The Case Against DMT Elves

[drgibbon]

I understand that we tend to question and think in binary... is this thing "real" (as opposed to not-real). But, everything consciousness touches and is touched by is REALLY having some sort of affect on that part of consciousness, sometimes more affect than others...

This is true, but I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by 'real'. The question is, do these things have an existence indepedent of our minds? Not do they have any effect on our journey (which they certainly must). I take your point, that people should not bother with such questions and just accept them for what they are and see what they can do, but enquiring minds like to enquire

by perceiving truth as a spectrum of value that is trying to negotiate and cope within a collective enterprise or organism ( such as a family, community, culture, government, planet) there is an emphasis on the collectivity that is geometrically more powerful and vibrant when balanced, that is, egalitarian, equal, less dominating with manipulative top-heavy truths.

The problem with extreme relativistic notions of truth is that our world doesn't seem to function entirely like that (on a physical level at least). I think it's important to balance out the relativist position and the positivist position, in my opinion neither extreme is correct (in the realms of 3 dimensions at least).

Who cares whether we are 'real' or not... conceptions of subjectivity, volition, consciousness, are all for grabs... they seem to be value points that an observer opens within her consciousness. Is the rock alive and conscious? do the clouds feel the land to be thirsty? are animals persons?

Do you feel sorrow if you shoot a character in a computer game? What about if you shoot a real human being? There is a difference! (I'm not saying there's no effect on your consciousness, just that the distinction is not meaningless).

contemplating and reflecting is great, but careful to not bunjee jump into it without a chord (grasping for 'real'), as you'll simply get eaten by a nihilistic black-hole.

Check your assumptions This may be true for you.. but are you sure everyone must fall into a (post-modern?) nihilistic black hole?

[Endrogen]

Awesome thread... DMT reminds me of what it must of felt like to look up at the stars before we could magnify them with telescopes, except these perceptions are native to the mind. Psychology/neurology is one of the weaker sciences, that leaves us with primitive tools for analysis and incompetant definitions. I think these experiences will be validated when science unifies particle physics with quantum mechanics, because maybe the mind is more concerned with things beyond relativity. That's what it feels like to me, i'm not experiencing data or information but maybe things more related to knowledge or even a different kind of objectivity i'm not familiar with, kind of like the subconcience, collective subconcience or it could be the other way around, experiencing psycholigical data/information subjectively and my objective mind superimposing patterns which creates a feedback loop of my own self awareness.

[drugo]

Hey yeti101

Do you have a reference for where I could read up on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis particularly in regards to "seeing objects as relationships"?? It may just be be what I'm looking for

This is true, but I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by 'real'. The question is, do these things have an existence indepedent of our minds? Not do they have any effect on our journey (which they certainly must). I take your point, that people should not bother with such questions and just accept them for what they are and see what they can do, but enquiring minds like to enquire

 

I enjoy entertaining ontological understandings of elves, but am simply advocating that understandings of what they "do" is of more importance, especially given that our general understandings of what 'is' (internal/external imagined/real) is buried under the rubble of certain philosophical traditions.

The problem with extreme relativistic notions of truth is that our world doesn't seem to function entirely like that (on a physical level at least). I think it's important to balance out the relativist position and the positivist position, in my opinion neither extreme is correct (in the realms of 3 dimensions at least).

 

Not once did I mention relativism... let alone advocate 'extreme' relativism??? in fact, at one point (which you quoted from) I spoke of the a spectrum of values associated with planetary consciousness. Personally I do not ascribe to such postmodern ethics as relativism.

Do you feel sorrow if you shoot a character in a computer game? What about if you shoot a real human being? There is a difference! (I'm not saying there's no effect on your consciousness, just that the distinction is not meaningless).

 

I see your point. But, there is a big difference between plant-spirits and characters on a computer game (both ontologically and, more importantly, functionally) and while I applaud attempts at trying to understand the ontological existence of elves in relation to the psyche (including the relationship of the psyche with All), I urge that the whole question of functionality and value is of much greater importance and I believe that by going down this path incredible insight may be uncovered in relation to ontological concerns. the more ya "do", the more ya "know".

Check your assumptions This may be true for you.. but are you sure everyone must fall into a (post-modern?) nihilistic black hole?

 

check your assumptions (and my post).. I never said that everyone does or must fall victim to bunjee jumping into thought without a chord, but instead, that every serious thinker runs this risk, and I suggest that we must be careful about this.

are you trying to deny the fact that the wisdom of our culture is built on monophasic positivist foundations>>??? Such foundations that completely dismiss altered states of consciousness all the while the historically high majority of human enterprises on earth value and revere such "alien" experiences -- and hence make space for them in society for the betterment of all.

for the most part, shamanism begins where thinking ends. That is what I mean by calling on the fiery morale of Nietzsche rational nihilism. I am a great lover of rationality and thought, but just not at the expense of other faculties of being in the world.

I'm sure when other cultures first 'publicly' started exploring the bizarre fascinating world of entheogens and astral and mental beings they began considering such things as, "are these things "real"... perhaps they are the like dreams... are they like drawings, that move???" before moving onto the "well... what can they do"?

Perhaps it's like humans finding the ocean or beach for the first time, thinking... hmmm, what is this, is this real? quick, sample it and put it under a microscope, hmmm we need to think about this for a while... But then, through training up people to swim, including training for use of technologies for swimming (scuba-gear, lights, -- shamanic equivalent: myth, song, stones, symbols) then suddenly the human finds themselves navigating alien worlds full of geometric shaped coloured coral, many different strange entities that know how to swim really well, each in different ways, friendly ones, dangerous ones...etc)

Edited September 22, 2010 by telepathogen

[mutant]

dude, if you find repeating yourself boring, then don't do it!

tele, you're absolutely right, the binary real/imaginary is not really productive

instead, what is really interesting is , what you said,

what does it "DO"? Can it help me/us???

which I have repeatedly asked to those who experience these realms and have a steady relationship with them, but alas, I got no answer....

I would further the point: psychs in mid doses, without extreme halluciantions can have an enormous potential in seeing in ourselves, beneficial, educational, philosophical etc. Are big doses capable of anything more impressive - practically wise, in real life I mean - than the normal effects and potential benefits of normal doses?

*******

Of course I have more 'annoying' questions:

you propose we should research, explore these realms, philosophically and practically. I agree. So, do we exclude f.e. psychotics, OCD-ers and those on messiah syndromes from the research or we regard them as perfectly normal and healthy samples and include their experiences in our research?

And another one: What you all seem to describe sounds like connecting to that virtual reality apparatus in Cronenbergs Existenz,[a fine movie, see it if you haven't] The parallel is drawn from the fact the these experiences are triggered manually by administering powerful consciousness altering & hallucinogenic drugs [like the apparatus is doing in that film].

So, whatever it is, to me it's pretty obvious that it's virtual.

And yet, another one:

we all know that trips can end up not so good and clear, but can be bringing on distortion and confusion, people horrified by seeing inexisting stuff etc... A bad trip can complete distort reality perception: while during a normal trip [talking about normal doses] everything is enhanced and perceived more intensely, in a bad trip, stuff is distorted, but more often than not, the distortion is such that the experience generates 'false' enhancements, f.e. instead of enhancing normal perception, it enhances paranoia - which by itself is distortion-, it might enhance fear, anxiety.

So all in all, some trips are not reality enhancers but rather reality distorters. In practice this means that trips are not always reliable and according to reality , even in normal doses.

How can noone consider those facts at all, when argueing about the genuine nature of those experiences?

[drgibbon]

Not once did I mention relativism... let alone advocate 'extreme' relativism??? in fact, at one point (which you quoted from) I spoke of the a spectrum of values associated with planetary consciousness. Personally I do not ascribe to such postmodern ethics as relativism.

Really? Is "perceiving truth as a spectrum of values" not entirely relativistic? Anyway, my point was only that the distinction between real and unreal is not unreasonable, and as I said, the question was whether these things have an existence independent of our minds.

I urge that the whole question of functionality and value is of much greater importance and I believe that by going down this path incredible insight may be uncovered in relation to ontological concerns. the more ya "do", the more ya "know".

Agreed

are you trying to deny the fact that the wisdom of our culture is built on monophasic positivist foundations>>???

Nah, I agree with you.

[The Dude]

...the question was whether these things have an existence independent of our minds.

 

I think that's what telepathogen was alluding to about thinking of things (objects/subjects) as relationships: Perhaps there is no real independence of anything in this interwoven matrix. Geometry suggests a holographic existence, numerology and written languages show self similarity, music has harmonies and chords, poetry and visual art is a self referencing kaleidescope and synaesthesia envelopes it all.

Everything is only something relative to another. It is harmonious or dischordant. It is real or fake, totally relative though. I suppose that all possibilities are true from that particular perspective. *sigh* all i know is i know nadda.

Edited September 22, 2010 by The Dude

[mutant]

I deleted my post since dude edited out his posts and the discussion went PM, even though some of the thoughts in there where good for public discussion, albeit a bit 'heated'

keep it up

one thing, it's because I don't consider you guys dellusional I argue. If I did think you were indeed dellusional, I wouldn't bother

Edited September 22, 2010 by mutant

[drgibbon]

Thinking a bit more about this, it seems to me that the whole 'what they do' and 'are they real' are not as disparate as they appear. For people interested in if they are real (such as James Kent), what they can do would be of great interest, because if they can do anything (beyond what is expected of a person), that would support their 'realness' (in terms of them being actual entities from other dimensions, or whatever). For example, if you could access accurate information you could not possibly know otherwise etc (like CS was saying very early in this thread about messages in Hebrew; although some would argue these capabilities are possible for humans anyway, but that's another thing). For people more interested in what they do, then the realness is either assumed, or not bothered with and just accepted for what it is in terms of the actual experience and what it brings to their life, and the whole distinction is done away with (like telepathogen is talking about).

When I was in Peru a few years back for the Shamanism Conference, Julian Haynes gave a talk about his pyramid project. Basically he said he had received some information during repeated ayahuasca ceremonies that he should build this floating pyramid, and that it would be something that would make Iquitos a sort of global spiritual centre. He was (is?) fully committed, said he's sold all his belongings from Britain, had heavy donations from other people to be able to do it, and even left his wife and kids. Last I heard, he had completed the frame for it, but had run out of money and the project stalled (although I don't know the current status as there's not much info on his website about it). How you take this, I don't know. Assuming the project failed (although it might not have) you could conclude that the information he received was bogus, but then again maybe it was just something that had to happen, and the completion of the project was not the important thing. The 'real' and 'do' seem to be intertwined.

From my own perspective, I've had some experiences that certainly opened me up to possibilities beyond those supposed under the view of a sort of mechanical, lifeless universe that a lot of us in West have probably grown up with. If I find ayahuasca (as a DMT example) to be beneficial to my health/mind/spirit, then what it 'does' is quite sufficient for me. It's real in the sense that I experience it and it helps me on my way, which I think is the real telepathogen is talking about(?), maybe not the same real that Kent is on about, but both for real yo

[kayesem]

Comment found regarding the 'pyramid project' mentioned above;

Anonymous said...

I know someone who was in Peru with him. He is for real.

He really did abandon his wife and children to massage his ego with this daft project.

First i had heard of it, and it does seem daft to me. Can't blame the dude though, he probably thinks he has done the right thing.

On topic -

why these beings that have been generated by my subconscious seem to be so responsive to fear and so repulsed by love, and also why the much more beautiful beings that can try to access you at the same time as the negative beings seem to respond so well to love and are pushed further away by any fear that is present. Also the geometry they use to try to communicate to you, why it is so unlike any geometry I have ever seen

While i can't relate to specific DMT experiences and 'entities', and can definitely relate to experiencing seemingly separate evil beings and being viscously attacked by them, during what i have simply called the worst trip ever.

The above comment really stood out and the topic is a very important to me personally: To find out if these evil beings are merely projections of our shadow selves or actually separate, autonomous beings that are 'out there', and just what can be done about it.

The implications IMO cannot be undermined or underestimated. If they are projections of aspects of ourselves, then there is a solution we can work on to resolve the situation. If they are real, we are in big fucking trouble. If we believe them to be projections but they are actually real, we can unwittingly place ourselves in extremely unpleasant and dangerous situations. If we believe that they are real and separate, but they are actually not, then not only will we experience the extreme horror of the situation, but will likely become traumatized for life and never seek to even risk a repeat of the experience, even in a trillion years, thereby seriously stunting our spiritual growth in what must be a task of facing and overcoming such things.

After much of my own discussion lately on the topic, the projection of subconscious theory makes the most sense, and some of the advice given to me was exactly as quoted above.

Your demons feed on fear, your angels feed on love. They say that 'you are what you eat', so it seems that we are simply dealing with FEAR and LOVE. These are two of the most basic, ancient, universal and powerful symbols of each end of the human emotional spectrum, and of the field of opposites which enable our earthly existence.

As Botanik said on page 2 after quoting the same paragraph, it sounds a whole lot like everyday human life. We are energetic and emotional beings, and a rule in our playing field is that like attracts like. We naturally gravitate to, and become friends with, people who remind us of ourselves. The scared child cannot maintain his or her state of fear for long, as it dissolves and becomes transmuted into the currents of warmth and love provided by the emotional bath of the wise mother.

And conversely, that which we resist, persists. Struggling with all of our might against our demons only reinforces them. Out of ignorance of ourselves, we have mistaken the apparitions to have a reality outside of our own. We perceive these representations as actual and alien beings, for we have spent so long denying those parts that we see them as separate from us and fail to recognise them as the parts of our own makeup that we have been taught to repress.

As witnessed by C S and myself, no amount of willpower or strength can overcome these energies or make them disappear once we are in their grips. This only serves to make matters worse, by feeding the 'beings' fear and giving away our strength.

As advised to me recently, and in accord with the instructions given in the Psy version of the Tibetan Book Of The Dead, the only way past, is to go through it. To accept and surrender. To release all resistance and to recognize the appearance as nothing more than another image of part of ourself. To realize that truth, and to give love. Just like in that Beatles song; 'love is the answer'.

The key is right there. These beings and one's experience of them seem so real that nobody can seem to say for sure whether they actually are or not, but it is known that the fearful beings are attracted by fear and repulsed by love, and equally so that the loving beings are attracted by love and repulsed by fear.

I'm not sure what is more difficult. Fighting our demons in fear, or recognizing them in the moment as ourselves. I imagine it must be a necessary obstacle on the path, what some have referred to as 'the dark night of the soul'.

In my own experience, dealing with fear seems to be the biggest obstacle there is. Using large doses of psychs as a shortcut to these deep realms can really throw one in the deep end, often without warning or any prior experience in the more shallow waters. A trusted sitter and guide during these trips would be of huge assistance, ideally being present to offer comfort and reminders along the way, as we 'do the work'.

That's my impression, and i hope it will serve to help myself and others along the way.

Cheers.

[botanika]

Your demons feed on fear, your angels feed on love. They say that 'you are what you eat', so it seems that we are simply dealing with FEAR and LOVE. These are two of the most basic, ancient, universal and powerful symbols of each end of the human emotional spectrum, and of the field of opposites which enable our earthly existence.

And conversely, that which we resist, persists. Struggling with all of our might against our demons only reinforces them. Out of ignorance of ourselves, we have mistaken the apparitions to have a reality outside of our own. We perceive these representations as actual and alien beings, for we have spent so long denying those parts that we see them as separate from us and fail to recognise them as the parts of our own makeup that we have been taught to repress.

To realize that truth, and to give love. Just like in that Beatles song; 'love is the answer'.

In my own experience, dealing with fear seems to be the biggest obstacle there is. Using large doses of psychs as a shortcut to these deep realms can really throw one in the deep end, often without warning or any prior experience in the more shallow waters. A trusted sitter and guide during these trips would be of huge assistance, ideally being present to offer comfort and reminders along the way, as we 'do the work'.

That's my impression, and i hope it will serve to help myself and others along the way.

Cheers.

 

At the most basic level it's this: food, shelter, sex. Love is not required for any of those - it helps, but is not essential. Cooperation is far more important. Fear is no more an obstacle than your legs. Fear is what makes your legs run away from lions or run after bison. Fear is far more essential than love and why it is experienced so commonly.

What goes up must come down. Anyone who thinks DMT elves are real needs to get back down.

[chilli]

Wow, this thread is still going... one of my favorite SAB threads.

Depends on how high you get on 'Maslow's hierarchy of needs' as to whether you would consider love an essential...

It also depends on how you define love.. one person might have romantic feelings in mind, another might be thinking of trust, respect, commitment etc...

SOURCE: http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

edit: wow, that pyramid was too big, here is a littler one.

PS Botanika: elves might be able to be considered real, depends on how you define reality.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick

Edited December 31, 2010 by .:illegal:brain:.

[kayesem]

At the most basic level it's this: food, shelter, sex. Love is not required for any of those - it helps, but is not essential. Cooperation is far more important. Fear is no more an obstacle than your legs. Fear is what makes your legs run away from lions or run after bison. Fear is far more essential than love and why it is experienced so commonly.

I get what you're saying, but the topic is not about basic survival of the body in the physical world, it's about the health of the soul (and i s'pose the mind) in other realms. Coming across a perceived threat in those spaces and kicking in the basic instincts of fear and escape will not work to resolve the situation, but only make it worse.

I was pointing out symbols and the balance of opposites. The day cannot exist without the night, the male without the female, etc. etc. etc.

In the context of this topic and in life, both must be as equally essential as each other. Nobody can live their life only breathing out all the time and not breathing in.

Regarding your thoughts, i disagree. I think that although love may not be needed for food, shelter and sex, neither is fear.

You could argue that a fear of death can be the motivation behind seeking all of these things, but even once acquired it is still only a matter of time before death comes, and as long as there is life, there must be the balance of death from which there is no escape.

You could also argue that love is the motivation to find food, have a home and have sex. A love for life. If all day, everyday we just ran around in fear being chased by lions, why not just be eaten and get it over with? At least your earthly demise would help support the life of another.

Fear does not make our legs run. It can lead to the triggering of a response. The most basic response that is programmed into us via instinct is the 'fight or flight' response. It still has it's place, i'm sure, but it often does not have a practical application by todays living standards.

In any case, we always have a choice to make, whether we're conscious of it or not.

What goes up must come down. Anyone who thinks DMT elves are real needs to get back down.

Yes, fair call. But lets imagine that intstead of talking about encountering elves while on DMT, we're talking about scary monsters in our dreams.

We might know that they're not real in this world, but when we are dreaming we tend to be totally convinced that the world we are in is real. If we are lucky enough to catch ourselves out, we can clearly see that we are dreaming and that we can stop being scared and dissolve that monster because we are the creators of our dream world, whether we are conscious of it or otherwise, and why would we consciously choose to create such unpleasant things?

Eventually (assuming we haven't died), we wake up in the everyday world, back in our body. We go about our business. We believe everything in our world to be an unquestioned reality, because everyone agrees that it is so. Then we go and eat a trip. Suddenly, our trusty, solid reality becomes fluid and dreamlike.

The fact that we can be dreaming and not doubt for a second our reality, not even realise we were dreaming until we awaken, causes issues. If our minds can deceive us so massively, it would seem entirely possible that we could have also been deceived during our entire waking lives. Tripping hard can make us see that the physical world is just another kind of dream.

It can also send us into other worldly dimensions which are neither sleep dreaming nor wake dreaming. We have experiences there which are just as real as experiences anywhere else.

I guess i'm ranting a bit, but the point should be clear. You imply that elves are not real and suggest to get back to what is real? But we don't know what is real. The only information we have about our waking reality; has been collected by the senses and presented back to the senses. But the senses themselves are a part of it all, and can never be on the outside looking in.

If sleeping, dreaming life is there to teach us, i think the message is this:

We are co-creators of our entire reality in waking life, but we are mostly unaware of the connection. We are not seperate from our environment, but we are it and it is us. Our minds and thoughts shape our world, but with the gift of some kind of time for the energy to condense into the material.

Anyway, sorry for the ranting. These ideas are not really put out there to change anyones point to view, just to help me understand more fully my own views.

[ThunderIdeal]

loving your input here kayesem. i can almost see a resurgence of past levels of discussion in this sub-forum, with your arrival and the return of some other characters. i have a theory on why discussion slowed but it could just be that we've all had our say and don't feel like putting in more effort.

i want to insert my recent sleep paralysis experiences, which first began with an obvious cause but seem to have carried on with or without that cause. they consist of me being terrified, being somewhat aware that i'm trying to move so that i can escape the terrible situation, becoming semi-awake but unable to defeat the tiredness falling back into dream. there is more to say but that's the general flow of events without mentioning the really weird stuff. even though it is frustrating to the hairless ape, that horrors present themselves merely so he can defeat fear, that is what i guess is happening. fear in this instance is an obstacle to further spiritual awakening. i often triumph over fear in dreams, or show reckless courage, but the paralysis experience is too real. i figure the state has this potential to lead into things like astral projection, if you can just maintain your cool, but demons, ghosts, astral flotsam, are too real for me and i haven't had convincing experiences of repelling them with love. the time i did make some attempts to "utilise' the experience, indeed i began to astral project and it wasn't even the presence of some terror that made me flee, it was the sheer fact that i had entered a world completely bizarre to me, and it was REAL, accompanied by a strange sound and a strange sensation.

i think over the course of my life i may become better equipped. for now i think regular yoga practice is a good way forward, it improves the body and mind and is a stable platform for growth. you have to build a strong foundation and i think that's where us trippers often fail.

[Rabaelthazar]

Come on Mutant... this thread is calling for your input.

Gentlemen, no hitting below the belt, now to your respective corners.

[kayesem]

loving your input here kayesem. i can almost see a resurgence of past levels of discussion in this sub-forum, with your arrival and the return of some other characters. i have a theory on why discussion slowed but it could just be that we've all had our say and don't feel like putting in more effort.

i want to insert my recent sleep paralysis experiences, which first began with an obvious cause but seem to have carried on with or without that cause. they consist of me being terrified, being somewhat aware that i'm trying to move so that i can escape the terrible situation, becoming semi-awake but unable to defeat the tiredness falling back into dream. there is more to say but that's the general flow of events without mentioning the really weird stuff. even though it is frustrating to the hairless ape, that horrors present themselves merely so he can defeat fear, that is what i guess is happening. fear in this instance is an obstacle to further spiritual awakening. i often triumph over fear in dreams, or show reckless courage, but the paralysis experience is too real. i figure the state has this potential to lead into things like astral projection, if you can just maintain your cool, but demons, ghosts, astral flotsam, are too real for me and i haven't had convincing experiences of repelling them with love. the time i did make some attempts to "utilise' the experience, indeed i began to astral project and it wasn't even the presence of some terror that made me flee, it was the sheer fact that i had entered a world completely bizarre to me, and it was REAL, accompanied by a strange sound and a strange sensation.

i think over the course of my life i may become better equipped. for now i think regular yoga practice is a good way forward, it improves the body and mind and is a stable platform for growth. you have to build a strong foundation and i think that's where us trippers often fail.

 

Yeh, there does seem to be a few tumble weeds blowing around.

Sounds interesting. I believe it's a common experience, but one that usually sets in for a few minutes after returning to the body from projection.

The paralysis is said to be frightening for some, but generally there is no need to panic. I have only had very brief experiences myself and i doubt that they were to the same degree or frequency.

AFAIK, the biggest fear barrier is once you have actually projected, after which most people freak out and go straight back to the body. I have not yet begun any work in this area, but am working towards a solid foundation as you say. I'm a fan of shortcuts usually, but too much has happened and i am very wary of going too far, too fast.

I would suggest reading up on the subject to aid in overcoming any fears. Seems like a good oppurtunity, if you can use it to project. It's apparently common to hear a kind of ripping sound as projection occurs.

I would be keen to hear more of your previous experiences, and any progress if you decide to continue in this area, perhaps in a new thread.

Cheers

[ThunderIdeal]

you know, it was just terrifying. i can't describe the feeling but i knew i had left the body instantly, it wasn't just a noise, it was the most alien thing i can imagine. my consciousness had left my body and was experiencing another dimension, within a different body. i should mention that i had been awake for a while and i knew from reading and from hearing stories directly, that being chemically affected usually means you are more vulnerable in there. they pick up on it and come running. i don't mean to cement my fears in place with words like that, i'm just talking okay, it's all speculative, but the fact is that i have some very bad dreams, and i genuinely believe i have been attacked and otherwise bothered by invisible things while i'm awake, and now this sleep paralysis thing adds another element. sometimes i'm not sure whether the sleep paralysis was part of a dream, but sometimes it is definitely real and usually accompanied by a sense of desperation.

i can't use the software anymore but these experiences began one exhausted night, when i was listening to the schumann frequency through headphones as i went to sleep.

i've done plenty of reading on astral projection. it was a serious quest of mine as a young stoner lad, and i reached the threshold a few times, it was always waaaaaaaay too overwhelming. i think there's a lot to be said for getting there with sober meditation, maybe being stoned was the reason i couldn't handle such an energised state. currently i don't rate my ability to meditate anywhere near as good as it used to be, BUT if i could control the fear it might be possible to get there through one of these spontaneous experiences.

happy to continue discussing but i've now laid out most of the basic info.

i've heard your scary story at the other forum but i'm sure everyone here would be interested to hear it at some point.

[ThunderIdeal]

i just remembered, leaving my body happened when i attempted to 'be brave' rather than fighting the paralysis like a foe (it tends to be accompanied by an astral/imaginary foe and summoning all of your will to punch that fucker in the face is about the only way to wake up, as opposed to remaining there and having no memory of what happens next).

it didn't require any prolonged effort. basically the slightest willingness to accept the paralysed state and i was there. from here it's hazy but i think i felt the alien landscape, was overcome by fear (re-entered the paralysed body), then pulled my self together with an intention to explore this state, entered the alien landscape again and attempted some kind of locomotion. at no time was there any visual-type sense, it was all sound and vibration. the sound high pitched, pulsating, i can best describe it as a shimmering sound, a bit like tinnitus except surging through my whole being. i don't remember what happened after trying to move, i think i was overcome by fear again, went back to paralysed body and went to sleep.

oh yeah, lol @ very important parts of the story randomly coming back to me

i was getting ready to go to bed, pretty much gonna have a piss and then go to bed. as i was pissing i started hearing voices. never before and never since have i experienced anything like that, no particular meaning behind it, just loud voices that sounded real. fucking scary shit, and it just hit me out of nowhere, all i wanted was to get to sleep as quickly as possible.

[kayesem]

... it was all sound and vibration. the sound high pitched, pulsating, i can best describe it as a shimmering sound, a bit like tinnitus except surging through my whole being. ...

Not like the pulsing nang sound at all is it?

Apart from a period of extremely intense (mushroom induced) auditory hallucinations, that nang sound is the most alien thing i know. I kind of enjoy it, but it's fairly neutral, not really good or bad to hear it, just tripped out.

A weird thing with it is, in the early days of nangs for me (before combinations with psychs and resulting nang trips) i used to mainly try to describe the nitrous experience as 'consciously going unconscious.'

And funnily enough, years later (a few times over the last 6 - 12 months maybe) i have had experiences while completely straight and sober; laying in bed awake while drifting off to sleep slowly, i have got to a point where i feel like i am on the verge of tipping over into unconscious sleep and have heard the nang sound come in steady and quite clear. There is no mistaking it. I guess it's mostly auditory flanging as the hearing sense stutters before grinding to a halt or something, the sounds of cars passing in the street is nice and helicoptered, but there is something else too, very high pitched pulsating waves which do not seem to relate to any heard sound in the environment.

Anyways, what you're saying seems pretty fucked up, 'specially the hearing voices randomly, that's no fun. Most people upon projecting report looking back down at their body or being in the bathroom or something. Perhaps you didn't quite get out and were stuck halfway in some weird energetic messy sicho with your body? Who knows.

My old man has offered to pay for me to go to Virginia in the states and do the Monroe course. It was amazingly kind of him, but airfares alone are like 2 grand and i find it hard to justify. I thought that although it is about the whole experience and all, the main guiding force of it is just audio played through headphones, so i would do well to get onto that. I found that there are indeed CDs online for like $400 ish, which is heaps but still way less than actually going to the US. The CDs take you through 90% of the course levels too. Just wondering if you or anyone has had experience with them or heard of them. (the proper ones released by the intstitute) I figure it would make sense anyway to try them out first and see what happens from there.

As for my scary experience, i would rather not discuss it any more at this stage. I think that i got all the advice that i needed for now, and will be working straight to try and build a more solid foundation to have under me for the future.

Eventually, i know the only way to resolve it for good is to attempt to return to that place, and to try and accept it and love it as part of my self, or something to that effect.

I thank my lucky stars that i was still in one piece after the intial experience, and that after i came down to earth i have been able to continue living in a fairly sound frame of mind. Also, that i can still dose myself with a good set and setting and have no ill effects. As for getting back to that place, i think there is a strong feeling that goes with it, and that if i follow that feeling i will be taken there again. The feeling came up a while ago when i was peaking on a medium to high dose mushroom journey, and it scared the fuck out of me, enough to really push me to know the truth. At the time, nothing bad happened and it didn't last long, but it was just like that pure evil presence hanging about and it certainly had the same energetic signature as before. I decided 100% that i needed to know whether it was an external being/s or not, and that i would most likely have to go back into it someday to know once and for all.

I will report once i have overcome it, and no doubt it will be the hardest thing i have ever attempted in my entire life, and perhaps past lives also. I will never truly rest easy until i know the truth though, that's for sure, and perhaps after the fact too, if all else fails.

Anyway, our experiences are probably quite similar in some respects, and i feel i can certainly relate to any fears or senses of demonic forces, so i wish you all the best with it, and hope that you can find a peaceful resolve, whether by avoidance or pushing on through and finding a way. Avoidance would seem to be only a temporary option though.

[mutant]

Thanks for the suggestion Rabael, I too wanted to get back here

hey kaysem welcome!

you 're making some interesting, albeit naive or self-contradictory IMO arguements. But this is just substrate for the discussion to unfold more.

Some of you guys seem not to like the fact the fear is maybe the strongest element in life. Like it or not, fear makes you run for food, run for your life, stay in a shitty relationship for years or be religious. These are only random examples. So, wheareas in your post, kaysem, replying to the pyramid implication, you don't like the idea of being ruled by fear, in your previous post, where you're talking about the fact that some psychedelic 'spirits' feed and replicate love, and some demonic 'spirits' feed on fear, you totally accept the power of fear over us, not only that : you almost regard fear one of the two colours, one of the two powers that rule the world, the black one. So which one is it?

:ill.brain:

talkin love depends on how you define it

and talking reality depends of how you define it

so.... everything depends on how you define it?

not really. Love is indeed crucial in humans, and controversial too, just because indeed most people define it in their views. And love can destroy too. I don't care about the debate of wheather love is essential or 'supplementary'. Well I do care - but I think its a bit offtopic.

Impersonal physiocratic cynicism can blow up most idealists arguements with solid facts in my logic, natural history, anthropology and then some. That is not the point really, it just reveals the two camps of thought maybe.. But still, bold signs of almost unconditional 'love' can be traced in certain species of the animal kingdom, f.e. dogs. So physiocracy doesn't exclude love, only doesn't place it high up in the hierarchy, and certainly not higher than fear, with this I agree .

=====

kaysem you compared the trip elves with the dream spirits people see, but I can see a non-analogy in the comparison or a logic fallacy. Waking up from a dream you know what you saw is a dream, generated by your mind, sub-conscious, whatever, but not 'real' or external. Same is with a trip, kind of. For me. In fact the type of people who would tend to explain their dreams as messages or apocalypse or something external are probably the same that would tend to regard psychedelics-induced spirits/elves real.

You seem unsure if it's head-generated or really external. Some people have stated 'it might be in the head' yet seem to dismiss the arguements on why all these definately seem to be head phenomena essentially.

You claim to question whether these are a doorway to other dimentions, wheather they are alien on eitherwise real entities, or spirits [supernatural realm] or something more logical and simple, like the 'god circuit' activated producing such visions is susceptible or 'tuned-in' individuals.

I argue it's because you are susceptible and/or a believer in your sober life, that the visions and spirits 'could be' real, external. It's the same arguement and discussion about whether god is real and external or human and a head resident. No real answer or proof exists, except in some of my rhetorics that claim that science has mroe or less found what god and religious phenomena are, so there's nothing really external about them, apart from the subjective perception they're external.

here's another arguement of sorts...

There are people prone to psychosis, suggestion, OCDers, messiah complex, prone to weirdness and conspiracy theories , freekos and acidheads, and not surprisingly, not few of those people are among the ranks of 'psychedelic community' . Those type of attitudes are so common in fact that I decided to coin the term "psychedelic theism" : a crossover of religious and psychedelic spirituality.

I am asking the believers. We got many reports on elves, yes, some seem similar.

Do we rule out of our research the obviously mentally distorted, or note the weird-proneness as in doing a case study... or we accept their reports of the supernatural like a proper report? Does mental illness exist? does it inter-relate to these phenomena?

TI>

Sleep paralysis related.

If you really want to research this, doing it the proper way would pay more. Don't expect to know what it is when it catches you 'on the sleep' as it happens randomly by itslef, having you by surprise. Use the proper tools to induce it to yourself, have a sitter and be prepared. But sensing a kind of terror suggests there's some sort of incompatibility and/or need to approach extremely cautiously when dissos [planty, shroomy,gassy or powdery] are concerned.

No "leaving the body" ever occurs in fact. You believers see/experience it as such 'cause you're susceptible. What more likely happens is that the circuits that wire the brain with the sense of self to the body and give us humans the exclusive characteristic of self-awareness is numbed, consciousness, body control and body feelings more or less switch off. in extreme cases the sense of self and the sense of body vanish 100%. This is mostly likely the real ego death of all reports. I don't think classics can do this, and even if they could, it would be in extreme doses and then again not reliable and potentially risky. Anyway, that is IME the felling when the brain trips within itself, causing some very real hallucinations, very much reminiscent to a lucid dream. It was quite surprising and enjoyful to find that I could partly dictate my trips/visions/hallucination content on low end big dose amanita .

In fact maybe the believers approach would be helpful to a godless MF like me while delving in classics, while a sceptics approach to dissociatives could also be of some help for a believer delving into disso state.

The separation itself feels funny and non-familiar: even if you know/feel the body ain't going nowhere [read: having a sitter], you simply don't know where the mind is going... especially the first time. it's only obvious it's going somewhere if you chill. Not sure what happens if you surrender nervous and agitated. I never felt threatened or even anxious in these states [sD/AM]. But fuck yeah, for you believers, various sorts of animals, people and spirits might show up , and boy hallucinations are so real, no wonder so many people are scared of dissos, especially longlasting ones like amanitas

There's one real thing to worry about of course: your body. While your soul didn't really exit the body, just tripping within the mind, your body might 'decide' to do something. Sitters make sure that won't happen. While SD [exctract smoked] is so short for exploring the realms of dissociation, it is interesting in that it can virtually wipe out your existance for a good 3-5 minutes then have you reborn of shorts. Amanita muscaria is lots different and can keep you there for a long time and even [low end breakthrough dose] have you in and out in waves of 15 min trips or something, this going on for hours.

last but not least,

I suspect that in the same way someone with psychotic tendencies risks his mental being by using classic psychs, especially when doing so recklessly, similar risks exist with people with tendencies to DP/DR symptoms using disso drugs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_%28psychology%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder

I am not saying the drugs cannot also help in some occasions, I am saying this seems pretty risky.

I remember talking to some acquaintance, she was asking entusiastically about about amanitas and as soon as I described what it's about, especially the disso states of breakthrough doses, she stated she was scared of it, and had no interest in exploring ever. It turned out she had an inclination as a child to these states [out of body and such] and she was scared of these states as shit.

Such a person , depending in culture, could be a shaman, a priest, a loony or a scared human that will never explore the potential of theses territories. But if we're discussing real life, and the cultural frame must be taken into account, 'western' civilization doesn't like this new agey mumbo jumbo much. And these OBE explorations are known to be dangerous too.

Dissociatives/dissociation are very related with death and fear of death too, I think, so that's where our dear fear comes again!

Hope this rant was of some interest, looking forward to seeing some feedback

Edited January 3, 2011 by mutant

[mutant]

i just remembered, leaving my body happened when i attempted to 'be brave' rather than fighting the paralysis like a foe (it tends to be accompanied by an astral/imaginary foe and summoning all of your will to punch that fucker in the face is about the only way to wake up, as opposed to remaining there and having no memory of what happens next).

it didn't require any prolonged effort. basically the slightest willingness to accept the paralysed state and i was there

very very like what my first moments of breakthrough were like. For me it was like this: I am laid and know it's happening, and it's happening now. As I chill I feel the pull, I was falling into something... probably into myself, as it prooved. it was much more gentle , not alarming like salvia pull... and in the first 3 or 5 seconds, I resisted one or two times. Then, I let go, and I instantly went in for my first of a long series of trips

Edited January 3, 2011 by mutant

[woof woof woof]

hahaha - the salvia pull! I figure that that dimention is as close as you we will be to being dead without having to really die physically. Am talking 20x xtract hit of course. very exhilirating. and yet I get the feeling that it is but a mere fraction of the whole fractilized / abstract beyond that we will preceive when the final moment comes.

getting a glimpse of the beyond is of course WOW. but that is nothing. I strongly suggest to meditate and focus at being at total peace. Only meditation gives absolute results.

"Drugs are hardcore man,.... they are a stepping stone to harder stuff like meditation".

[botanika]

But still, bold signs of almost unconditional 'love' can be traced in certain species of the animal kingdom, f.e. dogs. So physiocracy doesn't exclude love, only doesn't place it high up in the hierarchy, and certainly not higher than fear, with this I agree .

 

Dogs though are fairly unique in that much of that behaviour has been bred or evolved alongside humans. Dogs can display all kinds of intelligence and communication between them and humans but they dont really go and use that between each other. A dog may indeed have feelings of love for its owner - but does it have similar feelings for other dogs? What do domesticated dogs dream about and what to do grey wolves dream about? An even wilder question would be 'do domesticated dogs believe in god?'. Dogs have had such a profound (if not critical) relationship with humans it would be fascinating to study their subconscious perception.

I get what you're saying, but the topic is not about basic survival of the body in the physical world, it's about the health of the soul (and i s'pose the mind) in other realms.

Then you will have to prove that the soul and those other realms exist as a physical reality. Otherwise it is still about the the body in the physical world.

You could also argue that love is the motivation to find food, have a home and have sex. A love for life.

Maybe in the 60's ;)

A stronger argument is that love is an ecological adaption that allows greater nurturing of the young in particular. It's more related to complex social behaviour and bonding rather than a core driving force for food, shelter and sex.

We might know that they're not real in this world, but when we are dreaming we tend to be totally convinced that the world we are in is real. If we are lucky enough to catch ourselves out, we can clearly see that we are dreaming and that we can stop being scared and dissolve that monster because we are the creators of our dream world, whether we are conscious of it or otherwise, and why would we consciously choose to create such unpleasant things?

Not sure. It could be a primal thing. Car accident - we dont want to look but we do. Unpleasant things happen and we have to deal with them. Often in dream and pyschedelic states we experience far worse (or better!) than what we would experience in physical reality and maybe thats the point. Im already prepared to come to work naked for example haha. Dreams and psychedelic realms wouldn't be much use to us (or the plants and animals that contain pychotropics) if they weren't convincing.

You imply that elves are not real and suggest to get back to what is real? But we don't know what is real. The only information we have about our waking reality; has been collected by the senses and presented back to the senses. But the senses themselves are a part of it all, and can never be on the outside looking in.

You don't physically smell, photograph or touch elves though while tripping. You may be totally convinced they are real as a normal sleeping dream may totally convince you you are falling off a 20 storey building. But you wake up. Or the DMT trip's chemical reaction fades away. If in waking reality you fall off a 20 storey building you die. The seperation is only fuzzy if you want it to be. You can be on the inside looking out and mythology (of which I see DMT elves as part of) is an effective connection between these experiences.

Edited January 4, 2011 by botanika

[kayesem]

hey kaysem welcome!

Hey, cheers

you 're making some interesting, albeit naive or self-contradictory IMO arguements. But this is just substrate for the discussion to unfold more.

Oh, crap! I am making arguments? Oops, my bad. I was merely wanting to ponder and discuss. I should be more careful.

Some of you guys seem not to like the fact the fear is maybe the strongest element in life. Like it or not, fear makes you run for food, run for your life, stay in a shitty relationship for years or be religious.

Yes, i also think that fear is a very strong element of life. It's not that i don't like that fact, just that i am not a fan of having to endure huge amounts of the emotion itself, especially if it is unnecessary, unhealthy and unwise to do so.

Implying that fear itself has any power to make us do anything is a bit odd to me. I believe, as with any other emotion which arises in our experience, that we always have a choice to make before any action is taken.

If you are happy to say that fear 'made you stay in a shitty relationship for years' , would you also be happy to say that anger made you smash your girlfriend in the face? How convenient, to be at the whim of your emotions and thereby have no responsibility for what are very definitely your own actions.

Sorry if that was a bit off the deep end, but fear doesn't make me do anything. IMO.

The order is something like - Perception, Emotional response, Choice, Action.

So, wheareas in your post, kaysem, replying to the pyramid implication, you don't like the idea of being ruled by fear,

No. Why should i like that idea, or the idea of "being ruled" by any other emotion?

in your previous post, where you're talking about the fact that some psychedelic 'spirits' feed and replicate love, and some demonic 'spirits' feed on fear, you totally accept the power of fear over us, not only that : you almost regard fear one of the two colours, one of the two powers that rule the world, the black one. So which one is it?

I mentioned the whole spirit feeding thing because someone had posted on page 1 that that had appeared to be the situation in their case, and also that i had recieved similar advice regarding such situations.

My point was that holding onto that fear would create more fear, and vice versa. I don't see how i have accepted that fear has some kind of power over us. ?

The order of things still applies to psychedelic states; - Perception, Emotional response, Choice, Action. But in that context, any action will not be a physical one made with the body.

So; Perception = demons, Emotional response = fear, Choice = any number of options, Action = depends on choice.

In this situation, choosing to remain fearful is detrimental and appears to lock us in, but it is a choice none-the-less.

[kayesem]

Impersonal physiocratic cynicism can blow up most idealists arguements with solid facts in my logic, natural history, anthropology and then some.

What are you talking about there?

kaysem you compared the trip elves with the dream spirits people see, but I can see a non-analogy in the comparison or a logic fallacy.

Yeh, i was just ranting a bit. I thought i had a point but it didn't come out right.

The analogy is in the perception of what appears to be external beings, that's all.

 

Waking up from a dream you know what you saw is a dream, generated by your mind, sub-conscious, whatever, but not 'real' or external. Same is with a trip, kind of. For me. In fact the type of people who would tend to explain their dreams as messages or apocalypse or something external are probably the same that would tend to regard psychedelics-induced spirits/elves real.

Not sure what you're saying there.

I mostly regard my dreams as random subconscious junk, but with a potential that i am not yet harnessing ie; lucidity and so on.

FWIW, i had a random dream a few months ago. It featured a quick image of my car where it is always parked out the back of my place. In the dream image, the car had been moved backwards by about a metre of so.

When i woke up, i remembered it and thought not much of it, apart from that it was a bit odd, but all dreams are. I went to the toilet and passed the back door, looking out at my car and the yard as i passed, as i usually do. The car was still there, still in the same spot.

I went about my day, and then late in the afternoon, i went passed again and my car had been moved backwards by about a metre, exactly like in my dream from the night before.

Apparently, what i had is called a precognitive dream. My housemates just laughed and told me to dream the lotto numbers next time

I guess my point there is, in my experience, things like that can shake you up a bit. You wake up and go "Yeh, i can see now that it wasn't 'real' or external, but then it appears in your 'real' and external world.

You seem unsure if it's head-generated or really external. Some people have stated 'it might be in the head' yet seem to dismiss the arguements on why all these definately seem to be head phenomena essentially.

Well, if you have ever had a dream where you thought you were awake, then you can understand why. It seems very 'real' at the time. It can suck balls too, like when you get up and go to work, only to wake up and find you have to do it all over again becasue you're still in your bed.

AFAIK, our perception of our external waking world is head generated, And you'd only be using your head if you were trying to say otherwise. Take your head off, and the entire universe disappears for all you know. Off your head man.

You claim to question whether these are a doorway to other dimentions, wheather they are alien on eitherwise real entities, or spirits [supernatural realm] or something more logical and simple, like the 'god circuit' activated producing such visions is susceptible or 'tuned-in' individuals.

Yes. The question was concerning percieved evil beings that proceed to attack you somewhat relentlessly.

I am, for now, satisfied that all perceptions are only mirrors. That is the theory, wish me luck for the practice.

I argue it's because you are susceptible and/or a believer in your sober life, that the visions and spirits 'could be' real, external. It's the same arguement and discussion about whether god is real and external or human and a head resident. No real answer or proof exists, except in some of my rhetorics that claim that science has mroe or less found what god and religious phenomena are, so there's nothing really external about them, apart from the subjective perception they're external.

You'd be right about the first one. Not sure about your 'god circuit', but on my behalf, i have admittedly taken way myself way beyond the intended dosage range of psychs at times, without any trip sitter and including negative set and settings. That left me susceptible to my experiences.

I could never in a million years have concieved of the 'beings' that i have met. Whether i was open to the possibility before hand, i can't say that i know for sure either way.

Getting back to dreams, i fall for it almost every time. Even with seemingly (in hindsight) obvious clues during the dream that i am not in the waking world, i almost always fail to click.

The "subjective perception they're external" is what we are dealing with, and the proof is in the pudding. I do not care for scientific 'proof' that can be measured and calculated using 'real external world' instruments. I care about the actual experience. If i can go into the same experience and alter my response to it, perhaps i will then be able to alter my perception of it too and realise what is 'really' happening.

Do we rule out of our research the obviously mentally distorted, or note the weird-proneness as in doing a case study... or we accept their reports of the supernatural like a proper report? Does mental illness exist? does it inter-relate to these phenomena?

Good questions. I think there are inter-reltions, but i can't really comment. IMO they should ideally be taken into account, but AFAIK we don't know enough about conditions such as schizophrenia to make anything out to be black and white.

Dissociatives/dissociation are very related with death and fear of death too, I think, so that's where our dear fear comes again!

Hope this rant was of some interest, looking forward to seeing some feedback

Yeh. A friend of my mothers is apparently dying rapidly of cancer as we speak (type), so i have been thinking a bit about this lately, because apparently she cannot accept that she is dying and most likely is in a lot of fear.

I was wondering; is the fear of death also a fear of life?

The two are so closely linked. Death is the only guarantee of our lives, and we cannot even set foot in the street without literally risking losing our life. Interesting also, is that people who have had very close brushes with death are often the ones most happy to be alive and living life fully. Even more interesting, is the people who have been clinically dead but come back to life often report that they no longer fear death in the slightest.

When questioning people, in my experience they mostly seem to agree that the thing they fear more is actually not death itself, but the process by which it happens, which is fair enough really.

Anyways.

"Drugs are hardcore man,.... they are a stepping stone to harder stuff like meditation".

Then you will have to prove that the soul and those other realms exist as a physical reality. Otherwise it is still about the the body in the physical world.

That would be about as pointless as me demanding that you prove that they do not exist.

[ThunderIdeal]

K:

quick response for now. there's at least one interesting nang thread here. i don't want to get into it but while i kind of agree with your 'neutral trippyness' statement, i also agree with others that there is some kind of link with other times, or maybe even other timelines. don't know if it's worth continuing trying to *grasp* at it. interestingly the particular sound i get these days has a close cousin in a little part of a song that i made years ago, most likely a preset.

no, the sound was more like a tiny squeaky wheel being pushed along very fast, but with a really fictional feel about it and i'm not sure if it's right to just call it a sound. i think i only moved a small amount, but that doesn't need to be the explanation for not seeing in there. doesn't robert monroe among others say that it often takes people a few visits to get their senses about them? is that the monroe you're referring to? there is some kind of 'astral projection society' in brisbane that is open to anyone, they use his old guide book/s as far as i know.