Spiritual Insights and the path

[t st tantra]

i will attempt to give birth to my exp of the' thousand words'.

pls bear with me it may be a difficult birthing process and i will do it as i can.

ass above ,sow below.

blah,blah blah

insert warning on transformative processes

blah,blah.blah.....

at 18 ,cid and i met inside my body at the orgasm where my skin kissed the world,I met NOT I.

after many years of chasing my chakras i found myself above my head ,seemingly out of my body,residing in a chakra located there.

more recently i was heeled to some extent,removed many blockages and opened myself to the free flow of god.for i had realizes i was not just star stuff but god stuff, i was made of god,as is everything.

next i found a connection downwards,below the base chakra to the earth,mother and beast.

then a connection with the sky the mother womb,the great father, the whole, the all, the one,the source etc

there i was suspended between eath and sky ,in the middle way i had felt within me.

not beast of the earth or angel of the sky but a man, and also all three.

somewhere in here i get lost because i am all filled with god and dont know where i am if everything is god.

the marriage of love and intellect

i draw the energy from the eath up to my heart chakra while drawing the energy down from the sky to my third eye.i feel love fill my heart and intellect fill my third eye.a plasma sun bursts forth in my throat chakra and i am in bliss.......

ok,it's not a thousand words cos its only the abridged middle of the story but i'll try to do some more if you want later?

t s t .

Edited September 10, 2006 by t st tantra

[chilli]

Does anyone else sometimes wonder if we're all just a bunch of delusional misfits flirting with insanity?

[chilli]

Okay, maybe not...

As for my take on 'spirituality' as it is commonly defined, I am in the throes of agnosticism. There are so many ideas about spirituality in the world, and most of them incompatible with one another; even within particular sects, e.g. Christianity, Buddhism, Ethnobotany, there are a lot of diverse and often conflicting views.

It seems to me that to believe in anything one must either believe in one thing and reject whatever doesn’t fit into that system (fundamentalism), or to believe in everything and ultimately jettison logic and common sense (new age).

If spirituality is simply a matter of interpretation, with no actual correspondence with an ultimate reality, then what’s the point? If it is just a certain feeling, then how do we differentiate spirituality from sheer emotionalism? If it is one particular belief, then how the hell do we find out what it is?

Regardless of all this, and probably because of my quasi-Christian upbringing, I find myself agreeing with Botanika when he says “Karma is real, what goes around comes around. The easiest way to help yourself is to help others.” These correlate with the Bible’s teachings that “whatever one sows, that will he also reap” and “give, and it shall be given to you… with the measure that you use it will also be measured to you”.

I believe that the best way to live is to love God by loving others and to be selfless and considerate and giving, to put others needs before my own and to be genuinely self effacing and kind. The trouble I have is that I find it almost impossible to do these things with pure motives, or with any kind of consistency. Furthermore, when I look out at the world, it seems everyone else has the same problem.

Therefore, although I also tend to agree with Botanika’s statement that “most people are just looking for simple happiness, good company and food in their bellies”, I would qualify it by adding that most people are also selfish bloody arseholes.

[-YT-]

Chilli it is definatly true that there are many spiritual teachings/beliefs/philosophies and also Religion, Research and look into what meshes with yourself and the beliefs you hold and maybe build on it from there, keep open to the possibilities and you will never know what path you find yourself traversing. Alot of religion/spiritual philosophy etc, doesnt fit with most people. Some things that are true for some arent so for others, which is kool as long as others respect and acknowledge that persons beliefs and doesnt belittle and try to push convictions on them. Most people are selfish forsure and it is an extremely hard challenge to act towards them with love, selflessness and honesty with out leaving oneself open to manipulation and hurt/pain, that said tis a worthy challenge to live . I do think most people are looking for simple happiness in whatever form it maybe from work/hobbies/religion, comfortable lives... But is simple happiness what we trully want? or more to move beyond the bounderies to trully know the spirit. Surely life isnt just simply what we interpret or think it to be.

Always question.

Act without thoughts of payment/recognition just for the simple act of living this great and mysterious life on this amazing Earth

P.S. Are we really human...

[ramon]

I believe that the best way to live is to love God by loving others and to be selfless and considerate and giving, to put others needs before my own and to be genuinely self effacing and kind. The trouble I have is that I find it almost impossible to do these things with pure motives, or with any kind of consistency. Furthermore, when I look out at the world, it seems everyone else has the same problem.

Whilst having pure motives is obviously better , doing it is what is important.

The Dali Lama uses the term being wisely selfish.

That is where you help others for the good karma it brings you.

This helps establish the habits and also reinforces the concept of Karma.

[ramon]

It seems to me that to believe in anything one must either believe in one thing and reject whatever doesn’t fit into that system (fundamentalism), or to believe in everything and ultimately jettison logic and common sense (new age).

I would call myself a Buddhist. But not because I have read Buddhist text and decided to believe in them but because had my own beliefs and the Buddhist texts were what best correlated with them.

I have found myself thinking alot about going with the flow in the recent months.

So I should probably start thinking myself as a Taoist instead.

[chilli]

Whilst having pure motives is obviously better , doing it is what is important.

The Dali Lama uses the term being wisely selfish.

That is where you help others for the good karma it brings you.

This helps establish the habits and also reinforces the concept of Karma.

Yeah, interesting, I was saying something similar to my brother a few days ago. He was saying "what's the point of helping others if you're doing it for selfish reasons," and I said if you just start doing it, you enjoy it, and then you want to do it more. It's not necessarily selfish, but it just feels good to "do the rightie" as an old friend used to say.

I still shy away from the idea of doing it for the good karma it brings you, because it can lead (or spring from) an attitude of doing something for someone to get something out of it for yourself. Nothing unique there. But yeah, I agree insofar as the good that comes back is some kind of inherent law of the universe... or something.

[t st tantra]

Does anyone else sometimes wonder if we're all just a bunch of delusional misfits flirting with insanity?

youre just 'uncertain and afraid' as you aknowledge.

my experience is there seems to be an emerging thread from the heart of all spiritual experience.

it has to do with our relation ship with and experience of god.

some suggest humans are born without the connection to god/nature that other life forms have.

now it seems the connections are there but need to be awakened.

i'm finding myself less uncertain and afraid as my connection increases.

and as the main line of this thread indicates our karma,relating and actions are important.

and in that regard i apologize to those of you afected by my current role of a 'relatively pure fool'.

i am a sinner ,too proud and too insensitive.though i thought myself a child at play!

t s t .

[IndigoNative]

big frown upside down face smile I just spent half the day at tafe righting up this rather long post and it appears i had to relog in ? and pretty mush lost the whole thing which is sataniclly neato.

dam you karmic forces,

but i suppose is some abstract way i redeemed myself

will try to do the whole thing in the next week.

[botanika]

An interesting question I asked myself the other day is "Am I actually any more or less spiritual than I was when I was a child, or am I just better at articulating it?"

[devance]

Well Bot your use as a biological reproduction unit is apparently starting to sink in.

Just kidding Bot.

Its true that as a parent not all instincts will last.

Intellectual convictions can soon pass as well,

So there is the self manipulation .

As a self mind technique use.

The way I view it is the higher brain function.

And the lower medulla which can be geared to at least 3 levels.

Sleep

endorphin type

cocaine type.

Sleep isn't just a brain stem intiation but part of a dreaming state which is happenning with the higher cerebral cortex.

Both happenning.

As a visualization technique think the higher cortex as always a part and can gear in the brain stem gears like a transmission to a car.

[chilli]

Hey Young Tripper,

Sorry, I somehow didn't see your post the other day, Thanks for the input and encouraging words...

I have been reading and thinking about philosophy and theology for some years now, and the more I study the more complicated it seems to become. I have noticed I tend to swing on a pendulum between a skeptical, rationalistic approach, and a more zealous, mystical pursuit of God. Back and forth, every couple of years, sometimes more frequently... Perhaps the two can somehow be integrated.

I think I understand what you mean when you say that "surely life isnt just simply what we interpret or think it to be," but I am having difficulty reconciling this with your earlier suggestion to "research and look into what meshes with yourself and the beliefs you hold."

For example, I have been reading a little more about Buddhism lately, and there are many parts of it that appeal to me, with the most notable exception being the denial of the reality of the individual self. Conversely, the Christian beliefs I held for most of my early years also have elements that appeal to me, and others that I find troubling, to say the least.

What I always try to keep in mind though, is that I don't expect ultimate reality to necessarily be appealing to me, and I try to be more skeptical about beliefs that do make sense to me in an attempt to evade pure subjectivism. What I mean is that I try to be careful of building up beliefs that simply fit in with my presuppositions about reality, and rather turn it around to examine those assumptions in light of the data I receive from the world around and inside me.

I am making it complicated again, but the world is complicated, and easy answers are sometimes too easy. Then again, simple does not necessarily mean simplistic.

One more question, Young Tripper...

What do you mean when you say "Some things that are true for some arent so for others"?

I know, I know...

"nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Chilli

[chilli]

youre just 'uncertain and afraid' as you aknowledge.

my experience is there seems to be an emerging thread from the heart of all spiritual experience.

it has to do with our relation ship with and experience of god.

some suggest humans are born without the connection to god/nature that other life forms have.

now it seems the connections are there but need to be awakened.

i'm finding myself less uncertain and afraid as my connection increases.

and as the main line of this thread indicates our karma,relating and actions are important.

and in that regard i apologize to those of you afected by my current role of a 'relatively pure fool'.

i am a sinner ,too proud and too insensitive.though i thought myself a child at play!

t s t .

Hi tst,

You tantalized me by saying that "my experience is there seems to be an emerging thread from the heart of all spiritual experience. it has to do with our relation ship with and experience of god," but you didn't say what this emerging thread was! (or did you?)

BTW, I have long been fascinated by the role of the fool, have you ever read anything by Os Guinness? That is who I first heard clearly articulate the concept. (google, google)

The second fool is the fool bearer, the person who is ridiculed but resilient, the comic butt who gets slapped but is none the worse for the slapping. In Christian terms, the second fool is the one who is called a fool by the world, but who neither deserves it nor is destroyed by it. What is important, since it links the second fool to the third, is the secret of this resilience. The quicksilver spirit of the second fool springs from the Christian vision of the discrepancy between the apparent and the real, between the way things are, and the way things will be. Knowing this discrepancy, the fool bearer is always able to bounce back, and his laughter is neither bitter nor escapist, but an expression of faith. It is the kind of laughter which absorbs pain and adversity and, seeing beyond them in situations of despair, becomes a sign of hope.

The second fool is the "fool for Christ". from the Apostle Paul to Francis of Assisi and Clare to Thomas a Kempis down to the despised and persecuted believers of the 20th Century, the great tradition of fools for Christ has never lacked an heir and will play its part here too. As Reinhold Schneider wrote from his experience as a courageous Christian poet in the German Resistance movement of the thirties, "Anyone who is against the Spirit of the Age in the name of the Lord must expect that spirit to take its revenge." Wherever the gospel has been in contention they have stood like lightning rods in the storm. But seizing the initiative and turning the tables was never meant to be their brief.

Table turning is the forte of the third fool. This is the person who appears a fool, but is actually the fool maker, the one who in being ridiculous reveals. The third fool is the jester: building up expectations in one direction, he shatters them with his punch-line, reversing the original meaning and revealing an entirely different one. Masquerading perhaps as the comic butt, he turns the tables on the tyranny of names and labels and strikes subversively for freedom and for truth. From the apostle Paul (again) to Nicholas of Cusa to Erasmus to G K Chesterton, this strain of brilliant Christian has never quite died out, yet it has never been as common as the first fool nor as honoured as the second.

"Who then is wise enough for this moment in history?" my source said gripping my arm. "The one who has always been wise enough to play the fool. For when the wise are foolish, the wealthy poor, and the godly worldly, it takes a special folly to subvert such foolishness, a special wit to teach true wisdom." When the significance of this dawned on him, he said, it was as if he had been caught off guard and catapulted to the one conclusion he had not expected: all along it had been he who played the fool while the fool maker had been 'the Adversary' (Christ)

Chilli

[devance]

Seems a like total destruction of terms for any type of discussion for spirituality or even a structure.

[botanika]

Well Bot your use as a biological reproduction unit is apparently starting to sink in.

Just kidding Bot.

Im getting married in Oct - I will be more than just a reproduction unit in coming years... I will move into the 'lovable old dork' spiritual phase of life.

I better buy some cheap tartan slippers and start building a shed...

"the man who is happy with nothing is the man who has everything"

[devance]

Well Bot. I can only envy the lucky mate.

A few words of advice.

The ectasty of love is soon replaced by the ectasy of loving a child.

Very time consumming.

But has many rewards.

But very time consuming.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Second always be around or build one a fallout shelter.

No joke trust me on that.

It has been useful in WW1, WW2 and there will be a WW3.

Something to think about before rather than later.

You would have children in school and expect all would be taken care of as a spiritual person your are not considering nuclear war as a possibility.

I'd be happy to have a shed for potting plants and wearing bunny floopy shoes.

Or a mate that thought so.

Too late in the day for me.

[chilli]

Seems a like total destruction of terms for any type of discussion for spirituality or even a structure.

Yeah, why should spirituality engage our intellect? Isn't it just some kind of emotion?

[chilli]

The ectasty of love is soon replaced by the ectasy of loving a child.

Very time consumming.

That's part of the reason why my wife and I don't have any kids. Another part is that the planet's already grossly overpopulated, and another part is that there's so many needy kids already out there.

[-YT-]

Hey Chilli, All i offer is my thoughts on such matters.. i dont think anything should be taken for granted as certainties..

My statements can seem somewhat paradoxical not unlike this mysterious world, What i ment by "surely life isnt just simply what we interpret or think it to be,"

The main idea was just to make you question yourself, beliefs, authority, science etc after all since birth we are flooded with images and ideas of whats what and come to interpret the way we have been "taught" too interpret from parents, society, total saturation of advertising & media. In such a great and vast world things arent what they seem surely there is more then what we see with our eyes and hear with our ears..Things we have learnt are just that.. learnt - it doesnt make them real. Things can be felt, like the feeling you get when you meet someone like a certainty of them or of a situation... beyond thinking and anaylsing and internal dialogue.. like an opening of the awareness to the connectedness of everything you come to feel it more.

"research and look into what meshes with yourself and the beliefs you hold."

just an idea a begining point maybe? somewhere to start from and as you slowly come to gain more knowledge and amass experiences things might change and snowball from there until you feel your being pulled towards it, feeling less afraid and uncertain.

I found alot of Jung's text good and the philosophy of Empiricism - Theory based on Direct observation and experience. Only you can experience your own reality and what if anything holds substance and truth out there.. Whats real for you might no be so for others in the sense that expereicnes and interpretations vary so much in this great world, but i do think that it is all connected in someway us and how our paths cross and meet.. i have no idea how it all works and dont think i ever will but i can only smile, laugh and embrace it all.

Go out and live! laugh, cry, be filled with joy and love of this life this earth these amazing beings we call friends and family - embrace life

"Yeah, why should spirituality engage our intellect? Isn't it just some kind of emotion?"

Maybe it engages our intellect so we can make it more managable/resonable so we can understand or learn its meaning.. if meanings is what you are after

[SaBReT00tH]

Does anyone else sometimes wonder if we're all just a bunch of delusional misfits flirting with insanity?

A FOAF felt like this several nights ago whilst on an MJ session. Actually felt that this feeling of 10,000 voices talking in his head at once was insanity. Also, whilst on a Cubensis session in Amsterdam he felt like he was riding a rollercoaster of sanity, attempting to stay on it, knowing that if he doesn't he will definitely fall into the brink of insanity during the experience.

[IndigoNative]

Does anyone else sometimes wonder if we're all just a bunch of delusional misfits flirting with insanity?

That is to say we where ever sane in the first place

How far do you look back to define sanity?

Do you look at the general populace and define that as sanity becasue if you do then all your defining is the sanity of a sheep only aware of the blind dedication of following the sheep infront and feeling pride and authority of being infront of the sheep behind.

We are the explorers who have overcome our fear of rejection and denial at the hands of the favoured and beloved, the peaceful warriors who search to find what little sanity is trully left in this world so that to the greater quest we can find the peace and harmorny that pushes us on this journey... or atleast thats my opinion.

Insanity is the destruction by domination of our free will and of nature at the hands of but mere selfish children who would squander the spirit with the laughter of there own ignorance.

In such a great and vast world things arent what they seem surely there is more then what we see with our eyes and hear with our ears..Things we have learnt are just that.. learnt - it doesnt make them real. Things can be felt, like the feeling you get when you meet someone like a certainty of them or of a situation... beyond thinking and anaylsing and internal dialogue.. like an opening of the awareness to the connectedness of everything you come to feel it more.

Right on brother can i get an Amen The carrots surelly have Consiousness Preach it Hallalooya

I think that adequetlly sums up spirituallty

Cant help but feel this post is a bit aggresive but had to vent my anger after reading "The Hopi surival kit" which pretty much tells how civilisation and its assumption of superior intelligence threw its own ignorance destroyed such a proud and respectful people trully sadening.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Serapis

[IndigoNative]

Been reading this book " Teachings of Zen" and thought i might post some sayings that caught my eye

Free Flowing

All things are free flowing, untrammeled --- what bondage is there,what entanglement? You create your own difficulty and ease therein. The mind source pervades the ten directions with one continuity; those of the most excellent faculties understand naturally.

Tzu-hu (800-880)

Independence

There is no other task but to know your own original face. This is called independence; the spirit is clear and free. If you say there is some particular doctrine or patriarchy, you'll be totally cheated. Just look into your heart; there is a trancendental clarity. Just have no greed and no dependency and you will immediately attain certainty.

Yen-t'ou (828-887)

I think this sums up the thread title

Natural

To speak of practicing the path is an expression of encouragement, a term of inducement; there has never been any doctrine to give people, just transmission of various expedient techniques. These are for expressing the essential idea, to get people to know their own minds. Ultimately there is no doctrine to get, no path to practice. therefore it is said, "The path of enlightenment is natural."

Lung-ya (834-920)

The Great Task

As long as you have not accomplished the great task and are not in communion with the bloodline of the source, you must avoid memorizing sayings and living in conceptual consciousness. Has it not been said, "Concepts act as robbers, consciousness becomes waves"? Everyone has been swept away and drowned. There is no freedom in that.

If you have not mastered the great task, nothing compares to stopping, in the sense of quite cessation, the purifying and quieting of the body and mind. At all times avoid dwelling obsessively on things, and it will be easy to unveil this.

Ku-shan (d.ca. 940)

What is Disturbing You

What is disturbing you and making you uneasy is that there are things outside and mind inside. therefore even when the ordinary and the holy are one reality, there still remains a barrier of view. So it is said that as long as views remain you are ordinary; when feelings are forgotten you're a buddha. I advise you , don't seek reality, just stop views.

Fa-yen (885-958)

The Normal Mind

Tung-shan was asked, "The normal mind is the way; what is the normal mind?"

He replied, "Not picking things up along the road."

tung-shen Shou-ch'u (ca.910/15-990/95)

I was going to add the last one The Ocean of Knowledge but thought it better belonged in 'The Koan' thread just for a bit of diversity and to emphasize the importance in clarity in may give. Cheers.

[botanika]

'wisdom is understanding what we dont know'

einstein

'always be the beginner'

zen

Edited September 26, 2006 by botanika

[Greeny]

Im sorry to everybody if this has already been covered but I was just a little to impatient to respond to keep reading.

"What is the meaning of life?"

For me the most accurate answer would be to take the results of all life to give yourself the largest test field possible. From these results you can make an accurate observation of the mean.

If science has taught us anything its certainty comes only with repetition. The world we live in only repeats its own mistakes we must be coming close to an accurate answer by now. The one thing thats holding us back is out beliefs from the world we grew up in. To make the world perfect we must all start with the same oppertunities and obsticles only then will we agree on what is to be.

Then again im crazy so......

[t st tantra]

felt the need to coment on this.

had trouble with 'confused', felt it more real to aknowledge the we simply dont have enough information.

but talking to others this has meaning for me but not everyone.

t s t .