Field tripping- acacia dreamtime

[_e_]

Upon our imminent arrival back in Australia, Sophie and i plant to visit a particular tree we have donned the 'grandfather acacia'-OBTUS.

We hope to visit the said tree and its friends to collect seed and make a second flower essence, to complement the essence work we have already been doing with this tree.

At present we have only enough money for food and petrol, so if someone is interested and has access to reliable transport, and a week off in late december, please contact me ASAP.

We are also looking at collecting seedlings from 'high impact areas' and translocating them to somewhere NOT frequented by logging trucks (i.e from on state forest access roads to backyards and private property).

so anyone interested in purchasing and growing the said seedlings can also contact me.

We will be using the funds from the sale of the seedlings (which will be sold for a nominal fee) to supplement the cost of hiring a trailor, and obtaining a collectors permit for the NSW state forests.

Seed will be widely distributed in the hope of curbing un-neccessary impact on other more vulnerable native plants.

We have only one week in december, and theres probably only room for 2 people.

during the field trip, we would hope to share as much of the wisdom we have soaked up from these trees as possible.

And such endeavours are always rewarding and rich with adventure and excitement. CRIKEY!

Hope theres someone out there in SAB world thats as keen to get amongst it as we are.

plant love!

e

Edited October 6, 2006 by ({E})

[hebrew]

sounds like a great trip i wish i was able to come and hang out but alas i need to work

[Torsten]

i plant to visit a particular tree we have donned the 'grandfather acacia'.

There is a tree that has been known as The Grandfather for at least 7 years, but probably quite a bit longer. It was analysed to be particularly high in alkaloids. Unless it is the same plant it may not be a good choice of name as there is already a bit of stuff written about the grandfather and this confuse things - especially from a pharmacological and genetic perspective.

We are also looking at collecting seedlings from 'high impact areas' and translocating them to somewhere NOT frequented by logging trucks

Time is probably better spent growing new plants from seed, as even seedlings have a very low survival rate when transplanted - especially from the wild.

obtaining a collectors permit for the NSW state forests.

What's the NSW permit for? Do you know of another location?

We have only one week in december, and theres probably only room for 2 people.

That's less than 3 months away! Good luck getting a NP collectors permit in that time!

Hope theres someone out there in SAB world thats as keen to get amongst it as we are

I think it's a great idea! However, I think the time frame and the scope are a bit problematic, especially if you have never dealt with these government agencies before. The concept of basing your regeneration and sales on dug up seedlings also has a high potential for failure. Unless it has just rained up there it would be almost impossible to dig up seedlings that will survive in the long term.

A poorly designed or rushed project may not only end up failing, but will also reduce the likelihood of other similar projects being approved. I'd really like to see this go ahead, but maybe with a bit more organisation and flexibility.

[MORG]

That's less than 3 months away! Good luck getting a NP collectors permit in that time!

Eli said a State Forests permit. Do you even need a permit to collect from State Forests? If so, this would surely be a bit easier to obtain than NP permits, although government bureaucracy is government bureacracy.

Can I ask to what the specific purpose of this field trip is? I'm assuming you're talking about A. obtusifolia. It sounds like you're framing it within a conservation context, but I'm not aware that the species required specific conservation attention.

Perhaps you're just considering one vulnerable population? Or just saving seedlings in harm's way for warm fuzzies? I'm not trying to take you down a notch, that's fine by me! I think whatever brings people out to engage with nature is a good thing.

[Torsten]

Eli said a State Forests permit.

I am not aware of plants of this species in state forest, but eli would know more about that, so this may or may not be what he meant.

Do you even need a permit to collect from State Forests?

You need a permit to collect on any crown land. The permit is made more complex by the fact they are intending on collecting a threatened species and maybe in a NP.

If so, this would surely be a bit easier to obtain than NP permits, although government bureaucracy is government bureacracy.

In most states the permit is actually the same, but the endorsement differs. ie, same application, but to get a threatened species endorsement you would need to provide a lot more supporting evidence of what you are going to do with them.

Can I ask to what the specific purpose of this field trip is? I'm assuming you're talking about A. obtusifolia.

I presume he is talking about A. phlebophylla. Which is why this isn't quite as straight forward....

[Torsten]

Maybe call it the "Grandmother' or 'Grandfather's Son' or "Stepsister' tree to avoid upsetting the easily offended.

Easily offended? What's that got to do with anything other than your petty sarcasm. It's got nothing to do with me - it just happens that I know a bit about the recent history of these trees.

I was told about and shown the grandfather tree by Hex in about 2001 and from the context I am pretty sure it was named quite a few years before that. The melbourne crew all know the particular tree under that name. Furthermore, this tree was shown to have an alkaloid content more than double the average. It is widely grown from seed as a particularly precious specimen. It has been mentioned in at least 2 books under that name and has also been mentioned in various stories and papers. It is the ONLY tree that has been named in any way. So, it would seem silly to use the same name for another tree that may not share these important research traits. I merely pointed this out to Eli so he doesn't regret the naming at a later time. On the other hand, there is also a good chance that he is actually referring to the same tree in which case it is a good idea to confirm this so folks can associate the literature mentions with Eli's comments and products.

As for your other smug comment, maybe you haven't heard, but I have been out of phleb research for a year or two now, so I am even more happy to see others taking this on. But I also know that the Buffalo NP rangers are well aware of the desirable nature of this species and hence a 'hippie style' project will not resonate well with them and may indeed make it much more difficult for others to try again in the future. Eli is probably aware of that, but I thought I'd point out the timing problems.

[_e_]

This project isnt necessarily for 'conservation', and isnt anything more 'scoped' then getting out there and playing with the plants, to develop our relationship with what is (to us) a very sacred and powerful spirit guide.

The seedlings and plants im tlking about are A.obtus, and occur in State forest amongst areas of high impact logging.

The seedlings are quite juvenile and expposed on the road surface, also in drainage ditches.

There are high rainfalls around december in the area, and the seedlings can be safely transplanted after the rains by digging a large area around them and removing as much root mass from the tiny seedlings as possible. Using an innoculent upon re-planting and using the same soil mass is said to improve success considerably. Considering the plants are regularly getting run over by logging trucks and graders are regularly re-surfacing the road base, i think any transplanting (even if low viability) is worth a shot.

As for the whole 'grandfather' thing. We are aware of the phlebophylla that has been called the 'grandfather'. However for US the grandfather tree is a particularly robust and proud obtusifolia we have encountered.

We call it the grandfather because that is OUR relationship to the plant... We dont really care if someone has called the phleb the grandfather, because TO US the phlebophylla has a particularly feminen nature, and the obtus a particularly strong and proud mascaline nature..

thus the plant that is referred to as the grandfather by others (the large phleb) is in fact more like a grandmother to us. And in our communications with the plant it has definately identified itself TO US as one of many 'mothers of the mountain'.

We also referr to the plants by such names because when we first started making the essence from the grandfather obtus, sophie had just returned from her grandfathers funeral, and my grandpa was sick. So we were working through a lot of family stuff, as we interacted with the plant.

we were aware of the large phleb being called the grandfather before we encountered the obtus, but having strong communications with both plants, i really felt that TO US the phleb is a lot more maternal, and the obtus paternal.

I really dont care what other people have named these plants, because i think that personal experience and interactions with a plant far outweigh the need to integrate the communication of such things into a pre-existing framework.

With the collectors permit, my understanding is that when collecting plant matter from logging areas and state forests, one only needs a licence to collect firewood. And as it is only small scale, i doubt we will have a problem obtaining a non commercial state forest firewood collectors licence.

The idea of this post was to get the word out that its happening, and that anyone interested is free to join us, as we always have an amaisingly beautiful experience when we spend time out there, and we want to share the love as much as possible, and hopefully encourage other people to go and get more intimate with these plants. We have an upmost respect and reverence for these plants, somethign which goes unseen by many. So this is an opportunity for people to come and share in our interactions with them.

this trip needent be complicated by anything other then the weather...

(lets just hope they are seeding as prolifically as they were last season).

Edited October 6, 2006 by ({E})

[_e_]

to avoid any further confusion regarding the plant we call the grandfather acacia, we will now call it grandfather obtus...

We also connect the area we are visiting and the localised community to 'Goanna dreaming', as there are very very healthy populations of lace monitors, with the particular tree we refer to as grandfather obtus, giving refuge to a particularly old and large goanna on more then one occasion.

BTW - Torsten

i would never approach the situation on mount buffallo as casually and nonchalent as this.

Im well aware of the politics of the situation, and as such think anything remotely 'hippy' and 'poorly planned' would do more damage then good.

I would hope u know me better then to think i would approach the Mt buffallo situation like this.

Its a whole other ball game, requiring a lot more energy then waltsing in with a bunch of friends hoping to get a collectors permit and 'free the captives'.

I appreciate i may come accross as being naive and idealistic at times... but im not quite that bad

But im glad this issue has been raised.

Edited October 6, 2006 by ({E})

[Green Chemist]

Hello E,

Can you give some more information in regard to the location of said project? I am from Brisbane and might be free in December, I also have a car and camping equipment as well.

Cheers

Green Chemist

[Torsten]

The seedlings and plants im tlking about are A.obtus, and occur in State forest amongst areas of high impact logging.

LOL, see what happens when two trees get the same name

Given that you are leading the way with phlebo research these days it was an easy assumption to make. Also, you have talked quite a bit of various phlebo projects you had in mind.

to avoid any further confusion regarding the plant we call the grandfather acacia, we will now call it grandfather obtus...

Good point actually, as the phleb is often called Grandfather Phlebophylla.

BTW - Torsten

i would never approach the situation on mount buffallo as casually and nonchalent as this.

Im well aware of the politics of the situation, and as such think anything remotely 'hippy' and 'poorly planned' would do more damage then good.

I would hope u know me better then to think i would approach the Mt buffallo situation like this.

Yes, I do know you better than that and I think I said as much in my post, but thought that maybe you were underestimating the burocracy you would have to deal with for a buffalo project. Even the best organised project would end up in disarray if the paperwork doesn't come through in time.

[_e_]

i wouldnt say we are leading the way in phlebo research in any way shape or form.

I actually havent done any form of 'research' per-say. Most of what we would consider to have 'contributed' is simple observations ( at times perhaps overly emotive) from our time amongst them.

What we would like to see happen is another story, and something that as yet we havent had the time, energy and resources to implement.

There was an ongoing ecology survey when first i visited the park rangers in mid 2004, i think perhaps RMIT students?

We havent been able to make many leads since we were given the beaurecratic stone wall late last year, and our attempt to gain funding from a scandanavian cultural exchange grant was rejected due to a lack of 'official support' from governmental agencies.

We hope in the future to formulate a better relationship with governmental agencies in regards to this, and also to make contact with indigenous caretakers. If we get the right endorsements we are gaurenteed to get the research grant, as there is money already assigned to us from an earlier project in New Zealand.

Also, in regards to the whole grandfather confuddlement. I did clearly state that the fieldtrip was occurring in NSW state forests in areas of logging. But i can understand the mix up.

[Torsten]

i wouldnt say we are leading the way in phlebo research in any way shape or form.

I actually havent done any form of 'research' per-say. Most of what we would consider to have 'contributed' is simple observations ( at times perhaps overly emotive) from our time amongst them.

With all the work that has been done on this species, there are two things that are of the highest importance. The first is surveillance. With changing weather patterns and increased dmt tourism there can be major changes in a very short space of time, and it seems imperative for someone to observe the populations on a regular basis.

The second is ex situ propagation in the same or similar climate and preferably close to the native area itself. There are various reasons why you are best suited for that.

The rest has been done, is being done, or isn't relevant yet, so by doing these two things you are (like it or not) at the coal face of the current and important work.

re befuddlement - yeah, I am well know for that