ;D

when i was 20 i still liked teenage girls and i guess was kinda still young in the head myself

I liked hentai - but some is dodgy esp as i get older and they get younger. it makes me feel uncomfortable. a few years go id see a 17 year old and think nice, now i wouldnt , my ideal has shifted to 19 to 23. i expect itll go up more in time as i REALLY need at least the illusion of intellectual maturity to turn me on

thers just only so many intelligen t ways to use the video porn genre

unless

i guess you can say i do like financial exploitation porn. i think its funny to see dumb girls end up givin it up for nothing or get more than they bargained for. its a reliable and time tested formula

its just sex after all, they give it away free all the time

it might be primal male female thing - the battle of the sexes

situation: female tries to bind guy into contractual sex, guy tricks her out of payment or obligation, girl is left miffed

anyway its fun

some sites have a sense of humour too and arent all degradation

this shane diesel guy is a crackup, good to have a laugh instead of the all too serious regulars you see in every bloody flick http://mydaughtersfuckingablackdude.com/pa...m/print.php?621

Edited April 16, 2007 by Rev

[ThunderIdeal]

the guys who made bumfights were sent to prison.

exploitation is rampant but bumfights took it too far.. there are varying levels of behaviour and after bumfights 1 what they were doing was so fucking reprehensible that the bleeding hearts demanded they be bought to justice... and they were!

my regret is that slightly less vile exploitation doesn't have the same result

i'm not surprised you were sickened. bumfights isn't just about bums being paid to fight.. random bums were bullied and degraded for no reward whatsoever. truly reprehensible behaviour for a human being to engage in, and that applies to any worthless so-called "man" who goes around demeaning random people.

[Guest onemind]

Now that gay porn, child porn, animal porn and all other taboo porn has been discussed, there is one left...

Muslim Porn:

Thats as far as they go i'm afraid :D

[ThunderIdeal]

i bet there's arab porn, it just doesn't fall under the term "muslim" because it contradicts the term. that would be like calling american/british porn "christian", or israeli porn "jewish"...... or thailand porn "buddhist"... or new zealand porn, ahhhhhhh, i won't go there.

[Guest onemind]

yeah, it was a joke..

[Guest onemind]

Even so, i disagree with your logic. Muslim porn is valid just like little boy porn for catholic preists or nun porn for sexually repressed boarding schoolers or school teacher porn or nurse porn ect ect..

Who said porn had to be labeled by race?

[AndyAmine.]

I think Yowie already beat you to it Onemind.. LOL..